Are most people going to Hell?

[Kay_Cee]

I haven’t read this entire thread, so please forgive me if I speak of some points that have already been covered.

First of all, as to “few” being saved. If I had a thousand children, and two of them died in a horrible accident, I too would say “few” were saved. To lose even one beloved child is to lose too many.

Now, as to Hell and God punishing us–

There seems to be a misunderstanding of what Hell is, and what Heaven is too. When you die, you encounter God. Well, God loves all His children, even those who have rejected Him. God can’t stop loving them–even Lucifer–because God is Love. (You might as well ask water to stop being wet as ask God to stop loving.) When God bestows a gift, like His love, He doesn’t take it back. God is not (excuse the politically incorrect term) an Indian giver. We can, of course, despise His Love, but God can’t stop being Love.

Let’s also remember that “Our God is a consuming fire.” (Hebrews 12:29) Are you aware that people in Heaven burn? That’s right–people in Heaven burn. After all, the seraphim are in Heaven, and the word “seraphim” means “burning ones.” Think about it–you can’t fully encounter a Consuming Fire without it burning you.

In other words, you’re going to encounter the consuming fire of God’s love no matter where you end up–Heaven or Hell. For those in Heaven, experiencing the fire of God’s Love will be more pleasurable than you can possibly imagine. After all, what else could the fire of God’s love be to those who love Him, to those who desire the fire of His Love? But, if you totally reject God, if you totally reject His Love, this very same fire will be more painful than you can possibly imagine because you despise God and therefore despise the fire of His Love.

God does not create a Hell in which to punish us. We create it ourselves by choosing to despise Him and the consuming fire of His Love. Lucifer and his demons are Hell, because Hell is despising God’s love. Demons spend eternity burning with hatred for God. *They *make His infinite Love painful because they hate His Love.

As for me, I hope to spend eternity burning with love for my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Lief,

You are explaining the Catholic Faith in a way that arrises from love and the fact that God knows we have weeknesses. On the other hand, many like Predikant explain the Faith in way which arrises from fear and damnation. He sseems to say that we should live in contant fear of God.

I have been trying to justify these two different points. If we live in trembling fear of God, how are we to love him? How are we to do his will out of love if fear is in our hearts. Is it true love when we obey out of object fear?

My fear of God is most similar, I suppose, to a fear you might have of the police. You don’t fear them, but you are aware that if you break the law, they may bust you. So you fear their authority and ability to punish you if you break the law. That helps you, in turn, to respect the law. But you also, more importantly, respect the law because it is good and you love the law.

That’s kind of like how I fear God. I never feel an emotional fear of God, in the sense that “I’m scared of him.” On the other hand, if I didn’t have the fear that God will punish me for my own good if I persistently defy his will without any willingness to change, it would be easier for me to fall into sin.

I think that a father>child analogy is really the best suited one of all on this issue. A good father in a human household will simply give a gentle verbal rebuke if his kid does something bad without knowing it. If the kid does wrong while knowing how bad it is, then the father might give him a very stern verbal rebuke, or if he persists, a spanking. If the kid has no fear of his Dad’s ability to punish him, he will do bad things with impunity. He could easily grow up into a very bad person. So the fear that his Dad can punish him if he does wrong is how we should fear God, but of course like any good Dad, God will only punish after rebukes and if it is clear that there is no other way to convince the person to repent except to punish. And like our relationships with our human fathers, fear of the possibility of punishment for persistent defiance of our fathers’ will is not at the center of the relationship. In fact, the center of our relationship with our fathers is love.

As we get older, we come even to appreciate the spankings as having been good for us, just as humans will one day appreciate the punishments God inflicted on them on Earth because they were for their own good in order to convince them to repent and bring them to heaven.

God’s ability to punish me is therefore actually a comfort to me, because I know that God loves me so much that he will punish me to bring me to repentance (if I ever got to such a bad frame of mind that I persistently sinned against God without any willingness to change, repeatedly rejecting his voice whenever it came to me trying to get me to do right) rather than let me stray from him into Damnation. He will do whatever it takes to see me safely into heaven . King David talked about this too, saying, “thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.” God’s willingness to punish us on Earth to bring us to repentance when he has no other alternative method of reaching us, so that we will be more likely to choose to join him in eternal life, is a grace to humanity.

Our relationships with God are all about love. Even God’s choice to sometimes punish us is part of his love for us. God is Love and all of his actions reveal that love. Love is the core, and it is what we should focus on most.

expectthebest:

I have been trying to justify these two different points. If we live in trembling fear of God, how are we to love him? How are we to do his will out of love if fear is in our hearts. Is it true love when we obey out of object fear?

