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mytruepower2
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Now we’ve resorted to defamation. Wonderful.
“Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God’s grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam’s fault to bad example.”
CCC, Paragraph 406, Sentence 2.
Remember, Pelagius was a -heretic- for viewing it this way.
By contrast, St. Thomas Aquinas, who was -not- a heretic, wrote…
“It is written (John 1:29): ‘Behold the Lamb of God, behold Him Who taketh away the sin of the world’: and the reason for the employment of the singular is that the “sin of the world” is original sin, as a gloss expounds this passage.”
Summa, First Part of the Second Part, Q82, A2.
Therefore, we cannot be freed from original sin without the special intervention that Jesus undertook on our behalf.
Furthermore…
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Letentur coeli,” Sess. 6, July 6, 1439: “We define also that… the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go straightaway to hell, but to undergo punishments of different kinds.”
So yes; you will go to Hell as a result of original sin, unless Jesus takes that sin away, and the normative way for this to happen is through the sacrament of Baptism. Any further protestations that I’ve somehow rebelled against the teachings of the Church will simply be empty. I’m -talking about- the teachings of the Church.
Finally, as to the actual nature of original sin in each individual man…
Pope Pius XI, Mit brennender Sorge (# 25), March 14, 1937: “‘Original sin’ is the hereditary but impersonal fault of Adam’s descendants, who have sinned in him (Rom. v. 12). It is the loss of grace, and therefore eternal life, together with a propensity to evil, which everybody must, with the assistance of grace, penance, resistance and moral effort, repress and conquer.”
So yes; as long as we remain in original sin, we have lost eternal life.
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Darryl1958
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Growing up, and growing up Catholic it might be added, this was not the way I assumed eternal life to be. I shared the popular conception of some kind of Caspar-like disembodied soul rising up to the ethereal upper world upon death. It was kind of hard to think of the body which leaves messes in the back, and drool on the pillow, was really the stuff of heaven.
Which is why, Scripturally, life is never separate from embodiedness. Your natural life required a natural human body. Everlasting life will require Resurrection and the pneumatikon soma.
ICXC NIKA
It is a huge leap of faith then for even some of us Catholics to fully appreciate that the dogma overtly only speaks of bodily resurrection at the end of time.
Before we can do that though, we need to decide whether we really want to do that,
It is pretty hard to accept the teaching if the body is regarded as a prison or a dead weight of some sort or another.
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Fragile
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Well, they are made up of cells…
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dshix
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tonyrey
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CCC 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;618 for this,** a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary**, and persistence in it until the end.
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mytruepower2
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Firstly, mine are bigger than yours.
But more importantly, I never said that God predestined anyone to go to Hell, so you’re arguing against a strawman. It is the action of Adam, not God, which resulted in original sin being conferred on all his descendants. -God- is saving people through baptism and repentance, and is not responsible for the evil consequences of -our- actions.
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CrossofChrist
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It can act as a prison if one is attached to sin. But that’s not to say that the body in and of itself is a prison. It’s sin that’s the prison, and I’ve yet to see any indication a saint has said or meant otherwise.
I’m very confident saints would take the understanding the Church has developed and come to realize in greater clarity over their own interpretation.
False. Of the 7 capital sins only gluttony and lust necessarily require the body.
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Robert_Sock
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Thomas a Kempis (not a saint) and St Saint Anthony Mary Claret are but two that I can name off the top of my head.
I’m not so sure. David is quotes as having said that: "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom. 7:24.
I say that all worldly sins are committed through the body.
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CrossofChrist
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I’m not familiar with either (other than knowing Thomas a Kempis wrote the Imitation of Christ).
His desire to be with the Lord doesn’t mean he thinks of his body as some kind of evil.
Pride certainly need not be committed through the body.
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GEddie
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No, but covetousness probably does, as without a body no physical or monetary goods can be had or desired. You need your hands to hold on to anything.I’m not familiar with either (other than knowing Thomas a Kempis wrote the Imitation of Christ).
His desire to be with the Lord doesn’t mean he thinks of his body as some kind of evil.
Pride certainly need not be committed through the body.
ICXC NIKA.
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Qoeleth
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A saint and a pope, Innocent III, from De Contemptu Mundi (XIX):
DE CARCERE ANIMAE
“Infelix homo, quis me liberabit de corpore mortis huius?” Certe non vult exire de carcere qui non vult exire de corpore, nam carcer anime corpus est. De quo dicit psalmista: “Educ de carcere animam meam ad confitendum nomini tuo.” Nusquam est quies et tranquillitas, nusquam pax et securitas; ubique est timor et tremor, ubique labor et dolor. “Cur dum vivit dolebit, et anima super semetipsam lugebit.”
ON THE PRISON OF (OR TO) THE SOUL
“Unhappy man, who will liberate me from this body of death (lit.- the body of this death)?” Certainly, he does not wiish to exit prison, who does not wiish to exit the body, for the body is the prison of the soul. Of which says the Psalmist: “Lead my soul from prison, to confiding in your name.” Never is there quite and tranquillity, never is there peace and security, everywhere is fear and tremor, everywhere labor and pain. “While it (the soul) lives it shall mourn, and the soul over itself self shall weep.”
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GEddie
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I wonder though.
Losing the body, you would lose your genes (family pride), your physique (personal pride), and your mind and memories (these need your head to hold them) (achievement pride).
So without a body, what could there possibly be for a bodiless soul to be proud OF?
ICXC NIKA.
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Robert_Sock
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CrossofChrist
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Sin. Rebelling against God, etc. The demons sure are proud.
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CrossofChrist
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Fair enough–in our present life our body can act as a prison insofar as it inhibits us from the beatific vision.
But that’s a far cry from our bodies being partially evil.
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tonyrey
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I don’t know what you mean - but quality is better than quantity.
But you implied that those who are not baptised are not saved even though they haven’t committed a mortal sin. They are in a prison from which there is no escape…
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GEddie
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Only it doesn’t – those in Purgatory and Hell do not receive the beatific vision despite losing their bodies; while those in Heaven will experience it as a pneumatikon soma [spiritual body].
Again, body is blamed for something totally unrelated to the body.
ICXC NIKA.
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wmw
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Well Said, my thought is that our bodies are like ships for our earthly journey some feel trapped on a poor journey others feel like it’s a grand adventure. Some ship are more restrictive or damaged than others and this can make the adventure less exciting and more entrapping.
On heaven and the beatific vision. Eternity continues after the last day in which we are resurrected from then on. Therefore, being in heaven without a body is at most a very temporary condition and an eternity will be spent in a glorified body. Our most proper and good condition is within a glorified body.
What God has made is good. Sin spoils much of what God has made, but good it remains.
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CrossofChrist
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What I meant was as long as we are alive we can’t achieve the beatific vision, while it is possible once we’ve died.
I’m not blaming the body for anything. After all, it’s the body that makes us completely human and perfects us in the Bodily Resurrection.
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