Are most marriages invalid?

[MJJean]

Somebody should write a book…

I was looking up the stats on Canada vs. US crime statistics (which gives a flavor of at least some of the differences between us) and it looks like the US has 2.5X the murder rate, 16X the reported rapes (???), 3X as much violent crime, etc.

nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Canada/United-States/Crime

So, all in all, I would not expect Canadians to have a rate of annulments identical to the US.

We’re really not that similar.

No, we’re not. I live on the US-Canada border and have a few rl Canadian friends along with a few Canadian friends I know only online. It never ceases to astound me how different we really are culturally. I have had few conversations with my Canadian buddies that didn’t have me shaking my head saying “Really? Here XYZ is no big deal.” or something along those lines.

The sad thing is that most places in the world have more family challenges, rather than fewer. Sometimes, because things used to be better, sometimes because people used to be more inclined to hide their dirty laundry. When it becomes shameful, expensive, or pointless to admit a problem, even people who need help or deserve help won’t look for it.

And even those looking for help might not find it. I’ve run into people online and in real life who have never been told they could even apply for an annulment. These people honestly thought that once married in the Church they could do nothing if the marriage failed. They believe their options are to either reconcile (not always possible) or leave the Church and worship with another (similar) faith. No one ever told them they have the right to apply for annulment. These are also some of the same people who think being divorced alone means they cannot receive Communion.

It seems bad catechesis causes trouble before and after marriage.

 

[pianistclare]

No, we’re not. I live on the US-Canada border and have a few rl Canadian friends along with a few Canadian friends I know only online. It never ceases to astound me how different we really are culturally. I have had few conversations with my Canadian buddies that didn’t have me shaking my head saying “Really? Here XYZ is no big deal.” or something along those lines.

And even those looking for help might not find it. I’ve run into people online and in real life who have never been told they could even apply for an annulment. These people honestly thought that once married in the Church they could do nothing if the marriage failed. They believe their options are to either reconcile (not always possible) or leave the Church and worship with another (similar) faith. No one ever told them they have the right to apply for annulment. These are also some of the same people who think being divorced alone means they cannot receive Communion.
It seems bad catechesis causes trouble before and after marriage.

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^^^^THIS…for sure! I can’t tell you how many people say that their parents were told they were banned from communion after divorce. Not remarriage outside of the church, but divorce. Family problems are very embarrassing to people. They will talk to everyone about it though…just not to their priest.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

And even those looking for help might not find it. I’ve run into people online and in real life who have never been told they could even apply for an annulment. These people honestly thought that once married in the Church they could do nothing if the marriage failed. They believe their options are to either reconcile (not always possible) or leave the Church and worship with another (similar) faith. No one ever told them they have the right to apply for annulment. These are also some of the same people who think being divorced alone means they cannot receive Communion.

It seems bad catechesis causes trouble before and after marriage.

This paragraph just sits wrong with me.

1. Those people are/were not serious Catholic who are involved in their faith. Annulments and divorce are common in any parish life now. Youth Groups, prayer groups, bulletins and homilies. A majority of kids in my old parish are in blended families. You cannot escape it. Unless you are not a serious Catholic and then later decide you want to be one all of the sudden…
2. You say people only believe there are two options, leave the faith, or reconcile. There is a third. Abstaining. But that seems to not be a popular option with those who wish to leave a family and create a new one. However, you state

if the marriage failed.

Which is a false idea. One cannot “get” an annulment because a marriage failed, their either was a marriage, or there was not. So if a valid marriage existed, then, those three options really are the only ones. I know it is nitpicky but statements like that can contribute to the confusion about marriage and annulment. And the last thing we need is more people who think annulment= Catholic Divorce.

1. What you are describing sounds like more of a “immigrant” issue within many parishes. I have met many Hispanic people who have misunderstood as you have described. But I wish to point out that just saying “just ask for an annulment” does nothing to combat the catechists problem. And I am a little tired of people thinking that somehow the US has this annulment thing all figured out and it should be modeled for the rest of the Church.

As a previous poster said, I wish it was uniform in all areas of the Church. But uniform may not mean what some think it means.

Sometimes people make poor choices and the annulment process is not a magic God wand that makes it all better. Sometimes people may have to forgo what they think they “deserve” and live a life of Holiness even if that means keeping a libido in check for their life.