I hope my explanation above helps.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Here are a few important scripture references to God’s punishments:

Prov 3:11-12 (NIV) My son, do not despise the Lord’s discipline and do not resent his rebuke, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in.

Heb 12:5-8 (NIV) And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: “My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.” Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.

Heb 12:9-11 (NIV) Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

1 Cor 11:32 (Phi) But when God does judge us, he disciplines us as his own sons, that we may not be involved in the general condemnation of the world.

God only punishes for loving reasons, and we only fear God in the sense that we know he can punish us if we knowingly, willfully embrace sin rather than struggling against it, and persist in it rather than repenting of it and trying to change. Only if we are that far gone does it become necessary for God to punish us, unless a little shock prod will help us on our way, but this is not the norm. Gentleness and mercy are his ways, and the love of God should be at the center of our relationships with him.

expectthebest:

I also tend to see these two points differenciated in Jesus and the Church. When I pray and place myself in the arms of Jesus, I feel great love. I feel understanding that I am an imperfect person and I feel forgiveness. When I think of the Church, I feel fear and damnation. I feel like the Church is just waiting to damn everyone it possibly can with infinite technicalities which may get you damned. I feel oppression. I feel the unjust power of prideful men. I feel pain. I think this kind of sums up your post vs some of the others. The God of love vs the God of damnation. For me, these two sides tend to take form in that of Jesus on one side and the Church on the other.

I think that part of this has to do with how people present the teachings of the Church. If we learn from the Church that something is immoral, it helps to look into what the converse of the behavior is, what the moral thing to do is, and why that is a moral thing. Then we can see the value of it and the immoral option becomes automatically repugnant.

And if a parishioner is sinning, the priest should gently correct him, not hammer him with threats of damnation.

Differences in attitude are apparent depending on which Catholic church you spend time in, or what Catholics you spend time with. Catholics are fallible and make mistakes. Don’t let a poor presentation of a Christian truth convince you that that truth itself is bad.

Also, it helps to do each thing the Church teaches as a way of expressing personal love for God . For that’s what the action is. And the resistance of each behavior that the Church teaches is wrong can also become for us a way of telling God we love him and care about his will. That helps to increase our unity with him. It’s kind of like the reason we respect the laws our earthly governments make. There is fear of punishment, but there also is love of the law itself because it is good and it protects us.

expectthebest:

Now, I’m not saying this is universally true for every time and every situation I am in. There are times when I feel love at Mass. Most times I feel very little other than fear. It becomes a challenge to grow in true love when the fear envelopes everything first and foremost. The fear crowds out the love. Am I making any sense?

I certainly understand. I think that you’ve been hammered with some Christian doctrines on an anvil rather than instructed in how wonderful they are, and how they reveal God’s love.

There are a lot of people here who are very loving, though, and there are in the Catholic Church in general. The presentation of Church teaching that you’ve been receiving is not a good one. Don’t let that allow you to question the Church itself or the teaching. The presentation is bad, but there is a lot of glorious and delightful good in the doctrines and teachings themselves, as well as in lots of wonderful Catholics around the world (though people do sin, of course), that you haven’t been exposed to yet as fully as you should have been.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Thank you so much for answering my post Lief. I feel a lot better now. I always start out really trying to avoid serious sin but then I give in sometimes.

Oh, you’re welcome . I’m glad I could help.

 

[Nino]

Me hinks there are a lotta parking places in heaven…its soooo easy to be bad in this most evil world! To be P:C one just has to be for free love,abortion,no win wars, wave the flag but only on cue, be for child porn and public displays of what used to be vulgarity , be silent on out dated moral issue,vote for the lesser of two evils…this is a huge one to swallow every election day…ignore our nation being invaded by slave labor products from an evil empire and also ignore the invasion of our once great nation,of generally nice folks,but who have been trained to ignore immigration requirements and just walk in,work off the books, take jobs away from taxpayers ,get your children into schools without having to pay taxes etc etc…how many do you see fighting all of the above…so few…and as a battle scared vet I can assure you it takes guts…and so few have it…the conditioning process is quite deep and appears permanent! Most of us will go to purgatory…but so many I fear have not lived up to the promise,the sacrifice that Jesus made for us…they fear being called a right wing extremist…what ever that is…watcfh a canine as it prepares for bedtime,it circles round and round then finally plops down…thats the average couch potato…round and round and plop… quo vadus

 

[Lief_Erikson]

I found another scripture reference to back up my points above about the fear of God.
1 John 4:18-19:

God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them. Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love . . . Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the parent loves the child. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome, for whatever is born of God conquers the world. And this is the victory that conquers the world, our faith.

