Are most people going to Hell?

[CentralFLJames]

Well i trust my mother, who trusts god, so do i trust god by default? But because my father is bhuddist and i trust him also, as does my mother… errrrr… does it cancel out or because my mother also trusts my father i get -1?

Why would you be so silly as to apply a sophomoric numerical metric to “trust” ? Either you trust a person in their area of competency or you do not. Why would you even naturally be inclined to go down this path with this flippant attitude to even imagine that eternity and our relationship with the Creator can be evaluated in a numbers game; as if was a score and probability? Does not the possibility of eternity merit more serious consideration?

Even if you are being completely flippant your manner and style reflects a very insincere attitude and sour outlook on life that is not conducive to discovering truth. This also reflects an unnatural disingenousness and probably a learned attitude that someone other than nature or natural reasoning taught you. So if you ask me you are clearly already letting (e.g. trusting) somone else influence and cloud your thinking. Did you make a conscious decision to permit some other person influence your entire outlook or are you just parroting what you picked up here and there randomly in life? Why not go with something a bit more adult and mature in thinking and with something more credible?

The question is who to trust. Note that this fundamental question implies a deficiency and a human need. The need is lack of possession or access to seemingly vital organic knowledge that lies outside of our own individual experience. After all we are rational beings - some more so than others. So perhaps another question to ask oneself is ‘is salvation, if such a thing exists, a matter of discerning which specific information and knowledge we need to get from others or does this information come to us freely by some external benevolent action as a condition and right of our existence’?

The only natural model we all get comes from mom and dad. As a child you relied on mom to breast feed you to keep you alive and on dad to provide for the family and later show you the skills necessary for providing for yourself someday later in life. Behold, it is now “later in life” and you no longer depend on mom and dad for everything in life. It is time to feed yourself and stand on your own two feet. It is time to make your own life and think for yourself and give your mother and father something to be proud of. Time marches on and it’s time to start asking serious questions and making serious decisions. It’s time to listen to hear of God is telling you something and its time to seek God.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

See, it’s no different than dirty politics. You present those you don’t agree with as “one of those people” who “just don’t get it” and believe in “conspiracy theories”.

What absolute arrogant **** all this is. I’ve been sold a bunch of garbage since I was 2 years old. You just simply view the world as “us against them” and you conveniently believe that there’s a place called heaven for you and a place called hell for everyone that doesn’t fall in line with your arrogant ****.

There’s simply nothing here of value. People are just as self serving here as anywhere else in the world. You see what you want to see. Your ideas simply don’t stand up to the most basic and valid questions, so you (like most other Christians) lash out like a child.

It seems to me you are the one ranting here like a child milde. The analogy with dirty politics is just some trite cliche that has some cultural significance to you but has no meaning or validity whatsoever here in this context. You should step back and look at yourself objectively. You are so focused on your own perspective and so angry over your experiences as a child that your lack of faith makes you want to lash out at those who have faith since it troubles you that others see things in a different way - thus the hypocrisy, hubris and the tirades come out. You think your position is superior to all others - plain and simple. So it is you who sets yourself up in opposition to form the “we” and “me” victim mentality that we always see in the tortured minds of those who can’t reconcile their own identity with their inner nature. You came to these forums of your own free will knowing full well your values conflict with the norms here. Therefore you placed yourself into a we-they mentality. You rant because “we” “just don’t get it” that you are right and we are wrong. I presented highly credible evidence of what I believe in. All you returned was a tirade. Why not discuss rather than rant? You might learn something. If not then spare yourself the self torture and just leave…

James

 

[milde]

If not then spare yourself the self torture and just leave…

Done.

 

[isaiah_9v6]

Doesn’t the Church teach that not wanting to go to Mass on Sunday and wilfully staying home will send you to Hell if you die right that instant?

This is really troubling and it’s making me have a lot of doubts because I can’t believe that a loving Father would let most of His children burn for eternity for trivial things like missing Mass without good reason.

