Are Paul's teachings re:women still relevant?

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buffalo:
Today we look at things through our own eyes. We want things to be as we think they should be given our upbringing and education. We are human and very limited in what we know, and certainly limited in our knowledge of God’s infinite wisdom.

If you were a century ago you would see things through quite a different lens.

In any case, we do not know God’s infinite wisdom and why He set things up as He did. But we do know somthing of God’s plan for us. His plan for us is the reason for our existence - God made us to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next. He has laid out a roadmap of sorts on how to get there.

We can use His roadmap or follow our own.
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Well, then perhaps, we have reached the end of this roard. Trying to convince that it is God’s plan for us does not automatically address the issue of whether it’s just. It only makes me wonder if God is just, which I realize puts me in very dangerous territory, but when it comes to this issue, I cannot deny that I have thought it.

If there is any reason, I would walk away from the Lord, this is it.

Kendy
 
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Kendy:
Well, then perhaps, we have reached the end of this roard. Trying to convince that it is God’s plan for us does not automatically address the issue of whether it’s just. It only makes me wonder if God is just, which I realize puts me in very dangerous territory, but when it comes to this issue, I cannot deny that I have thought it.

If there is any reason, I would walk away from the Lord, this is it.

Kendy
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God is perfect and He is perfectly just.

I have found the best way to grow in faith is to question, but to do so with one mission. To find the truth of the matter. It requires a properly formed conscience not one of convenience or preconceptions.

If I walked away from every inconvenient truth I don’t know where I would be. You do not strike me as one to run from the truth, but rather to have the truth inform you. I know this is hard.
 
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buffalo:
God is perfect and He is perfectly just.

I have found the best way to grow in faith is to question, but to do so with one mission. To find the truth of the matter. It requires a properly formed conscience not one of convenience or preconceptions.

If I walked away from every inconvenient truth I don’t know where I would be. You do not strike me as one to run from the truth, but rather to have the truth inform you. I know this is hard.
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It’s little more than incovenient. NFP is incovenient.

Kendy
 
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Kendy:
It’s little more than incovenient. NFP is incovenient.

Kendy
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Huh? I bet you could query the folks around here and find that the inconvenience of not getting immediate gratification increases their love through this self sacrifice and self giving. We could start a different thread about this, if this is another issue. It has been said NFP divorce proofs your marriage, and contraception is the Berlin wall of marriage.
 
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buffalo:
Kendy,

Let me approach this another way - if the minute you were born God infused you with the understanding of His plan for you, you would go through your life with a completely different world view, and you wouldn’t be offended by His message/plan for you.

But since you have heard the language of the world speaking to you first, you feel offended by this teaching. This is most difficult to reconcile.

It is like going through green lights all your life and all of a sudden the law changes and you no longer can go through them.
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Well, maybe, for me that’s not exactly true. I grew up in very traditional, patriarchal, catholic Haiti. I hadn’t heard the word feminism till I was a teenager in America. But when I was a little girl, I used to wonder why only boys got to do certain things, and why mom said men were in charge. So, actually, I came out a rebel:).

Kendy
 
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Kendy:
Well, maybe, for me that’s not exactly true. I grew up in very traditional, patriarchal, catholic Haiti. I hadn’t heard the word feminism till I was a teenager in America. But when I was a little girl, I used to wonder why only boys got to do certain things, and why mom said men were in charge. So, actually, I came out a rebel:).

Kendy
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Sure, I can understand that. The questions of your childhood were answered by the culture. But, have they been answered truthfully?
 
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FCEGM:
In what way is one person superior over another if not in some natural condition, for certainly one person is of the same dignity as a person to every other regardless of natural condition. So one is more intelligent that another; another stronger than a third; another more experienced; another more harmoniously formed; another more developed intellectually, etc. etc…

As to men and women, the latter generally are superior in intuition, are more steeped in sexuality and enduring strength, while men are superior in nature generally in assertive strength and rationality.

Men are more suited in assertive strength and rationality. Men are more suited by nature to headship, and women by nature to finding harmony with that by the surrender of love (men by subordination of rational hierarchy). Men are supposed to be superior in aspects of their nature; and women are supposed to be superior in aspects of theirs for the simple reason that men and women are not interchangeable in their natures. Denials of this elementary truth about human nature will eventually destroy all natural society (the attempt to deny it in the military is proving to be quite problematic, one has to say).
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Well, while I am not convinced that men are more suited by nature for headship, it’s at least a good argument.

The loving leadership service stuff really makes me want to puke. I can at least appreciate that one is more qualified to do something naturally than others.

Kendy
 
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buffalo:
Huh? I bet you could query the folks around here and find that the inconvenience of not getting immediate gratification increases their love through this self sacrifice and self giving. We could start a different thread about this, if this is another issue. It has been said NFP divorce proofs your marriage, and contraception is the Berlin wall of marriage.
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Oh, I don’t really want to get into that. I am just saying it was a difficult thing for me to accept because I thought it was unnecessarily incovenient. But I accept it.

Kendy
 
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Kendy:
If there is any reason, I would walk away from the Lord, this is it.