Amen.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

How do people get around Jesus saying “few”?

 

[CentralFLJames]

How do people get around Jesus saying “few”?

The numbers are irrelevant to us personally. The indefinite adjective are only conveyed to impress upon those that will listen the urgency and seriousness in being a good Christian.

It is a grave sin to despair and not trust in God’s salvation. We are wholly dependent on God’s grace and must cooperate with it.

As the saint mentions - “we choose to be saved or damned”. It is OUR CHOICE. We are not limited by a number of the whole that make it. God wants all to be saved. So it is not our place to count or reckon God’s works since this implies a judgement of God and imputes anything less than 100% of our own lack of response on Him rather than on ourselves.

I have reconsidered my earlier statement and now find that it wrong headed for me to try and estimate the numbers saved. We know from the OT that God was very displeased with the census taken in the OT of His People and inflicted a heavy punishment on the Jews for doing this. It is not our place to count God’s works or attempt to measure His efficacy. He saves all that choose to be saved.

2 Samuel 24:10
But David’s heart struck him, after the people were numbered: and David said to the Lord: I have sinned very much in what I have done: but I pray thee, O Lord, to take away the iniquity of thy servant, because I have done exceeding foolishly (in taking the census).

… 15 And the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel, from the morning unto the time appointed, and there died of the people from Dan to Bersabee seventy thousand men.

Here is another more positive way of looking at the matter.
Hebrews 9:28
So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Note the phrase “sins of many”.

Hope and Trust in God is required. We must never despair or give up the good struggle.

James

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus bearing the sins of the many has absolutely nothing to do with the “few” that will be saved because Christ died for all.

It is also in no way despairing to accept Christ’s teching that few are saved since it is altogether possible to be one of those few.

And it is entirely relevant to grasp the teaching that “few” are saved–if that was not true how could indifferentism be combated–if many are saved and most aren’t following the narrow road that leads to eternal life then why travel on it?

And St. Paul’s command to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” is reinforced by Christ’s teaching that few are saved.

I believe that the reason some Catholics will not accept Christ’s teaching that few are saved at face value don’t do so because they are the same crowd who believes that it is rare and unusual to mortaly sin and then die.

Since they believe that way they necessarily believe that most all of the billion Catholics in the world–most who are not saints will be saved so Jesus’ teaching can’t be taken at face value.

These are the same people who think that fear of God is always a bad thing–it isn’t–one can believe in the love and mercy and compassion of God and still work out their salvation with fear and trembling. THe two things are not mutually exclusive.

Tell me something–why is it that many canonized saints are very very fearful of mortal sin and going to Hell and alot of people who aren’t saints don’t worry too much about it?

But I do agree that we CHOOSE to go to either Heaven or hell. God damns no one to Hell–people that go there go of their own free choice.

But the reality is that most do make that dumb free will choice when they don’t have to and if more people were convinced of that fact then maybe they would be FEARFUL enough to WORK out their salvation with trembling!

 

[CentralFLJames]

Jesus bearing the sins of the many has absolutely nothing to do with the “few” that will be saved because Christ died for all.

It is also in no way despairing to accept Christ’s teching that few are saved since it is altogether possible to be one of those few.

And it is entirely relevant to grasp the teaching that “few” are saved–if that was not true how could indifferentism be combated–if many are saved and most aren’t following the narrow road that leads to eternal life then why travel on it?

And St. Paul’s command to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” is reinforced by Christ’s teaching that few are saved.

I believe that the reason some Catholics will not accept Christ’s teaching that few are saved at face value don’t do so because they are the same crowd who believes that it is rare and unusual to mortaly sin and then die.

Since they believe that way they necessarily believe that most all of the billion Catholics in the world–most who are not saints will be saved so Jesus’ teaching can’t be taken at face value.

These are the same people who think that fear of God is always a bad thing–it isn’t–one can believe in the love and mercy and compassion of God and still work out their salvation with fear and trembling. THe two things are not mutually exclusive.

Tell me something–why is it that many canonized saints are very very fearful of mortal sin and going to Hell and alot of people who aren’t saints don’t worry too much about it?

But I do agree that we CHOOSE to go to either Heaven or hell. God damns no one to Hell–people that go there go of their own free choice.

But the reality is that most do make that dumb free will choice when they don’t have to and if more people were convinced of that fact then maybe they would be FEARFUL enough to WORK out their salvation with trembling!

