Are non-Christian religions acceptable?

[StAugustine]

And PLEASE NOTE- this specifically a deliverance from ignorance! Good quoting.

 

[goout]

Actually, to speak a bit more accurately, there is absolutely no person saved in ignorance ever.

An ignorant person, if they live according to the natural law, will come to true faith in Christ before death. If they do not, they were not really well disposed.

Remember, St. Thomas Aquinas teaches ignorance of the truth is a punishment for sin, either original or actual.

This is not true. The clear teaching of the Catholic Church is as follows.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...s/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.

 

[StAugustine]

Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.

Thank you for making my point. The truths they DO espouse in their ignorance are a preparation to receive the gospel, and therefore FAITH, without which, no one can be saved-

Insert Athanasian Creed here.

 

[goout]

No your point was patently false.
Your point was that ignorance of the Christian Gospel per se excludes a person form salvation.
That is false.
End of story.

 

[StAugustine]

No, I never said that. I said ignorance was a punishment for a life of mortal sin, that the presence of ignorance is the absence of faith, and that taken together they are the cause of the damnation of those who die in ignorance.

 

[goout]

No, I never said that.

This is verbatim what you said.

Actually, to speak a bit more accurately, there is absolutely no person saved in ignorance ever.

An ignorant person, if they live according to the natural law, will come to true faith in Christ before death. If they do not, they were not really well disposed.

Remember, St. Thomas Aquinas teaches ignorance of the truth is a punishment for sin, either original or actual.

And that is not Catholic teaching.
Good to see you are trying to clarify your mistake.

I said ignorance was a punishment for a life of mortal sin, that the presence of ignorance is the absence of faith, and that taken together they are the cause of the damnation of those who die in ignorance.

And that is also false. Ignorance of the Gospel is not a punishment for mortal sin.
That is patently BS.

 

[StAugustine]

Read post 420. Spelled out.

 

[anon10271182]

“Anyone who dies in a state of unrepentant mortal sin is damned–but only if they’re Catholic,” some would seem to insist. If they’re not Catholic, they get a pass. Because “mortal sin” only applies to Catholics.
In the face of such logic, what can one say?

 

[StAugustine]

False. It is patently true and taught as such by St. Thomas Aquinas-

If, however, we take it (unbelief) by way of pure negation, as we find it in those who have heard nothing about the faith, it bears the character, not of sin, but of punishment, because such like ignorance of Divine things is a result of the sin of our first parent. If such like unbelievers are damned, it is on account of other sins, which cannot be taken away without faith, but not on account of their sin of unbelief. Hence Our Lord said (John 15:22) “If I had not come, and spoken to them, they would not have sin”; which Augustine expounds (Tract. lxxxix in Joan.) as “referring to the sin whereby they believed not in Christ.”

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3010.htm

Unbelief resulting from invincible ignorance is a punishment for original and actual sin.

 

[goout]

Read post 420. Spelled out.

What you are saying is false.
I hate to be a quote machine, but apparently remedial catechetics is necessary.
Here is Lumen Gentium again:

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.

 

[goout]

here it is again:

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.

 

[StAugustine]

Lumen Gentium is no contradiction.

An invincible ignorant person who has some good in their life can embrace that good as a preparation for the gospel.

And when they finally RECEIVE that gospel, do they remain ignorant, or enlightened? It isn’t saying dying in ignorance is a means of salvation here.

 

[goout]

and again:

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.

 

[goout]

Are you getting it?

 

[StAugustine]

Yep, the good stuff is a preparation to receive the truth, after which they’ll stop being ignorant and can arrive at faith and be saved.

 

[goout]

The documents of Vatican 2, promulgated by the living magisterium, speak for themselves.
Here it is again. (5th time)

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.

 

[StAugustine]

Correct- to receive the gospel is to receive illumination and move from darkness to light, because of their repentance God lifts the punishment of ignorance.

Got it.

All your quotes culminate in one fact- all the good stuff they have is a preparation to receive what they do not have.

But If they die WITHOUT EVER RECEIVING IT… that is because of their other mortal sins, for which they have not repented and remain in the darkness of ignorance.

 

[goout]

Correct- to receive the gospel is to receive illumination and move from darkness to light, because of their repentance God lifts the punishment of ignorance.

Got it.

No, I don’t think you do get it.

6th time:

1. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.

 

[goout]

Are you ready to talk about willful ignorance yet?
Let me know. Good topic.

 

[StAugustine]

Yes, a preparation to BE SAVED, not as a state of salvation.