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coda
Guest
For those with faith, no explaining is needed— for those without faith , none is adequate.
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teak421
Guest
We have free will. God has the luxury of knowing the outcome, but we do not.
teak
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melbourne_guy
Guest
Hey got any sources besides catholic websites?
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melbourne_guy
Guest
Very true too many to count.
Accoridng to the catholic church there is yes.
Lol this is classic comedy. When the rcc approves a miracle god did it when they dont or it comes from another religion, just blame demons.
How do you know angels or demons cant, are you making this stuff up or are you getting it from the catechism?
there were no medical impossibilites at fatima, lourdes or anywhere else.
All catholic miracles can be performed by men, just like the hindu ones and the muslim ones and the protestant ones and the voodoo ones and the pagan ones etc.
now your just speaking gibberish.
point me to just one made by an athiest scientist, and not from a catholic website , then ill get back to you.
I have a frog that talks english sitting in my room,blessed are those who do not see, but believe.
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melbourne_guy
Guest
You’ll have to forgive us non-catholics when we say" the church is not the most trusted organisation"
Oh this is enough, im slamming down the brakes. I asked for evidence for God now i have to go through and refute every documented catholic miracle theres ever been! Most if not all of these miracles dont have proper independent sources, You’d think that events that were suposodely supernatural, meaning they broke the laws of physics would have pages and pages of scientific studies on them !! All i get is small catholic websites promoting this stuff. im going to bed. goodnite.ZZZZzzzzZZZZ
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Michael_Francis
Guest
**Please remember to maintain the highest possible standards of charity as per the Forum Rules and Banned Topics.
Remember also that sarcasm of humor do not always communicate well in online postings.
Charity
Guidelines for Posting in the Apologetics Forum
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http://forums.catholic-questions.or...highlight=APOLOGIST:+Advice+staff#post1203753
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MF
Remember also that sarcasm of humor do not always communicate well in online postings.
Charity
Guidelines for Posting in the Apologetics Forum
Respect for the Reputation of Persons
http://forums.catholic-questions.or...highlight=APOLOGIST:+Advice+staff#post1203753
How To Report A Problem Post**
MF
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coda
Guest
Why do you bother “wasting” your time on such “small” catholic websites… obviously you have it all “figured” out, which by the way, you will NEVER do… If you would like to have your ignorance refuted/ debated/ debunked{ which would be impossible even if Christ Himself were standing in front of you] ask someone more “prepared” for your angle of attack… Try the catholic bishop in your area,or the vatican if you really want " answers". Faith answers what we cannot–{doesnt sound good to cynics and skeptics though}-- but works fine for most of the world’s inhabitants. For those with faith, no additional proof is needed. For those without faith, none would be good enough… I guess youll have to take your chances, and so will I. And countless multitudes currently shaking the dust from our collective feet} . I much prefer the deck HEAVILY stacked on my side… BTW The Catholic Church NEVER, EVER, at ANY time said that ANYONE was, is or would be in hell… check your catechism again… but youll need to be a little less obtuse when attempting to digest it.You’ll have to forgive us non-catholics when we say" the church is not the most trusted organisation"
Oh this is enough, im slamming down the brakes. I asked for evidence for God now i have to go through and refute every documented catholic miracle theres ever been! Most if not all of these miracles dont have proper independent sources, You’d think that events that were suposodely supernatural, meaning they broke the laws of physics would have pages and pages of scientific studies on them !! All i get is small catholic websites promoting this stuff. im going to bed. goodnite.ZZZZzzzzZZZZ
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Well its clear that you are not Prince Charming. Does your frog also happen to know how to type at the PC and is he in here hoping to find Cinderella giving away mercy kisses in exchange for your 2 cents?
James
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Lief_Erikson
Guest
Sure, I originally saw some of that stuff on non-Catholic websites, so I can try and dig that up for you. But focusing on that ignores my point.
How can you possibly know all the miracles are fakes?
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paramedicgirl
Guest
Are you forgetting about the Confessional? If you miss a Sunday Mass out of laziness or selfishness, it is a mortal sin and must be forgiven in the Sacrament of Confession. Those who die with an unforgiven mortal sin on their soul do not die in the grace of God. Therefore they have chosen hell.
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onmyknees
Guest
Oh this is enough, im slamming down the brakes. I asked for evidence for God now i have to go through and refute every documented catholic miracle theres ever been! Most if not all of these miracles dont have proper independent sources, You’d think that events that were suposodely supernatural, meaning they broke the laws of physics would have pages and pages of scientific studies on them !! All i get is small catholic websites promoting this stuff. im going to bed. goodnite.ZZZZzzzzZZZZ
Reply With Quote
melbourne_guy, I’m sorry that I made you so frustrated. You see I am a revert back to the Catholic Church. I’m just so happy and our faith is so beautiful that I want to share it with everyone so they can believe too.
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Christophus
Guest
I will begin by admitting I haven’t read but the first few pages of this lengthy thread.
