Are Muslims okay with Muhammed actions?

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GraceDk,

So Hindus or tribal Africans killing their female members of the family is “out of jealousy” and not “honor killing” !!..please do some research on these two non-Muslim examples
 
There are killings out of jealousy everywhere I suppose… But honour killings… no… Its a Muslim phenomenon. At least in my country,

A few years ago we had a case with a 14 year old Iraqi girl named Sonaj. Her father Ashraf Mohammad, killed her in 2002…
he beat her up and threw her into the harbour where she drowned because she had “become too Danish”.
This is a letter that was confiscated from the father. He wrote to his brother Jabbar and was threatening him if he does not help financially the mother of Sonaj:
“I will kill you like I killed the infidel Sonay. She used to make foulness every day with the infidel pigs… she has made foul things two times infront of me and I killed her with my own hand.”

Two years prior to this the father was jugded for violence against his daughter. He had found a pic in her bag of a Danish boy. She was removed from the home by the authorities, but later it was decided that she could visit her family. This caused her to get killed.

Then there was 26 year old Tyrkish Fadime Sahindal, shot by her own father infront of the eyes of her mother
and sister… Fadime had repeatedly asked the authorities to help her because she was threatened by her family. The reason for her death was that she had a Swedish boyfriend…

Then there was the case with Ghazala who was 18 years old and shoot by her own brother on the open street close to Copenhagen. She had married another man than whom her family had decided for her and thus “dishonoured” them…

And there are more than 300 reported cases YEARLY of violence and killings related to honour among our Muslim population… this is taking place in my very small country. Another crime we never saw before Muslim immigration came is gangrape… we have had severel cases of this within the last 15 years and it just baffles us that people can come with such barbarity.

Now I made a crime report for you… but I dont think anyone will read it. Dont know why i bother…
“Honor Killing” is Absolutely Islamic

Quote:

“Honor killing is the bone chilling horrific cruelty committed by the family members—father, mother, brothers, brother-in-laws, even in some cases own sisters also. In this terrible episode the victim is always the daughter/sister or other blood related young women who get killed. Perpetrators are always the family members stated above. Family honor is one of the core values of Arab society. Anything from speaking with an unrelated man, to rumored pre-marital loss of virginity, to an extra-marital affair, refuses forced marriages; marry according to their will; or even women and girls who have been raped—can stain or destroy the family honor. Therefore, family members (parents, brothers, or sisters) kill the victim in order to remove the stain or maintain, and protect the honor of the family. Killers are given light sentences, sometimes with little or no jail time at all. The killers mainly defend their act of murder by referring to the Koran and Islam. Family guardian will say that they are merely following the directives set down in their Islamic ethical beliefs.”

Here’s a chilling article about rape in Islam.

Quote:

“Conveniently, as a means of disavowing the horrific or inconvenient within Islam, Muslim apologists often point to the Koran as proof that a particular horrific or inconvenient aspect of their culture is in fact, not really a part of their culture after all, because it is not specifically referenced within the Koran.
Arguing that something not specifically addressed within the Koran is not Islamic is a convenient mechanism for dissembling with the truth as there are a great many aspects of Islam that are unquestionably Islamic, also not specifically mentioned within the Koran.”

How many times have we heard something like that from Muslims?

Quote:

"Throughout the non-Muslim world, rape committed by Muslim’s is a religiously sanctioned and overt, deliberate act of subjugation, and while the epidemic of rapes committed by Muslim immigrants worldwide may seem like random acts of criminality, they are in fact specifically sanctioned within both the Koran and the Sunna.
**That non-Muslim women are specifically targeted is indicative of this aberrant sexual expression as a form of warfare, as an act of taking that belonging to an infidel, as a rightful entitlement of the faithful, and as an act of expressing moral indignation at the offensive and open rebellion of such women by their failure to be in submission to God, and by the term God, Muslim men. **

But it is not only non-believing women who are violated with impunity.
Within Islamic communities, Muslim women and girls who have no male family members too protect them, are routinely raped, sodomized, and violated by Muslim men who know that there is virtually no possibility of societal condemnation and no threat of retaliation. Young women and girls who complain become outcast or worse, possibly suffering death for their accusation, or for having dishonored their families.
Within Denmark, for example, Muslim men comprise less than 4% of that country’s population, but commit an estimated 80% of all sexual assaults. "

Vickie
 
GraceDk,

So Hindus or tribal Africans killing their female members of the family is “out of jealousy” and not “honor killing” !!..please do some research on these two non-Muslim examples
Its not up to us to defend Hindu or African tribes, but Catholicism.
 