Kendy
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Don’t do that!! I have a daughter a couple of yrs older than you that declared herself an atheist, and it’s kills me everytime I think about it.
 
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Kendy:
Well, while I am not convinced that men are more suited by nature for headship, it’s at least a good argument.
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Then consider Jesus Christ, God Incarnate - as male. This wasn’t accidental. 🙂
 
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mikew262:
Don’t do that!! I have a daughter a couple of yrs older than you that declared herself an atheist, and it’s kills me everytime I think about it.
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Oh, I could never be an atheist. I believe there’s a God. I am just a little upset with Him right.

Kendy
 
Actually when you read the bible text in context there is a balance in the male female relationship. Most people simply read the part about female submission and the male headship and ignore 1 Peter.

1Peter 3:7 says that if the husband does not honor his wife then his prayers won’t be heard in heaven! Nowhere does it say that the woman won’t have her prayers heard if she refuses to submit. Just out of curiousity, does the verse in Peter frighten men? It would me if I was a male. I’d be terrified that I wasn’t honoring my wife.

What exactly does honor mean anyway. Isn’t this the type of respect that we give royalty?
 
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Kendy:
Ok, great. Penises rule!
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Having a flippant attitude doesn’t allow one to come to deep faith since it stays on the surface of things (and even there not seeing very clearly). Maturity seeks understanding with a listening heart; immaturity seeks to preserve itself from a deeper commitment to Christ and His Church which is inseparable from Him.
 
I answered my own question. On the free dictionary through the internet, I looked up honor. This is what it means.

**1. **High respect, as that shown for special merit; esteem: the honor shown to a Nobel laureate.
**2. ****a. **Good name; reputation.
**b. **A source or cause of credit: was an honor to the profession.

**3. ****a. **Glory or recognition; distinction.
**b. **A mark, token, or gesture of respect or distinction: the place of honor at the table.
**c. **A military decoration.
**d. **A title conferred for achievement.

**4. **High rank.
**5. **The dignity accorded to position: awed by the honor of his office.
**6. **Great privilege: I have the honor to present the governor.
**7. **Honor Used with His, Her, or Your as a title and form of address for certain officials, such as judges and mayors: Her Honor the Mayor.
**8. ****a. **Principled uprightness of character; personal integrity.
**b. **A code of integrity, dignity, and pride, chiefly among men, that was maintained in some societies, as in feudal Europe, by force of arms.
**c. **A woman’s chastity or reputation for chastity.

**9. **honors Social courtesies offered to guests: did the honors at tea.
 
Kendy, I think you’re getting upset over something that isn’t really germane to you. First of all, you’ve already said you don’t have a problem that women can’t be priests. So OK, that’s good. Now you’re worried about a possible husband who might ask you to submit. Here’s the thing. You get to pick your partner, so pick one that doesn’t and won’t ask you to submit. I’ve been married to my partner for 8 years and it is an equal partnership.

Now, some women like to submit to their husbands. And that’s cool, it’s just not my cup of tea.

As far as jobs and employment goes, you’re in luck. The Church backs you 100% for equal opportunity of employment.

Pax,
Amy
 
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a_cermak:
Kendy, I think you’re getting upset over something that isn’t really germane to you. First of all, you’ve already said you don’t have a problem that women can’t be priests. So OK, that’s good. Now you’re worried about a possible husband who might ask you to submit. Here’s the thing. You get to pick your partner, so pick one that doesn’t and won’t ask you to submit. I’ve been married to my partner for 8 years and it is an equal partnership.

Now, some women like to submit to their husbands. And that’s cool, it’s just not my cup of tea.

As far as jobs and employment goes, you’re in luck. The Church backs you 100% for equal opportunity of employment.

Pax,
Amy
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Just a question. What do you think the word submit means in this context?
 
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FCEGM:
Having a flippant attitude doesn’t allow one to come to deep faith since it stays on the surface of things (and even there not seeing very clearly). Maturity seeks understanding with a listening heart; immaturity seeks to preserve itself from a deeper commitment to Christ and His Church which is inseparable from Him.
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I am sorry for the sarcasm, but frankly, I was just echoing back what I am hearing you say. Of course, that may not be what you mean to say, but it’s certainly sounds like “penises rule” to me.

Kendy
 
Answer to the original topic of the thread: Some are, some aren’t.

There are exhoratations in Paul’s letters which were simply written for the addressees.

1 Cor 11 (NIV)
13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice—nor do the churches of God.
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This was clearly directed to the people of Corinth and the customs of their place and time. Did it mean no Christian man could have long hair from then until the end of the world? Of course not.

Paul told us to judge for ourselves, very well, it was directed to the Corinthians.

John
 
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mosher:
Just a question. What do you think the word submit means in this context?
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I believe it was meant to mean to be subject to or obedient. I am not subject to my husband nor he to me. Nor am I obedient or ordering nor he to me. All decisions are by consensus. Neither’s will is subject to the other except by means of gentle persuasion.

We were wed in the ORC where we were able to pick our readings (and so avoid this text) and vows.

Pax,
Amy
 
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