That said, many people seem to be overlooking the basic concepts of culpability with regards to levels of ignorance.
Are most people going to hell? We cannot make such a judgment, as it is, above all, not ours to make.
Secondly, we must account for those whose ignorance is invincible. Some will never encounter the truth of Christ and His teaching for various reasons: poor education and upbringing, mental and emotional disorders, etc.
Obviously, there is the fundamental truth that “God’s law is written on the human heart,” per the introduction to the CCC. That said, there are still those whose hearts and mental judgments have been clouded by the times we live in, by sin, and by horrible error on the part of Christians.
I think the one and only worthwhile answer to this question is this: “Don’t waste time asking if most people are going to hell. Get your butt into gear. Pray for those who are wandering in darkness, the lost, the despairing, those who haven’t been blessed to know God’s truth. And most importantly, WITNESS TO TRUTH by your constant service, rooted in and love and made manifest in action.”
Jesus very clearly states this in terms of eternal salvation and damnation in Mt. 25: 31-46. “Whatever you do (or don’t do) to the least of my brothers, you do (or don’t do to me.)”
Let’s get out there and serve Christ in the distressing disguises of our poor brothers and sisters.
Chris
That said, many people seem to be overlooking the basic concepts of culpability with regards to levels of ignorance.
Are most people going to hell? We cannot make such a judgment, as it is, above all, not ours to make.
Secondly, we must account for those whose ignorance is invincible. Some will never encounter the truth of Christ and His teaching for various reasons: poor education and upbringing, mental and emotional disorders, etc.
Obviously, there is the fundamental truth that “God’s law is written on the human heart,” per the introduction to the CCC. That said, there are still those whose hearts and mental judgments have been clouded by the times we live in, by sin, and by horrible error on the part of Christians.
I think the one and only worthwhile answer to this question is this: “Don’t waste time asking if most people are going to hell. Get your butt into gear. Pray for those who are wandering in darkness, the lost, the despairing, those who haven’t been blessed to know God’s truth. And most importantly, WITNESS TO TRUTH by your constant service, rooted in and love and made manifest in action.”
Jesus very clearly states this in terms of eternal salvation and damnation in Mt. 25: 31-46. “Whatever you do (or don’t do) to the least of my brothers, you do (or don’t do to me.)”
Let’s get out there and serve Christ in the distressing disguises of our poor brothers and sisters.
Chris
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Abbadon
Guest
Well I tend to agree with alot of guy from Melbourne’s points. For me it’s not so much that they are fake, but its that the correlation is incorrect. As in the association. My best example for this is Who creates the thunder, oh the mighty Thor of course.
We are attributing very natural phenomenon to a fictional cause. Rather than looking for the answer we are fixing a pre-thought up if you will solution. Which in it’s self is no real answer.
I mean really what sort of an answer is “god did it”. Just imagine what the world would be like if we had left all our answers to “god did it”. Why do people get sick and how do they get better?
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mrpathetic
Guest
The article left me extremely depressed, even to the point of despair.
It is now hard to even go to my Mass on Sundays, with this realization. I am lucky enough to attend a mass where the pews are packed on Sundays. I attend a large parish on the outskirts of Houston. Of the thousands of people who attend Mass there every Sunday, are all but a few destined for Hell? Will any of them receive salvation?
The parish also has a very large CCE program, with hundreds of pre-teens, teenagers and young adults who come to learn the faith. All of them are past the age of reason. I counsel many of these youths, and most are devout Christians, who love and serve the Lord. Are they condemned as well?
What of the members of my own family? What of those that are already deceased? Many were true and faithful Catholics. Are all of them condemned?
Am I missing something from this article? Is our shot at redemption only one in thousands, as the author states? If so, isn’t the pursuit of salvation pointless?
I am faithful to the Lord, and keep his commandments. I try to put my faith into action. I try to lead a life of charity, and avoid sin wherever I can. Is this not enough? I know many others who did the same, and have already died. Are they in Hell, and will I join them someday?
I agree with some posters who have responded to this article - it can almost serve to undermine faith, rather than bolster it. It is very depressing. I am going through a tough time psychologically and emotionally right now, and this does not help.
It is now hard to even go to my Mass on Sundays, with this realization. I am lucky enough to attend a mass where the pews are packed on Sundays. I attend a large parish on the outskirts of Houston. Of the thousands of people who attend Mass there every Sunday, are all but a few destined for Hell? Will any of them receive salvation?
The parish also has a very large CCE program, with hundreds of pre-teens, teenagers and young adults who come to learn the faith. All of them are past the age of reason. I counsel many of these youths, and most are devout Christians, who love and serve the Lord. Are they condemned as well?
What of the members of my own family? What of those that are already deceased? Many were true and faithful Catholics. Are all of them condemned?
Am I missing something from this article? Is our shot at redemption only one in thousands, as the author states? If so, isn’t the pursuit of salvation pointless?