Jerry, I suppose you are talking to me?

As I said previously, virtually all the saints feared The Lord even while loving and revering The Lord. I personally also believe that Fear of The Lord is as essential to salvation as Loving and obeying God since rational fear is a good thing. It is just good sense to value our eternal soul as the only important possession we really have. Fear of losing our soul through offending God is a gift and that fear can keep us on guard and on our toes to help keep us alive. All I am now saying in addition after careful meditation is that we must never take fear of The Lord so far that we doubt Him or push ourselves into despair. Despair is self defeating and a sure way to hell. However, our focus should not be on these “probably” low numbers of total saved. Our focus should not be on hell and damnation. Our focus should be on God and Jesus as saviour and our only means to have eternal live. Yes, we should work out our salvation with trembling. But we should also have confidence that ‘in My Father’s House there are many mansions’ and that God is not going to limit anyone from entering Heaven for lack of vacancy or us underestimating what His Divine Plan entails.

I agree though that it looks like we need to reawaken some basic Fear of The Lord in The Church and wake people up to the fact that being Catholic, or “Christian” in name only is not going to cut it. ‘Not everyone who calls me Lord Lord will enter into my kingdom’. I think this goes straight at those who think they are saved by title and a false sense of self-piety and especially those of the Protestant denominations that embrace gravely deficient doctrines of man that inculculate or pander to the great lie that people can sin with impunity due to God’s Mercy.

The bottom line here is “God is not mocked” and God’s justice is not “relative” to the standards or Zeitgeist of The Age. It should be sobering enough to assume that over the history of humanity there are probably billions of souls in hell. What is important though is that we make sure we choose to go to heaven and make sure we are one of those saved. It’s not a lotto game.

To end it on a more positive note I would like to add that I think it is possible to invoke God’s Mercy on those who have already died by praying the Divine Mercy Chaplet for any we know or souls at large. God is all seeing and omniscient and can see our prayers spoken today as if they were spoken before a person died…

James

 

[Kay_Cee]

I can’t help but wonder if we’re applying definitions of “few” and “many” from our own culture onto the culture in which the Bible was written.

For example, let’s say there are a hundred people in danger. In our culture, if we say few were saved, that would imply a number significantly less than 50%, say only a dozen or so.

But is that what “Many are called but few are chosen” means? What would such a statement have meant to Christ’s audience?

And what did Jesus say when asked this directly? “Someone asked him, ‘Lord, will only a few people be saved?’ He answered them, ‘Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough.’” (Luke 13:23-24)

I can read that two ways:

1. Few is being contrasted with many. Only a few of the many will be saved.
2. *Many *means many over the entire history of humanity. Over the entire history of humanity, many will not be saved. However, you should be concerned with striving to enter in yourself.

I still think that to a God of infinite love, even the loss of one or two would be considered the loss of many, and the salvation of 99% would be considered too few. Shouldn’t we judge this statement by its Source, that is, by Christ’s infinite Love? Doesn’t our Shepherd say he would leave the 99 others to search after just the one that was lost? Doesn’t that mean His Love is so surpasssing that the loss of just this one sheep was too much for Him to bear? In other words, just one lost was too many.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Jesus was telling the truth Kaycee–one can be called by Jesus–just like Judas was and not persevere.

That in no way means that the Elect fall away. one can even be called by Jesus–be born again–and still freely choose to leave.

Before the world was created would jesus klnow that such a thing would happen to some people–of course–but jesus knowing it does not mean that jesus causes it–the person has the free will to go to hell if they choose.

Jesus gives them the freedom to leave–the freedom to leave is not Satan snatching them out of the lord’s hands–that can never happen–but Jesus lets lose his hands if one of the sheep chooses not to be a part of the flock.

Not all evil is Satan generated. Evil can spring from the individual’s will.

and yes jesus loves his sheep so much that he will leave the 99 and search for the one–he’ll even search for one of them if the sheep CHOOSES to leave on its own accord.

Jesus will not FORCIBLY take the sheep back if the sheep is killing itself to stay away.

Would Jesus confront a win the battle against a robber or evil one who wanted the sheep to stay away? Of course!

That’s not the same as saying that Jesus will take the sheep back regardless of the sheep’s will.

The Few who are chosen are the ones who choose not to interfere with the loiving hands of Jesus the sheperd.

it’s not thier choice of anything positive that they do that saves the–only Jesus can save–it’s their non choice of not interfering with jesus’ will that saves them.