Are you kidding me!!! Then you must not believe that a
loving Father would let his Son die horribly on a cross. Or that we do not need to obey the commandments, they are just nice suggestions! God is who he is, not who you believe he is.:nope: Yes, a loving father would let His children burn for eternity… Because he loves us so much he gave us free will. If we reject his Love by sinning, without repenting we are telling God that we do not need him:tsktsk: so he will not force us to obey.
If we go to Hell we choose to go there not because God whants to see us Suffer…

God Bless

 

[melbourne_guy]

Are you kidding me!!! Then you must not believe that a
loving Father would let his Son die horribly on a cross.

Thats right, i dont think any loving father would, would you watch your son get tortured?

Or that we do not need to obey the commandments, they are just nice suggestions!

If your son broke a law, something as simple as lieing or even as grave as murder, would you burn him for all of eternity? only answer if you actually have kids.

God is who he is, not who you believe he is

His actually who some primitive people from 2000 years ago believed him to be.

Yes, a loving father would let His children burn for eternity.

I think humans have much more compassion than the God of the bible. Think of it this way, the legal system in most western countries will only give you a certain amount of time in prison according to the crime you have committed, if you steal you may get 1 year, if you murder 10 people you may get 200 years in prison, but the punishment is only finite because we believe in rehabilitation, because of our great compassion. God doesnt believe in rehabilitation or the ability to change anyone, he just burns people forever, you cant even contemplate eternity in your mind. He could just as easily totally anihilate the person into nothingness but no he wants a sick revenge, i guess he cant practice what he preaches and turn the other cheek .

Because he loves us so much he gave us free will. If we reject his Love by sinning, without repenting we are telling God that we do not need him:tsktsk:

no not really, most people are going to hell for not practicing your brand of religion, catholicism, mostly because they were raised with a different religion but a percentage reject it because theres no evidence for it. Nobodys rejecting God, we just want some evidence for him, id gladly worship him if i saw some.

If we go to Hell we choose to go there not because God whants to see us Suffer…

God Bless

its not about who sent us there, theres no problem with punishing someone if there doing the wrong thing. The problem we have is with the stupidity of the punishment.

 

[onmyknees]

no not really, most people are going to hell for not practicing your brand of religion, catholicism, mostly because they were raised with a different religion but a percentage reject it because theres no evidence for it. Nobodys rejecting God, we just want some evidence for him, id gladly worship him if i saw some.

melbourne-guy, The Catholic Church does not say that people who do not practice Catholicism will go to hell. Read the catechism. Many do not know what the Church teaches and are basically good people. We do not know who will be saved. Jesus is the judge and anyone who is saved will be saved through Jesus Christ who started the Catholic Church. I don’t need evidence because I have a gift of faith but this is history. There is plenty of evidence. There are many letters from the first Church fathers who knew some of the first apostles who were with Jesus. You believe history books right? Even the History channel has shown proof of the places, where the first Catholics were hiding in caves to say mass so they would not be persecuted and put to death.

 

[Bonarges]

Let’s see, Our Lady of Fatima said most souls were going to Hell, at least at that time. I see no reason to think people are any better morally today than at that time. Our Lord said the same thing in the Gospels, albeit in a different way. The saints repeat this same fact. The Great Dogma of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus reinforces everything said before. And when you consider that most Catholics deny the reality of the Eucharist as well as the authority of The Catholic Church in many areas, it is simply a matter of default that most will be damned. Should be a big blasphemous, Helli-sh affair, indeed.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

no not really, most people are going to hell for not practicing your brand of religion, catholicism, mostly because they were raised with a different religion but a percentage reject it because theres no evidence for it. Nobodys rejecting God, we just want some evidence for him, id gladly worship him if i saw some.

Scientific experiments have been done on people who have supernatural experiences, such as the visionaries from Medjugorje, with pretty amazing results, and they also have been performed on miraculously impacted objects, with likewise impossible results (by human standards, impossible ), such as
the tilma imprinted from Heaven with the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, or the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano.