Is that harsh? Yes, but I am tired of people demeaning my marriage by demeaning their own. We live in a world where we cannot say how many people are in a marriage, or what sex they are. No more. I am tired of my marriage not being given the honor it deserves.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

\

^^^^THIS…for sure! I can’t tell you how many people say that their parents were told they were banned from communion after divorce. Not remarriage outside of the church, but divorce. Family problems are very embarrassing to people. They will talk to everyone about it though…just not to their priest.

I heard this a lot from even relatives. I have never found that to be the case. That they were told they could not receive communion by a priest etc. What usually happens is that they hear from somewhere that Catholics cannot get “divorced” spiritually this is true and that divorce and remarriage, ( a vast majority of the situations) cannot receive communion, this gets shortened to “the Church is against me and says I am not worthy to receive” And then later to “The Church is against my whole family and children”

Nevertheless, I seriously doubt the answer these days is to make annulment appear more acceptable and easier to obtain. I doubt very much that will solve the epidemic of failed marriages and empty pews…

 

[Xantippe]

\

^^^^THIS…for sure! I can’t tell you how many people say that their parents were told they were banned from communion after divorce. Not remarriage outside of the church, but divorce. Family problems are very embarrassing to people. They will talk to everyone about it though…just not to their priest.

This a fairly common question on CAF, come to think of it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

This a fairly common question on CAF, come to think of it.

Yeah, and no one seems to be satisfied with the answer of “Talk to your priest” either.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I made a separate thread for further discussion. So as not to derail this one. And for a fresh start.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=12624944#post12624944

 

[Xantippe]

1. You say people only believe there are two options, leave the faith, or reconcile. There is a third. Abstaining. But that seems to not be a popular option with those who wish to leave a family and create a new one.

**Well, a lot of people don’t seem to realize that if it’s just a divorce (rather than divorce plus remarriage), they can receive communion.

That is genuinely an idea in the water. I suspect the issue is that one often hears (in casual speech) that the Church is against divorce, not divorce and remarriage. **

1. What you are describing sounds like more of a “immigrant” issue within many parishes. I have met many Hispanic people who have misunderstood as you have described. But I wish to point out that just saying “just ask for an annulment” does nothing to combat the catechists problem. And I am a little tired of people thinking that somehow the US has this annulment thing all figured out and it should be modeled for the rest of the Church.

**
The “speed” (if several years is the right term for that) of the US annulment tribunals is something that I think should be a model for other countries. The more efficiently the process runs, the easier it is to make sure that witnesses and appropriate paperwork is collected.

And if people do have a good case for nullity, it’s an injustice to leave them hanging for a decade. Whether it’s a yes or a no, people outside the US deserve answers faster than they’ve been getting it. **

Is that harsh? Yes, but I am tired of people demeaning my marriage by demeaning their own. We live in a world where we cannot say how many people are in a marriage, or what sex they are. No more. I am tired of my marriage not being given the honor it deserves.

What? Nobody is demeaning your marriage.

But people who aren’t sure if they were married or not deserve a speedier process for establishing what exactly their situation is.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

What? Nobody is demeaning your marriage.

But people who aren’t sure if they were married or not deserve a speedier process for establishing what exactly their situation is.

I’ve seen it work pretty speedy. Leaving families destroyed. Sometimes when viewed from the eyes of children or teens it is not only the pain of divorce and broken families, but the damage of viewing the Church as somehow sanctioning their parents decisions and their “new” families.

I know of one family who divorced. The woman immediately had a “fiance” 13 months later when the annulment went through, they got married in the Church. Adopted a child and now the other children, (teens) are a freaking mess, not only in their families, but in Church that seemed to speed this situation along.

If one makes the mistake of an invalid marriage I see nothing wrong with a long period of time where they can use that time to deepen their faithfulness to God.

Is this the kind of speed that will make things better? That will educate people about what marriage is in this day and age? About what it is supposed to be. But by all means full american steam ahead, Bigger, faster, now now now,

 

[Xantippe]

I’ve seen it work pretty speedy. Leaving families destroyed. Sometimes when viewed from the eyes of children or teens it is not only the pain of divorce and broken families, but the damage of viewing the Church as somehow sanctioning their parents decisions and their “new” families.

You know, children or teens would still feel betrayed, even if it was 100% rock solid case for annulment (for example, defect of form).

We had one of those happen with a family on the periphery of our social circle, and I can only imagine how the kids took it. But nonetheless, their parents were not married in the Church.