Reading about cases like those (which, by the way GraceDK, you should provide sources for) is confusing to me. I remember when the riots in the mostly Muslim-inhabited French ghettos happened a few years ago, the press made a big deal of how it was MUSLIM youth on a rampage. And so it appeared to be, honestly, but when I asked a French (non-Muslim) friend of mine what he made of it, he said that it could have happened in any community that had been similarly neglected and made to feel that they are not really part of the country, and made a comparison between it and the famous Watts riots of the 1960s in the USA.
Your friend was right. There’s no religious motivation to the riots that I’m aware of. Those “youths” may be of Muslim background but they’re hardly religious.
 
GraceDk,

So Hindus or tribal Africans killing their female members of the family is “out of jealousy” and not “honor killing” !!..please do some research on these two non-Muslim examples
Hadi.
I am familiar with the Islamic world and the Western one… I haven’t been to Africa, but I know there are quite alot of Muslims there too…
In Denmark we have many Hindus but no, we have no problem with honour-related violence in these groups. Maybe you care to enlighten me…?

It strikes me ever more how you, when I point out a sickness within Muslim culture, say: “LOOK OVER THERE!” instead of actually talking about the issues being raised.
if you say: “There is a scandalous number of priests who have molested children”, I will address this issue in honesty instead of saying:" look overthere in China, they do this and that… !!"
Why wont you explain and discuss about the Islamic problems… don’t you know the root to solving a problem is by admitting its there?
 
Hadi.
I am familiar with the Islamic world and the Western one… I haven’t been to Africa, but I know there are quite alot of Muslims there too…
In Denmark we have many Hindus but no, we have no problem with honour-related violence in these groups. Maybe you care to enlighten me…?

It strikes me ever more how you, when I point out a sickness within Muslim culture, say: “LOOK OVER THERE!” instead of actually talking about the issues being raised.
if you say: “There is a scandalous number of priests who have molested children”, I will address this issue in honesty instead of saying:" look overthere in China, they do this and that… !!"
Why wont you explain and discuss about the Islamic problems… don’t you know the root to solving a problem is by admitting its there?
I agree with your last post …it’s our responsibility to address this problem and eliminate it completely…

I believe you are sincere in trying to help Muslims and I really appreciate it…but I brought up my last post because you said it’s an “Islamic phenomena” so I wanted to hear what you think about this same crime occurring in tribal Africa and India…

I don’t call molesting boys a “Catholic phenomena” just because it’s wide spread among catholic priests…so you shouldn’t call honor killing an Islamic phenomena
 
I agree with your last post …it’s our responsibility to address this problem and eliminate it completely…

I believe you are sincere in trying to help Muslims and I really appreciate it…but I brought up my last post because you said it’s an “Islamic phenomena” so I wanted to hear what you think about this same crime occurring in tribal Africa and India…

I don’t call molesting boys a “Catholic phenomena” just because it’s wide spread among catholic priests…so you shouldn’t call honor killing an Islamic phenomena
“Widespread among Catholic priests”? Where do you get that? Most priests are good, honest men who serve the Church and parishioners faithfully.

You’re doing exactly what Grace pointed out, using a tu quoque reply. Honor killings may happen elsewhere but they appear to be more prevalent among Muslims. You just don’t want to face it.

Vickie
 
“Widespread among Catholic priests”? Where do you get that? Most priests are good, honest men who serve the Church and parishioners faithfully.

You’re doing exactly what Grace pointed out, using a tu quoque reply. Honor killings may happen elsewhere but they appear to be more prevalent among Muslims. You just don’t want to face it.

Vickie
The John Jay College of Criminal Justice conducted a study of sexual abuse by Roman Catholic clergy. It was commissioned by U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. The College released their report in late 2004-FEB. 1

Among their findings were the following data:
  • 11,000 allegations of sexual abuse of children had been made between 1950 and 2002; 61% were substantiated; 9% were unsubstantiated; 30% were not investigated because the alleged perpetrator had died.
  • 4,450 clergy (4%) out of the total 110,000 who served during the interval are alleged to have sexually abused children.
  • 78% of the alleged victims were post-pubertal (11 to 17 years of age). 1,2
Unfortunately, the full scope of the abuse will never be known. According to the OC Weekly, many dioceses destroyed or withheld personnel files.