And yes there is a big difference between the non choice of not impeding Jesus’ will and the positive choice of choosing jesus’ will.

The non choice saves. The positive choice is impossible for man because man cannot save himself–only Jesus saves

The sheep can’t positively choose to stay in the flock–they can only either choose to leave or surrender their will and make NO CHOICE!.

the reason that there are so few that are saved is that most people do not make the non choice against god and surrender their will so he can do all the saving.

And if they are unrepentent at time of death after committing mortal sin they go to hell.

Not because one sins damns them to Hell–but because when death occurrs a person really has had a fair chance at eternal life–even if they only live seconds.

Death is the final snapshot of exactly who they are. And all the great faith they might have had for many years sometimes does not show what they really are–the snapshot at moment of death does show what they are!

Few are saved. People should believe St. Paul and tremble!

 

[Kay_Cee]

Jesus was telling the truth Kaycee–one can be called by Jesus–just like Judas was and not persevere.

Excuse me? Did I ever imply Jesus did not tell the truth?

And please get my user name right. It’s Kay Cee, not Kaycee. There’s another poster named kaycee, and sometimes people confuse me with him.

That in no way means that the Elect fall away. one can even be called by Jesus–be born again–and still freely choose to leave.

Before the world was created would jesus klnow that such a thing would happen to some people–of course–but jesus knowing it does not mean that jesus causes it–the person has the free will to go to hell if they choose.

Jesus gives them the freedom to leave–the freedom to leave is not Satan snatching them out of the lord’s hands–that can never happen–but Jesus lets lose his hands if one of the sheep chooses not to be a part of the flock.

Not all evil is Satan generated. Evil can spring from the individual’s will.

and yes jesus loves his sheep so much that he will leave the 99 and search for the one–he’ll even search for one of them if the sheep CHOOSES to leave on its own accord.

Jesus will not FORCIBLY take the sheep back if the sheep is killing itself to stay away.

Would Jesus confront a win the battle against a robber or evil one who wanted the sheep to stay away? Of course!

That’s not the same as saying that Jesus will take the sheep back regardless of the sheep’s will.

The Few who are chosen are the ones who choose not to interfere with the loiving hands of Jesus the sheperd.

it’s not thier choice of anything positive that they do that saves the–only Jesus can save–it’s their non choice of not interfering with jesus’ will that saves them.

And yes there is a big difference between the non choice of not impeding Jesus’ will and the positive choice of choosing jesus’ will.

The non choice saves. The positive choice is impossible for man because man cannot save himself–only Jesus saves

The sheep can’t positively choose to stay in the flock–they can only either choose to leave or surrender their will and make NO CHOICE!.

the reason that there are so few that are saved is that most people do not make the non choice against god and surrender their will so he can do all the saving.

And if they are unrepentent at time of death after committing mortal sin they go to hell.

Not because one sins damns them to Hell–but because when death occurrs a person really has had a fair chance at eternal life–even if they only live seconds.

Death is the final snapshot of exactly who they are. And all the great faith they might have had for many years sometimes does not show what they really are–the snapshot at moment of death does show what they are!

Few are saved. People should believe St. Paul and tremble!

I think you misunderstood my point completely.

My point is that what constitutes “few” to us and what constitutes “few” to God may be two different things.

Can you point me to a place in the Bible where scripture defines exactly what “few” means to God? Can you show me a place where it demonstrates that to God “few” means less than, say, 50%?

Unless we have a specific definition of what “few” means to God, it’s pure speculation on our part to say we know what He means by it.

Please note: I’m not saying “few” can’t mean a small percentage. That very well could be what God means. However, what I’m saying is that, lacking a definitive definition, ***we can’t tell exactly what God means by it. ***

God’s ways are not our ways. What constitutes a “day” to us is not necessarily what constitutes a “day” to God. Peter tells us “With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard ‘delay.’” (2 Peter 3:8-9) That is, our human definitions are not necessarily the same as God’s.

So, without a scriptural definition telling us exactly what “few” means to God, it’s arrogant on our part to assign a human definition to it.

Now, is that clear?

 

[expectthebest]

But I do agree that we CHOOSE to go to either Heaven or hell. God damns no one to Hell–people that go there go of their own free choice.

How can a person really “choose” hell when that person, in all his imagination, can’t really percieve what hell really is? How many would “choose” hell after actually being given the infinate knowledge of what hell is? No mortal man can even imagine what hell really is. How then can someone choose what he does not know?