 

[Xantippe]

I’ve seen it work pretty speedy. Leaving families destroyed. Sometimes when viewed from the eyes of children or teens it is not only the pain of divorce and broken families, but the damage of viewing the Church as somehow sanctioning their parents decisions and their “new” families.

I know of one family who divorced. The woman immediately had a “fiance” 13 months later when the annulment went through, they got married in the Church. Adopted a child and now the other children, (teens) are a freaking mess, not only in their families, but in Church that seemed to speed this situation along.

If one makes the mistake of an invalid marriage I see nothing wrong with a long period of time where they can use that time to deepen their faithfulness to God.

Is this the kind of speed that will make things better? That will educate people about what marriage is in this day and age? About what it is supposed to be. But by all means full american steam ahead, Bigger, faster, now now now,

It should not take a decade, and three years is really pushing it.

We often see people on CAF (even in the US) who are around the three year mark.

 

[pianistclare]

I heard this a lot from even relatives. I have never found that to be the case. That they were told they could not receive communion by a priest etc. What usually happens is that they hear from somewhere that Catholics cannot get “divorced” spiritually this is true and that divorce and remarriage, ( a vast majority of the situations) cannot receive communion, this gets shortened to “the Church is against me and says I am not worthy to receive” And then later to “The Church is against my whole family and children”

Nevertheless, I seriously doubt the answer these days is to make annulment appear more acceptable and easier to obtain. I doubt very much that will solve the epidemic of failed marriages and empty pews…

you are correct…they SAID a priest told them, but it was someone else or their assumption because they didn’t bother to ask anyone. My sister swears a priest told her she could receive communion after remarriage without annulment. For years she did against the advice of myself, my other sister who also has a Theology degree, and my mother. She just only wanted to go with what he said despite other priests who said that was incorrect.

I don’t for a minute think that the church will make it “easier”. I think they will get rid of some of the red tape, and get more people on the job to handle the cases though. Streamlining the process and making it run at least efficiently, would be good. Many annulments are NOT granted. Folks assume that you “apply”, pay a fee, and it’s done eventually. Not so. In fact, those who have no grounds get denied almost immediately.
the ones with grounds take forever because they need cooperative witnesses. Which is a big hang-up.

 

[Xantippe]

you are correct…they SAID a priest told them, but it was someone else or their assumption because they didn’t bother to ask anyone. My sister swears a priest told her she could receive communion after remarriage without annulment. For years she did against the advice of myself, my other sister who also has a Theology degree, and my mother. She just only wanted to go with what he said despite other priests who said that was incorrect.

I don’t for a minute think that the church will make it “easier”. I think they will get rid of some of the red tape, and get more people on the job to handle the cases though. Streamlining the process and making it run at least efficiently, would be good. Many annulments are NOT granted. Folks assume that you “apply”, pay a fee, and it’s done eventually. Not so. In fact, those who have no grounds get denied almost immediately.
the ones with grounds take forever because they need cooperative witnesses. Which is a big hang-up.

Come to think of it, if the answer is “no,” it’s very important that the “no” comes fast.

Otherwise, people do tend to start dating, assuming that they will eventually get an annulment.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

You know, children or teens would still feel betrayed, even if it was 100% rock solid case for annulment (for example, defect of form).

We had one of those happen with a family on the periphery of our social circle, and I can only imagine how the kids took it. But nonetheless, their parents were not married in the Church.

Yes. Sometimes I just wish in all this push about divorce remarriage communion and the family that more focus was given to the children, and the fact that no matter what the Church says about going up and sticking your hand or tongue out on Sunday that there is a world of hurt out there yet you almost never see people asking questions about that on CAF, it is just, How can I get what I want as fast as I want it.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Come to think of it, if the answer is “no,” it’s very important that the “no” comes fast.

Otherwise, people do tend to start dating, assuming that they will eventually get an annulment.

That is not the Church’s problem. And it sounds an awful lot like some pre cana people freaking out about when and where their wedding can take place. Should we speed that up too to prevent them from going to the nearest beach and doing something stupid. Those of us with kids know that “do it fast or I will do something dumb” almost never works. And we are children in the Church. Slow and steady is fine by me. ESPECIALLY when emotions run so high as in a divorce.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I don’t for a minute think that the church will make it “easier”. I think they will get rid of some of the red tape, and get more people on the job to handle the cases though. Streamlining the process and making it run at least efficiently, would be good. Many annulments are NOT granted. Folks assume that you “apply”, pay a fee, and it’s done eventually. Not so. In fact, those who have no grounds get denied almost immediately.
the ones with grounds take forever because they need cooperative witnesses. Which is a big hang-up.