Do look at those articles, if evidence would convince you . These are scientific studies backing Christianity’s truth.

Here’s another strong evidence. Your own eyes may convince you of the reality and supernatural power of Marian apparitions.

Do look at this article. The Virgin Mary appeared hovering above a church of Alexandria just about daily for over a year, sometimes for hours at a time. She was photographed, and was seen by millions of people. Miraculous healings occurred, such as blind people or lame people being instantly cured, and people saw doves shining with light and angels soaring in the heavens, and a wonderful aroma of incense rising from the earth. And this was millions of people who saw it, of a vast variety of religious backgrounds, and it was photographed by the international press and appeared in all the world’s major newspapers. The president of Egypt also came to the site and saw the apparitions. The photographs show clearly a robed human figure shining with light, with a halo over her head. One of them also shows very distinctly a dove also shining with light, hovering directly over her head.
zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun1.htm

 

[onmyknees]

Scientific experiments have been done on people who have supernatural experiences, such as the visionaries from Medjugorje, with pretty amazing results, and they also have been performed on miraculously impacted objects, with likewise impossible results (by human standards, impossible ), such as
the tilma imprinted from Heaven with the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, or the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano.

Do look at those articles, if evidence would convince you . These are scientific studies backing Christianity’s truth.

Here’s another strong evidence. Your own eyes may convince you of the reality and supernatural power of Marian apparitions.

Do look at this article. The Virgin Mary appeared hovering above a church of Alexandria just about daily for over a year, sometimes for hours at a time. She was photographed, and was seen by millions of people. Miraculous healings occurred, such as blind people or lame people being instantly cured, and people saw doves shining with light and angels soaring in the heavens, and a wonderful aroma of incense rising from the earth. And this was millions of people who saw it, of a vast variety of religious backgrounds, and it was photographed by the international press and appeared in all the world’s major newspapers. The president of Egypt also came to the site and saw the apparitions. The photographs show clearly a robed human figure shining with light, with a halo over her head. One of them also shows very distinctly a dove also shining with light, hovering directly over her head.
zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun1.htm

 

[onmyknees]

Lief Erikson,
Hi, I did not write that quote it was written by melbourne guy so I hope he sees your wonderful response and the one that I wrote to him a page back.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Lief Erikson,
Hi, I did not write that quote it was written by melbourne guy so I hope he sees your wonderful response and the one that I wrote to him a page back.

Oh, okay . I was finding your username a little peculiar, in view of what I’d thought you’d said .

 

[Gene_Church]

Lets pray that we can find ourselves within God’s infinite mercy. I can tell you, I need it.

 

[melbourne_guy]

Oh, okay . I was finding your username a little peculiar, in view of what I’d thought you’d said .

ROFL!!!

 

[melbourne_guy]

melbourne-guy, The Catholic Church does not say that people who do not practice Catholicism will go to hell. Read the catechism. .

hmm i think its by my understanding that the rcc teaches that if you dont know about catholicism and you lead a good life then you may make it into heaven. Whereas if you do know about the rcc and still do not accept it then its automatic eternal damnation as your not recieving the body of christ. This is ridiculous because its now 2008, its safe to say the majority of the world has heard of the roman catholic church even in the third world.

Many do not know what the Church teaches and are basically good people. We do not know who will be saved.

Why make the assumption that you dont know who will and wont be saved when the catechism clearly states those with mortal sins will end up in hell and those with venial sins will end up in heaven. The Rcc has labeled the majority of sins mortal, and unless confessed most people will go to hell just like jesus said “the road to hell is wide and many find it , but the road to heaven is narrow and few find it” that came straight from jesus’s mouth.

I don’t need evidence because I have a gift of faith but this is history.