Settlements: As of mid-2005, there are 195 Roman Catholic dioceses in the U.S. They have paid a total of over $1.5 billion dollars in settlements since 1950

According to CNN.com:
Code:
"The Rev. Thomas Doyle, who left a promising career with the church to help represent victims, had warned the bishops in 1985 that abuse costs could eventually exceed $1 billion. He said: "Nobody believed us. I remember one archbishop telling me, 'My feeling about this, Tom, is no one's ever going to sue the Catholic Church'."
Orange County, CA: During 2004, the diocese agreed in principle to a $100 million settlement to compensate approximately 90 victims with amounts ranging from $500 thousand to $4 million.

Covington, KY: In 2005, the diocese established a $120 million fund to compensate an unknown number of victims.

Los Angeles, CA: The diocese of Los Angeles – the largest in the U.S., announced on 2006-DEC-02 that it had agreed to pay $60 million to settle 45 lawsuits that alleged sexual abuse involving 22 priests.

Bankruptcy: Four dioceses, (Davenport, IA; Portland, OR; Spokane WA; and Tucson, AZ) have sought bankruptcy protection. Tucson has emerged from the process.

Clergy: According to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, during 2004, dioceses in the U.S. temporarily removed more than 300 accused clergy. 184 have been defrocked.

Insurance costs: The insurance premiums of all 195 Roman Catholic dioceses in the U.S. are certain to increase precipitously as insurance companies attempt to recoup their losses. Premiums paid by other religious institutions will probably increase as well. The scandal might even affect other non-profits, commercial establishments, companies, etc.

Source: religioustolerance.org/clergy_sex21.htm
 
A commentary on the above statistics is not necessary but to read the catholic church has paid out over $1.5 Billion is eye popping. To put it in perspective, that’s almost 1$ for every Muslim soul on the earth paid out to settle sexual abuse cases caused by catholic priests.

It feels as though the darkness Christians on this thread ascribe to our prophet is a projection of the darkness within the catholic church that is not fully admitted and as such, the distorted image of the prophet they have is to be regarded only as a projection of the shadow side of Christianity.
 
A commentary on the above statistics is not necessary but to read the catholic church has paid out over $1.5 Billion is eye popping. To put it in perspective, that’s almost 1$ for every Muslim soul on the earth paid out to settle sexual abuse cases caused by catholic priests.
You’re still deflecting, as pretty much every Muslim I’ve seen on these boards do.

You have been told that we acknowledge what is going on with our clergy. You, and other Muslims on this board, don’t. You deflect, time and time again, by pointing to something else.

If you think you’re being slick, you’re only fooling yourself.
 
A commentary on the above statistics is not necessary but to read the catholic church has paid out over $1.5 Billion is eye popping. To put it in perspective, that’s almost 1$ for every Muslim soul on the earth paid out to settle sexual abuse cases caused by catholic priests.
It feels as though the darkness Christians on this thread ascribe to our prophet is a projection of the darkness within the catholic church that is not fully admitted and as such, the distorted image of the prophet they have is to be regarded only as a projection of the shadow side of Christianity.
You’re still deflecting, as pretty much every Muslim I’ve seen on these boards do.

You have been told that we acknowledge what is going on with our clergy. You, and other Muslims on this board, don’t. You deflect, time and time again, by pointing to something else.

If you think you’re being slick, you’re only fooling yourself.
I’m not deflecting GodIsGracious, I’ve only replied to Booklover, but my views are not very popular here, it seems as though it is a problem of the their prophet, not mine.
 
I’m not deflecting GodIsGracious, I’ve only replied to Booklover, but my views are not very popular here, it seems as though it is a problem of the their prophet, not mine.
Just what exactly are you trying to say here?!? It seems as if you are saying, with your statement above that “it is a problem of their prophet, not mine” that Jesus Christ somehow promoted, condoned or otherwise sanctioned child abuse. If that is so, that is off the charts offensive, mainly because it is objectively untrue, not to mention in our eyes blasphemous!!! Unless you have something to support this position I suggest you apologize. :mad:
 
Just what exactly are you trying to say here?!? It seems as if you are saying, with your statement above that “it is a problem of their prophet, not mine” that Jesus Christ somehow promoted, condoned or otherwise sanctioned child abuse. If that is so, that is off the charts offensive, mainly because it is objectively untrue, not to mention in our eyes blasphemous!!! Unless you have something to support this position I suggest you apologize. :mad:
you misunderstood me Jay, I meant the Muhammad told by sunni hadiths is very different than the Muhammad (pbuh&hf) told through Shia narrators. It’s what they wrote and believe in so there’s no point of me to try and defend.
 