To end it on a more positive note I would like to add that I think it is possible to invoke God’s Mercy on those who have already died by praying the Divine Mercy Chaplet for any we know or souls at large. God is all seeing and omniscient and can see our prayers spoken today as if they were spoken before a person died…

So, God will take his final judgement decision based on how many pray for that soul? I always thought God took his decision based upon the state of that persons soul. No prayer can change that.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

expectthebest, what do you think of my above replies to your question?

How can a person really “choose” hell when that person, in all his imagination, can’t really percieve what hell really is? How many would “choose” hell after actually being given the infinate knowledge of what hell is? No mortal man can even imagine what hell really is. How then can someone choose what he does not know?

This is easy to explain- basically, you have to understand what hell is. It is the state of separation from God.

Whenever anyone on Earth treats another person in an unloving way, they are separating themselves from God, because God is love. Everyone understands, in their moral center, that this is wrong. They just choose to shut that voice out.

Hell is simply the state of complete separation from God. People on Earth choose to do evil, even though they know what good is. They know they should forgive, show mercy, be just and kind, but they choose evil anyway, purposefully choosing to separate themselves from God. Through their actions, which are separate from God in spite of the fact that they know what’s right, they show that they desire Hell. Whenever people do evil, they are becoming participants in hell, and whenever people do right, they are becoming participants in heaven. Heaven is unity with God and Hell is separation from him. God is Love, and all virtues are derivations of love. Everyone knows that it is good and when they act in savage and unloving ways, they are knowingly linking themselves with Hell, choosing to separate themselves from the ways of God. So when they go to Hell, they simply are immersing themselves in the completeness of what they chose for themselves in life.

 

[CentralFLJames]

How can a person really “choose” hell when that person, in all his imagination, can’t really percieve what hell really is? How many would “choose” hell after actually being given the infinate knowledge of what hell is? No mortal man can even imagine what hell really is. How then can someone choose what he does not know?

So, God will take his final judgement decision based on how many pray for that soul? I always thought God took his decision based upon the state of that persons soul. No prayer can change that.

I think the above post answered the first part of this for you.

The second question I will try to answer for you here.

"So, God will take His final judgement decision based on how many pray for that soul?

The short answer is God does not always answer our prayers but neither does He always refuse them either. St. Faustina has revealed to us that God’s Mercy wins out over God’s Justice if a person or others appeal to it. Check her link in my signature. So yes, its possible that God will take into consideration the prayers of others who are in His favor on behalf of another before He makes His final judgement. Here is scriptural support for it as well: Faith of others is efficacious: Matthew 8:5-13, Matthew 15:21-28, Luke 5:20, Luke 7:7; Intercessory Prayer: Tobit 12:12, Romans 15:30, Ephesians 4:3, Ephesians 6:18-19, 2 Thessalonians 1:11, 2 Thessalonians 3:1, Revelation 5:8). Note too that God is timeless and omniscience and can see prayers spoken on behalf of others in a way that transcends time and dispose of a soul in way that is consistent with His Mercy and His Justice (and all revealed truth).

If our petition is so granted God will make a special inward appeal to such a soul to flood it with a superabundance of His repentant grace and use the Holy Spirit to make a final inward plea for contrition (we are told 3 times ‘my sheep hear my voice’ and ‘I will call you each by name’) before final judgement. Again - the choice is the individual’s to make. If they do not respond to the finale grace of repentance through mercy they will die impenetent and blaspheme the Holy Spirit - that is the final and terminal unpardonable sin.

For example, it is especially pleasing to God for His people to offer to Himself the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus as the perfect sacrifice for atonement of sin. In fact Catholics do this at every mass (not to re-crucify Christ, but to ask God to especially call to mind Christ’s suffering and His obedience and permit God’s Mercy win out over His Justice in such cases).

So, final judgement is purely God’s decision based on how the soul responded through life and the state the soul is in at the instant of death and if it responded to a the final petitioned grace of repentance.

We know from scripture as well as from the revelation of the saints that prayer, fasting, acts of charity and mercy are very efficacious in appeasing God’s wrath on ourselves as well as on others for our sakes. We also know that God will extend His Mercy to those who call out to His Mercy with confidence. But not all sinners know this since they never listened to the calling of the Holy Spirit over the course of their lives. But the sinner’s friends are part of God’s salvation plan too! A friend or member of The Church may be able to help save a friend on need of mercy through special and extraordinary intercession.

Never underestimate the value and worth of Christian friends! We Catholics while in a state of grace are a priestly people and have the authority to petition God to extend channels of God’s grace through The Church to those seperated from Christ and The Church! We have no idea how many non-Catholics are saved directly through the merits of The Catholic Church and our prayers but hold in trust that it is substantial.