I am faithful to the Lord, and keep his commandments. I try to put my faith into action. I try to lead a life of charity, and avoid sin wherever I can. Is this not enough? I know many others who did the same, and have already died. Are they in Hell, and will I join them someday?
I agree with some posters who have responded to this article - it can almost serve to undermine faith, rather than bolster it. It is very depressing. I am going through a tough time psychologically and emotionally right now, and this does not help.
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mrpathetic
Guest
In my opinion, the most disturbing part was this sermon by St. Leonard was this:
“O abyss of the judgments of God! Out of thirty thousand, only five were saved! And out of sixty thousand, only three went to heaven! You sinners who are listening to me, in what category will you be numbered?.. What do you say?.. What do you think?..”
Those aren’t good odds. One out of six thousand saved. That appears to be the number, if you believe St. Leonard.
==========================================
I am kind of a statistics freak. So I did some research. I looked at the NOAH site that reports on human lightning strikes. Your odds of being struck by lightning, over the course of your lifetime, are about one in 5,000:
lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm
**So if St. Leonard is correct, the chances of being saved are less than of being struck by lightning! **
This is either sadly true, or sadly untrue. Or I have totally misinterpreted this article, or what is being communicated by St. Leonard.
Please, tell me what I am missing. I am saddened, deeply saddened by this. It is so hard to hold out hope for salvation, with this knowledge.
“O abyss of the judgments of God! Out of thirty thousand, only five were saved! And out of sixty thousand, only three went to heaven! You sinners who are listening to me, in what category will you be numbered?.. What do you say?.. What do you think?..”
Those aren’t good odds. One out of six thousand saved. That appears to be the number, if you believe St. Leonard.
==========================================
I am kind of a statistics freak. So I did some research. I looked at the NOAH site that reports on human lightning strikes. Your odds of being struck by lightning, over the course of your lifetime, are about one in 5,000:
lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm
**So if St. Leonard is correct, the chances of being saved are less than of being struck by lightning! **
This is either sadly true, or sadly untrue. Or I have totally misinterpreted this article, or what is being communicated by St. Leonard.
Please, tell me what I am missing. I am saddened, deeply saddened by this. It is so hard to hold out hope for salvation, with this knowledge.
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Dorothy
Guest
Please do not allow St. Leonard’s sermon to disturb you.
In his sermon he states his reason for saying what he says is “…to contain the pride of libertines who cast the holy fear of God out of their heart…”
Do not allow St. Leonard’s strong words used to impress the hard-hearted to depress you.
"…
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CentralFLJames
Guest
You need to look at the silver lining of these lightning statistics. According to NOAA there are over 22 Million lighting strikes per year in the USA. Given that the average USA lifespan is about 78 years and that there are about 300 million people this means that there are enough strikes over one’s life so that each of us has about 6 personal fair opportunities to be hit over our life time (if it is all fairly distributed and some don’t take more than their fair share). And I bet one can improve their chances if they go put up a holy lightning rod when the storms roll in.
Kidding of course. Salvation is only a probability game for the person who foolishly rolls the dice on their eternity by going in and out of grace and presuming on God’s mercy, not repenting of sin and abusing the confessional. But the person who does not commit a mortal sin has a certain chance of attaining salvation.
James
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expectthebest
Guest
The scary thing is that you can try all your life and still not make it. That’s what I have trouble with.You need to look at the silver lining of these lightning statistics. According to NOAA there are over 22 Million lighting strikes per year in the USA. Given that the average USA lifespan is about 78 years and that there are about 300 million people this means that there are enough strikes over one’s life so that each of us has about 6 personal fair opportunities to be hit over our life time (if it is all fairly distributed and some don’t take more than their fair share). And I bet one can improve their chances if they go put up a holy lightning rod when the storms roll in.
Kidding of course. Salvation is only a probability game for the person who foolishly rolls the dice on their eternity by going in and out of grace and presuming on God’s mercy, not repenting of sin and abusing the confessional. But the person who does not commit a mortal sin has a certain chance of attaining salvation.
James
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davidv
Guest
I don’t think that this is true.
If in fact one is “trying”, then one will receive the grace needed to obey God. Obedience of God leads to life not death.
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Neithan
Guest
I would recommend a prayerful reading of Pope Benedict XVI’s encyclical on Christian Hope: Spe Salvi.
Scrupulosity is a tragic disease of religion. Apostasy is never the answer, however, and to a person prone to feelings of guilt the burden is likely to be intensified by removing God and placing the full weight of moral responsibility on the shoulders of Man.
Scrupulosity is a tragic disease of religion. Apostasy is never the answer, however, and to a person prone to feelings of guilt the burden is likely to be intensified by removing God and placing the full weight of moral responsibility on the shoulders of Man.
As for the “narrow way” into Heaven, it is indeed narrow, sacrosanct, where only the perfect can enter; and that is why we have the merciful doctrine of purgation. The holy father suggests that most people will go to purgatory:
Read the Encyclical! Pray for the peace and hope only Our Lord can give!
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