This would be my greatest dream in this situation of marriage and family. But sadly, the Church runs like a corporation sometimes and while we all would like more checkers at the checkout line, that almost never makes business sense…

 

[Xantippe]

That is not the Church’s problem. And it sounds an awful lot like some pre cana people freaking out about when and where their wedding can take place. Should we speed that up too to prevent them from going to the nearest beach and doing something stupid. Those of us with kids know that “do it fast or I will do something dumb” almost never works. And we are children in the Church. Slow and steady is fine by me. ESPECIALLY when emotions run so high as in a divorce.

Why isn’t it the Church’s problem for divorced people to get “nos” as quickly as possible and to be able to start making peace as soon as possible with the idea that there isn’t going to be a remarriage?

Pastorally, it sounds like a heck of a good idea to me.

Even in parenting, if the answer is going to be “no” (and you know that already), it can be a very good idea to get that out sooner rather than later.

 

[marymary1975]

ahhh ok. That makes more sense. Though I think it is a cop out rather than looking at the real issue. Even if you cut the annulment in HALF by the fact that 100 percent of US annulments have a non Catholic participant, then we still by far take up more of our fair share. Why is that?

I think the real reason (being myself from outside of the US) is the fact that obtaining an annulment in other countries takes an extremely long amount of time. In Latin America for example, if you are lucky an annulment can take between 12 - 15 years. There are people who wait 20 years for an annulment (my aunt had to wait 22 years). The quickest annulment I know of was obtained in Spain by a friend of mine and it took her nine years. Besides her I don’t know or have heard anyone that got an annulment in less than 12 years and this is a very well known fact by most people. As a result people don’t even bother. I have a few relatives that are divorced and remarried (my own mother between those) that won’t file an annulment because they think the time period is crazy and is really burdensome. My mother has a cousin that she married last year in the church at 76. She had been divorced and civilly remarried. She waited until her first husband died (two years ago) to be able to remarry in the church. When silly me asked her why waited so long she should have filled an annulment, she told me that her first husband would die before getting the annulment. believe it or not, many people have exactly that mentality so they won’t bother with an annulment

 

[babochka]

Look at the statistics. American Catholics account for about 5% of Catholics worldwide, yet more than half of all decrees of nullity are given to U.S. couples. Not by the Vatican but by local tribunals. Either American couples are profoundly different from other couples in the rest of the world, or else there is a problem with the tribunal system in the U.S., at least in practice.

Or the tribunal system in the US is efficient and accessible, in a way that it is not in other countries.

 

[pianistclare]

I think the real reason (being myself from outside of the US) is the fact that obtaining an annulment in other countries takes an extremely long amount of time. In Latin America for example, if you are lucky an annulment can take between 12 - 15 years. There are people who wait 20 years for an annulment (my aunt had to wait 22 years). The quickest annulment I know of was obtained in Spain by a friend of mine and it took her nine years. Besides her I don’t know or have heard anyone that got an annulment in less than 12 years and this is a very well known fact by most people. As a result people don’t even bother. I have a few relatives that are divorced and remarried (my own mother between those) that won’t file an annulment because they think the time period is crazy and is really burdensome. My mother has a cousin that she married last year in the church at 76. She had been divorced and civilly remarried. She waited until her first husband died (two years ago) to be able to remarry in the church. When silly me asked her why waited so long she should have filled an annulment, she told me that her first husband would die before getting the annulment. believe it or not, many people have exactly that mentality so they won’t bother with an annulment

Thanks for posting this. It seems as though we do have more checkout lines in the U.S.
Not trying to be facetious, but I recall posters here on the forums who have asked “Wait…DRE’s are PAID in the U.S.”? In many parishes overseas the only employee is the priest, maybe a part time secretary working one day a week. I would imagine that if the tribunal is located with the Bishop’s office and there is are only couple of priests working it, (along with all the other types of cases that Canon lawyers deal with all the time) it would take forever and a day to get the paperwork read, much less processed.
Recently we had someone who was baptized in Venezuela, in a small mountaintop parish, that had burned down since then. No records. This happens more than one would think, because we Americans have it pretty easy. Need something? Ring them up, no problem, fax things over.
Some parts of the world rely on snail mail and budget of a Dixie cup and a string.
Perhaps this factors in.