If in doubt recall the paralyzed man lowered through the roof by his friends to be cured by Jesus. What we hope and trust is that God will hear our petitions and take them as signs of love and take special and exceptional pity on a suffering soul and grant a super abundance of grace and a final opportunity to repent before death. In such a case this can make the difference between a spiritually dead soul being completely forgiven of all sin (a final perfect supernatural inward act of contrition), or sent to purgatory for a severe penance and escaping eternal hell.

I hope this helps.
James

 

[expectthebest]

expectthebest, what do you think of my above replies to your question?

This is easy to explain- basically, you have to understand what hell is. It is the state of separation from God.

Whenever anyone on Earth treats another person in an unloving way, they are separating themselves from God, because God is love. Everyone understands, in their moral center, that this is wrong. They just choose to shut that voice out.

Hell is simply the state of complete separation from God. People on Earth choose to do evil, even though they know what good is. They know they should forgive, show mercy, be just and kind, but they choose evil anyway, purposefully choosing to separate themselves from God. Through their actions, which are separate from God in spite of the fact that they know what’s right, they show that they desire Hell. Whenever people do evil, they are becoming participants in hell, and whenever people do right, they are becoming participants in heaven. Heaven is unity with God and Hell is separation from him. God is Love, and all virtues are derivations of love. Everyone knows that it is good and when they act in savage and unloving ways, they are knowingly linking themselves with Hell, choosing to separate themselves from the ways of God. So when they go to Hell, they simply are immersing themselves in the completeness of what they chose for themselves in life.

What about the phylical pain?

 

[expectthebest]

I think the above post answered the first part of this for you.

The second question I will try to answer for you here.

"So, God will take His final judgement decision based on how many pray for that soul?

The short answer is God does not always answer our prayers but neither does He always refuse them either. St. Faustina has revealed to us that God’s Mercy wins out over God’s Justice if a person or others appeal to it. Check her link in my signature. So yes, its possible that God will take into consideration the prayers of others who are in His favor on behalf of another before He makes His final judgement. Here is scriptural support for it as well: Faith of others is efficacious: Matthew 8:5-13, Matthew 15:21-28, Luke 5:20, Luke 7:7; Intercessory Prayer: Tobit 12:12, Romans 15:30, Ephesians 4:3, Ephesians 6:18-19, 2 Thessalonians 1:11, 2 Thessalonians 3:1, Revelation 5:8). Note too that God is timeless and omniscience and can see prayers spoken on behalf of others in a way that transcends time and dispose of a soul in way that is consistent with His Mercy and His Justice (and all revealed truth).

If our petition is so granted God will make a special inward appeal to such a soul to flood it with a superabundance of His repentant grace and use the Holy Spirit to make a final inward plea for contrition (we are told 3 times ‘my sheep hear my voice’ and ‘I will call you each by name’) before final judgement. Again - the choice is the individual’s to make. If they do not respond to the finale grace of repentance through mercy they will die impenetent and blaspheme the Holy Spirit - that is the final and terminal unpardonable sin.

For example, it is especially pleasing to God for His people to offer to Himself the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus as the perfect sacrifice for atonement of sin. In fact Catholics do this at every mass (not to re-crucify Christ, but to ask God to especially call to mind Christ’s suffering and His obedience and permit God’s Mercy win out over His Justice in such cases).

So, final judgement is purely God’s decision based on how the soul responded through life and the state the soul is in at the instant of death and if it responded to a the final petitioned grace of repentance.

We know from scripture as well as from the revelation of the saints that prayer, fasting, acts of charity and mercy are very efficacious in appeasing God’s wrath on ourselves as well as on others for our sakes. We also know that God will extend His Mercy to those who call out to His Mercy with confidence. But not all sinners know this since they never listened to the calling of the Holy Spirit over the course of their lives. But the sinner’s friends are part of God’s salvation plan too! A friend or member of The Church may be able to help save a friend on need of mercy through special and extraordinary intercession.

Never underestimate the value and worth of Christian friends! We Catholics while in a state of grace are a priestly people and have the authority to petition God to extend channels of God’s grace through The Church to those seperated from Christ and The Church! We have no idea how many non-Catholics are saved directly through the merits of The Catholic Church and our prayers but hold in trust that it is substantial.