Firstly, betrothals are not the same as marriages, therefore one can be betrothed at an early age to someone they are intended to marry at a later age (usually after puberty set in). Aisha was betrothed at six, which is fine, however she was married at nine. Secondly, the age of tanakh, which is the age one pubesced, was uniformly throughtout time, around the age of thirteen. Charlemagne in the 8th century (only one century or so after Mohammed) made it so that spouses were to be no younger than 13 to be married, this was a decree (I will give you the exact information at a later date).
 
Awesome post, JC. I find myself becoming accusatory and uncharitable more often than I’d like to admit. We need to keep in mind that openess to charity and to Truth is more important than winning an argument.

God bless:highprayer:
 
you misunderstood me Jay, I meant the Muhammad told by sunni hadiths is very different than the Muhammad (pbuh&hf) told through Shia narrators. It’s what they wrote and believe in so there’s no point of me to try and defend.
Then I apologize for jumping to the wrong conclusion and misinterpreting your post. 🙂
 
Yes… I wanted to post sources… there are so many. Problem is they are news stories in our Danish news papers… There are not many Danish speaking people on these fora.
But… anyway:
Ghazala: bt.dk/article/20070227/krimi/70227037/1828/
“Her last words were: Brother, what are you doing!!”
Sonay: jp.dk/indland/krimi/article1382541.ece
Fadime: bt.dk/article/20020724/krimi/107240360/ (she is also mentioned in Wikipedia).
Thanks for these. You’re right, there aren’t very many Danish-speakers here (and I’m not one), but at least if you post the sources anyone who is interested can look at them, have them translated (this isn’t so difficult on the internet), etc. And you can’t be accused of making anything up, which I could imagine happening if someone thought you were simply trying to malign their religion (I don’t think that is the case, of course!).
You say that honour killing is not islamic to begin with.
I think thats a problematic statement. I might not change your mind but I have experienced that Muslims have a very different relationship to honour than westerners have. There are two phenomena that will strike you in the face if you get into Muslim culture: the self-victimization and the extreme sensitivity of honour…
When I wrote that honor killing is not Islamic to begin with, I meant that this is a pre-Islamic practice common to not only the Middle East, but many other tribal societies. It certainly still flourishes in some societies, including many Islamic societies, since this is not a practice that “the prophet” apparently saw fit to eliminate…yet another reason I do not believe he was a man of God, but I digress… :rolleyes:
 
Mohammed stands as a Muslim standard for morality (so marrying Aisha at nine would be considered ok as per today’s standards), so unless Muslims can let go of the idea that Mohammed is the most good and holy of all men, we can never rectify the situation of child brides. And the fact of the matter is that, what Mohammed did may have been against the norm (remember the age of tanakh was generally thirteen, and Aisha was nine and still playing with dolls) even back then. What’s most disturbing is that he claims to be a prophet of God (the last prophet)? Charlemagne who lived only some 150 years after Mohammed, stated a decree that no spouse should be younger than 13, was this as a result of Christian standards (albeit there are always those who disregard christian standards)?
 
Very true. Of course that doesn’t excuse Famdigy’s attempt to draw the explosive subject of clergy sexual abuse scandals into this discussion, said attempt being a very crude tu quoque arguement, as well as a red herring. The information he presented was also distorted, I think, and from a questionable website (“religious tolerance”?). However, if we start making emotional objections and pointing out suspicious things about his “data”, we just play into his hands. Like you, I call foul.
 
Muhammad can claim that Allah chose Aisha for him or that angels rejoiced for his thighing a little girl but what he cannot say, and which he did, and which traumatised many little children’s lives, what he cannot and shouldn’t have said is that he is the best example to follow…and this is in the name of human intelligence and God’s holiness…what kind of a deity is that who says someone like Muhammad is the best of creatures…hilarious. Whether we believe in Muhammad as a prophet or not has nothing to do with an objective criticism…Muhammad cannot be called the best of creatures, Muhammad cannot be called an ideal to follow…he isn’t even fit to be compared to Jesus’ apostles ( leave Jesus alone as comparing Muhammad to Him is an insult). No one will convince me that a 60 year old man who marries a infant is an ideal to follow, no one will convince me that a man who desired his adopted son’s wife is an ideal to follow, no one will convince me that a man who had more wives than humanity ( a privilege only for him) is an example to humanity, no one will convince me that a man who jumped from one bed to another is an ideal to humanity, no one will convince me that a man caught up in his wive’s bed with his slave is an example to follow, no one will convince me a man who slept with God knows how many women who aren’t even wives is an example to follow…if Muslims think this is the best they can reach, they have been badly fooled and need God urgently to open their eyes to what is good and what is evil as Muhammad redefined good and evil by calling evil good and good evil. Thank God a huge number of Muslims in the Middle East are waking up every day by God’s grace and love…
 
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