Faith is so mindless, how can you believe something without evidence. Everyone from every religion needs faith, the jews the muslims, the pagans , the hindus, they all need it because if the survival of their religion relied upon solid evidence they wouldnt have a religion. Clergy try there hardest to push this thing called faith more and more because the younger generations are starting to realise that faith is just a tool to get you to believe in something they cant prove.

There is plenty of evidence.

no there isnt.

There are many letters from the first Church fathers who knew some of the first apostles who were with Jesus.

I used to be catholic and yeh those letters did help re affirm my faith, but to me now there just hear say. Nothing more then 2000 yearold testimony made by people i dont know therefor i dont trust.

You believe history books right?

no not really, history books are filled with stories about gods of thunder and water etc. i dont believe in any of them.

Even the History channel has shown proof of the places, where the first Catholics were hiding in caves to say mass so they would not be persecuted and put to death.

yeh, the history channel is also notorious for making documentries about the forgotten books of the bible, and how christianity came from paganism.

 

[melbourne_guy]

Scientific experiments have been done on people who have supernatural experiences, such as the visionaries from Medjugorje, with pretty amazing results, and they also have been performed on miraculously impacted objects, with likewise impossible results (by human standards, impossible ), such as
the tilma imprinted from Heaven with the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, or the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano.

Do look at those articles, if evidence would convince you . These are scientific studies backing Christianity’s truth.

Here’s another strong evidence. Your own eyes may convince you of the reality and supernatural power of Marian apparitions.

Do look at this article. The Virgin Mary appeared hovering above a church of Alexandria just about daily for over a year, sometimes for hours at a time. She was photographed, and was seen by millions of people. Miraculous healings occurred, such as blind people or lame people being instantly cured, and people saw doves shining with light and angels soaring in the heavens, and a wonderful aroma of incense rising from the earth. And this was millions of people who saw it, of a vast variety of religious backgrounds, and it was photographed by the international press and appeared in all the world’s major newspapers. The president of Egypt also came to the site and saw the apparitions. The photographs show clearly a robed human figure shining with light, with a halo over her head. One of them also shows very distinctly a dove also shining with light, hovering directly over her head.
zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun1.htm

yeh i relied on those miracles and apparitons alot when i was a catholic to reaffirm the little bit of faith i had, but they just dont cut it anymore. Not enough independent studies have been done on any of them. Every religion has had its miracles from the hindu statue of the elephant that could drink milk to the islamic scripture found in fruit. There all forgeries as far as i can tell, there have been many catholics throughout history that have been found to fake miracles like stigmata and bleeding statues. I dont trust these miracles and i dont trust the people who report them.

 

[dcdurel]

The Catechism quotes some saints.
Nothing is equal to prayer; for what is impossible it makes possible, what is difficult, easy… For it is impossible, utterly impossible, for the man who prays eagerly and invokes God ceaselessly ever to sin.[[39]](file:///home/dennis/Documents/Church%20Docs/CATECHISM%20OF%20THE%20Catholic%20Church.html#25G39)Those who pray are certainly saved; those who do not pray are certainly damned[[40]](file:///home/dennis/Documents/Church%20Docs/CATECHISM%20OF%20THE%20Catholic%20Church.html#25G40)

 

[Lief_Erikson]

yeh i relied on those miracles and apparitons alot when i was a catholic to reaffirm the little bit of faith i had, but they just dont cut it anymore. Not enough independent studies have been done on any of them. Every religion has had its miracles from the hindu statue of the elephant that could drink milk to the islamic scripture found in fruit. There all forgeries as far as i can tell, there have been many catholics throughout history that have been found to fake miracles like stigmata and bleeding statues. I dont trust these miracles and i dont trust the people who report them.

How can you possibly know they’re all fakes?

 

[tm30]

I agree that it’s not necessarily trivial to deliberately miss Mass, but is it really bad enough to merit ETERNAL TORTURE IN HELL?

I don’t think so. It just doesn’t seem loving to let a human being (who otherwise could be a good human being who helps the poor, loves his family etc.) TO BURN FOREVER for having a day of selfishness and wanting to watch a movie instead of driving to Church and spending an hour there.