If in doubt recall the paralyzed man lowered through the roof by his friends to be cured by Jesus. What we hope and trust is that God will hear our petitions and take them as signs of love and take special and exceptional pity on a suffering soul and grant a super abundance of grace and a final opportunity to repent before death. In such a case this can make the difference between a spiritually dead soul being completely forgiven of all sin (a final perfect supernatural inward act of contrition), or sent to purgatory for a severe penance and escaping eternal hell.

I hope this helps.
James

Thanks. I have two follow up questions.

1. You believe that God gives a soul a chance to repent after death? Is this taught by the church?
2. According to your explanation, If someone has lots of people pray for them, they are at a distinct advantage of being saved. If someone is alone in the world, they won’t have people praying directly for them and therefore may go to hell because of it. How is this just?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Thanks. I have two follow up questions.

1. You believe that God gives a soul a chance to repent after death? Is this taught by the church?
2. According to your explanation, If someone has lots of people pray for them, they are at a distinct advantage of being saved. If someone is alone in the world, they won’t have people praying directly for them and therefore may go to hell because of it. How is this just?

Answers:

1. The church does not teach beyond the level that “at death a soul is judged”. It does not actually define “when” death occurs - God knows when it is. So the Church does not actually define the precise criteria of “when” exactly death occurs and what happens during the mysterious moments of transition from life to death. For example if there is respiratory failure and the brain is shutting down and the heart is in arrest - at what point is actual death manifest in God’s eyes rather than in the doctor’s or witnesses eyes? Only God knows. For example we have many cases of bodies being by all outward appearances “dead” for hours or days and then suddenly and miraculously found to be alive against all explanation.

So, to anwer your question - no, not exactly a chance to repent after “death” as you surmise. But there is a mysterious and sublime interval of time when the body is still conjoined with the soul and spiritual life and spiritual death are yet to be declared settled by God’s final judgement. St. Faustina revealed that there is a very brief interval, just a few moments by our reckoning (but perhaps “spiritually long” in supernatural reckoning) where each soul is given a final opportunity to petition God’s Mercy. My understanding in this area is formed entirely from the Divine Mercy devotion and revelation - and it does not contradict in anyway Church teaching. From this and private insight I believe that in this mysterious interval a spiritually dead soul (one in mortal sin) that has never before had a substantial relationship with God while alive on earth is suffering the fatal spiritual consequence of severe pride. There is a real spiritual arrogance that makes it impossible for this soul on its own to say “Mercy Lord!”. Such a soul will thus typically be too spiritually arrogant and distant from any memory of a relationship with God to even imagine to petition God’s mercy on its own. Without an external or supernatural intervention such a mortally wounded soul that has not yet repented before the final death throws have commenced has a very small chance of recollecting any relational memory of God to escape its life long choice of rejecting God through a petition to mercy.

This is where friends and The Church can intervene and petition God to let His Mercy win out over His Justice by placing the undeniable Love of His Son and His Passion before God and the pitiful soul in such a way that God almost can not refuse to grant Mercy. God essentially finds the combined intervention and faith in Jesus’ sway with God so perfectly Just and pleasing to Him that the act of Divine Mercy becomes Justice. It is still up to the soul to respond to God’s saving grace in these final moments. But we have assurances that the prayers and devotion are so compelling that they can’t really fail.

Bottom Line: Pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet and hope on God’s Mercy. Better yet - get some Catholic friends and ask them to say these prayers for you and your loved ones. It’s that powerful!

1. A person who has many people who love them enough to pray for them does indeed have a special advantage over someone who does not. This is why Christ told us to pray for our enemies - they need God’s grace in a special way and God is displeased with those who persecute His own. Also know that many Catholics make general intercessions to God on a regular basis (daily - even hourly) and perform special “heroic acts” where we ask God (often through a special favored saint such as Mary) to grant that the grace released from their prayers be given to a soul most able to benefit from or most in need. God is Just and God does not shed his precious grace in a way that is not fair not in a way to be wasted. No prayer is every wasted. Further, God has a special love for those that are all alone in the world (especially widows, orphans, the downtrodden etc.). You can rest assured that Jesus was not kidding when He said “blessed are the poor in spirit for the kingdom of heaven is theirs”.

James

 

[upciguy26]

Even when I try to be a good person, I am always afraid of going to hell because of the Bible mentioning how few actually go to heaven. It is scary to me!

Karen

This is good to have fear… but do not serve God out of fear of going to Hell… but serve God because you love Jesus Christ and want to live for him with all your Heart. If you seek the kingdom of God you will find it. The holy Spirit is our guide. God’s SPirit will empower believers to live for him.

Acts 1:8
Acts 2:1-4