What if you were God, would you burn people for missing Mass?

By deliberately and LITERALLY separating themselves by God (in the Eucharist), in choosing not to go to Mass, they are already, definitionally, in Hell, though not experiencing the infinite loss. So, if people are willing to literally choose hell right now, why is an eternal hell unfair?

Atheists help the poor and love their families, too. Are they fit for heaven, too? Granted, in faith, we hope and pray that those of our brethren who occasionally miss Mass will be the object of God’s mercy and be inspired to confess their sin and go every week. But we can’t be presumptive that, well, I’m a good guy, so THIS sin doesn’t count. If I’m a practicing Catholic, my work as part of the body of Christ is greater and more important than one who doesn’t participate on a regular basis. If I sin, it has a greater impact, therefore, on the Church body as a whole, therefore the sin is greater and demands greater satisfaction.

If someone who goes to Mass regularly has a selfish episode, it’s an even greater insult to God, since one who is so close should have no inclination whatsoever to choose a movie over fulfilling the obligation of going to Mass. It’s a much greater victory for Satan to keep a practicing Catholic from Mass without extenuating circumstances, than it is for a lukewarm Catholic to show up only at Christmas and Easter.

As for the last question, I would refer you back to the fact that people choose to separate themselves already. God has no need of telling people where to go when we die. Once we are in eternity we cannot change our disposition toward God. We don’t get a chance to think things over. Our free will choice occurs here. And once it’s over, there’s no turning back or changing our minds.

Truthfully, I used to think as you do. And then someone said something that cleared it all up. Look at that cross. Look at that suffering. THAT is the price of sin.

 

[tm30]

yeh i relied on those miracles and apparitons alot when i was a catholic to reaffirm the little bit of faith i had, but they just dont cut it anymore. Not enough independent studies have been done on any of them. Every religion has had its miracles from the hindu statue of the elephant that could drink milk to the islamic scripture found in fruit. There all forgeries as far as i can tell, there have been many catholics throughout history that have been found to fake miracles like stigmata and bleeding statues. I dont trust these miracles and i dont trust the people who report them.

There have been many false “miracles”. These are found to be either man-made, or do not constitute “supernatural” events.

That said, there are many authentic, supernatural miracles. The difference between the accepted and un-accepted is that non-supernatural miracles can be performed by angels or demons or man himself. Only God can perform a supernatural miracle, as in the Eucharistic miracles, the miracle of the sun at Fatima, medical impossibilities, etc.

The Hindu and Muslim miracles you mention are can be performed by demons or angels (or men), and so, do not bear the thumbprint of God. A demon cannot change the visible species of the Eucharist from bread to flesh. There have been plenty of independent studies done on the Eucharistic miracles. How much is enough?

As Jesus said, blessed are those who do not see, but believe. I hope you come to believe.

 

[onmyknees]

yeh i relied on those miracles and apparitons alot when i was a catholic to reaffirm the little bit of faith i had, but they just dont cut it anymore. Not enough independent studies have been done on any of them. Every religion has had its miracles from the hindu statue of the elephant that could drink milk to the islamic scripture found in fruit. There all forgeries as far as i can tell, there have been many catholics throughout history that have been found to fake miracles like stigmata and bleeding statues. I dont trust these miracles and i dont trust the people who report them.

melbourne_guy, I feel so sad for you. The Church really takes there time investigating these miracles before they approve of any of them. I know St. Padre Pio had the stigmata and I believe he was alive in the 90’s. Fatima, was also in the papers. I know I’m not going to get you to just start believing again so what if you just took the leap of faith again and lived out your life as a orthodox Catholic, receiving the sacraments and all the graces to help you. Then when you die if it is not true, you will have lived a life full of love, forgiveness and truth. If it is true and you win the race,"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a great voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them, he will He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.” Rev.21:1-4 This is my favorite chapter in the New Testament. Praying for you, Katie