Are Paul's teachings re:women still relevant?

[trogiah]

FCEGM:

Then consider Jesus Christ, God Incarnate - as male. This wasn’t accidental.

I have found this thread to be interesting because I accept the male-only priesthood teaching of the church but I have never been convinced that it is a God-declared mandate. Nothing in this thread has convinced me of that, but still I am unsure.

One thing I am certain of, as both Scripture and Church teach us. God the Almighty is neither male nor female. Or perhaps we could say God is both. The fact that Jesus was a male does not change this truth.

Also I think the following scripture is relevant:
From the Gospel of Matthew.

“Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies without children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up descendants for his brother.’
Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died and, having no descendants, left his wife to his brother. The same happened with the second and the third, through all seven. Finally the woman died. Now at the resurrection, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had been married to her.” Jesus said to them in reply, “You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven.”

One thing this tells me is that people have long misunderstood the full nature of male-female relationships.

Also it tells me that there is a core identity of any person that transcends their male or femaleness.
I still accept that a functioning society demands a certain division of labor, but ultimately all those divisions disappear when we stand before God.

So is it absolutely unthinkable that a woman could say something spirtually enlightening to a man?

I do not feel a “yes” welling up with certainty in me.

But I think the discussion is necessary

peace

Jim

 

[Myangel]

I truly believe the problem lies with Society. I am a single 29 year old female, and I love the teachings of the Church. I am looking forward to meeting a man that will be head of my family and protector. I am a very independent women but I dont want to be all my life, I love the fact that a man can take my burdens on his shoulders and help me through it. Unfortunately some men of this day and age have taken full advantage of what the church teaches and abuse their power against women, then came feminism. If the whole human race knew how to love their spouses and respect them like Jesus taught, there would never be any dispute over men having authority and women submitting, because it would not have the same meaning as some of the Chauvinist men have made it to be or the feminist of today have given it!

I come from an Italian background, my father had that mentality that men are the leader and women must do as men say. He truly abused his power, all was OK as long as it went his way, my mother’s opinion/feelings didnt mean much at all. Now my 2 sisters have married men who are so precious to me, they love and respect their wives, are leaders and protectors of their family but still are able to respect and love their wives unconditionally!

Kendy as someone said previously, find a man (its damn hard I know) that will love and respect you in that way, that wont dictate your life but someone you would be willing to guide you if needed and also who is willing to be guided by you. We do hold a very special place in Gods plan, I watched the birth of my nephew on Sunday and my BIL said “Fathers can only watch in awe as God gives the most miraculous power to women”.

 

[Kendy]

Myangel:

I truly believe the problem lies with Society. I am a single 29 year old female, and I love the teachings of the Church. I am looking forward to meeting a man that will be head of my family and protector. I am a very independent women but I dont want to be all my life, I love the fact that a man can take my burdens on his shoulders and help me through it. Unfortunately some men of this day and age have taken full advantage of what the church teaches and abuse their power against women, then came feminism. If the whole human race knew how to love their spouses and respect them like Jesus taught, there would never be any dispute over men having authority and women submitting, because it would not have the same meaning as some of the Chauvinist men have made it to be or the feminist of today have given it!

Kendy as someone said previously, find a man (its damn hard I know) that will love and respect you in that way, that wont dictate your life but someone you would be willing to guide you if needed and also who is willing to be guided by you. We do hold a very special place in Gods plan, I watched the birth of my nephew on Sunday and my BIL said “Fathers can only watch in awe as God gives the most miraculous power to women”.

If he is guding me and I am guiding him, then no one has unilateral authority; this contradicts the notion of husband leads and wife obeys model that has been presented.

Kendy

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Kendy, let’s consider. . .if a husband and wife are absolutely, 100% equal–then it’s a stalemate. Suppose a couple goes out to eat dinner every week. One says, “Let’s eat Chinese”, “No, let’s eat Italian”. “But I choose Chinese”. “Well, choose Italian”. . .etc.

Well, you may say, in an “equal” marriage, people get “equal chances”. Great, accepted. Who goes FIRST?

Who gets to pick on the more popular weeks (Thanksgiving, Super Bowl, )?

And then, when the children come, is there absolute equality? Do husbands and wives alternate every dirty diddie and every 2 a.m. feeding?

Because men have abused the concept of leadership in the marital relationship, and, especially in the last half century, because some men and women alike have systematically attempted to indoctrinate women–and men–into the idea that any given man at any given time WILL abuse the concept of leadership. . .a great number of women today FEAR men, and fear “domination”. . .they fear that if they allow hubby to pick “Chinese” a week out of turn that the next week Hubby will be demanding that they only wear burkhas, turn in their car keys and credit cards, and spend the rest of their lives in some kitchen, barefoot and perpetually pregnant.

Men, OTOH, have been made to feel guilty for being “domineering”, have been made to look mindnumbingly stupid and shallow and slaves to lust, have been indoctrinated to “play games” to “score” (because that is all society demands of them), increasingly objectify women, and are sure that if they let the little woman have Italian an extra week, that she will turn into Lorena Bobbit, that he (who is, according to society, totally superfluous to any woman’s needs, wants, or desires) will be increasingly ignored and emasculated, and finally croak at 45 from the overwork he’ll take on to provide for wifey and the kids.

That is a LOT of stereotyping and indoctrination for women–or men–to overcome. Let’s face it, we all tend to focus on what seems to verify our personal opinions. Every time we read about some man brutalizing some woman, every woman turns and looks at ALL men with suspicion. Every time we read about some woman who has bankrupted some man and is cavorting around the Caribbean with a boy toy, every man deep down distrusts every woman.

If we want to break the cycle, we HAVE to start, two by two, so to speak, with TRUST. Does this mean that EVERY COUPLE will be successful? No, it doesn’t. This state of affairs did not happen overnight and it will not disappear overnight.

Women are going to have to TRUST men and men are going to have to TRUST women. It looks like that might be a HUGE problem with some people. So perhaps PRAYER would be a good start. It is amazing what prayer, and faith, and good example can do. Look at the late great John Paul II and Mother Teresa accomplished. . .he a model of masculinity and she of femininity. Though JP never had a physical bride, as the Vicar of Christ the entire Church was his bride. . .and he treated the Church–the people–the way a husband SHOULD treat his wife.
Though Mother Teresa had no physical husband, was she not the bride of Christ, and in her humility was she not HONORED and beloved?

 

[mosher]

a_cermak:

I believe it was meant to mean to be subject to or obedient. I am not subject to my husband nor he to me. Nor am I obedient or ordering nor he to me. All decisions are by consensus. Neither’s will is subject to the other except by means of gentle persuasion.

We were wed in the ORC where we were able to pick our readings (and so avoid this text) and vows.

Pax,
Amy

What is the ORC?

 

[Kendy]

Tantum ergo:

Kendy, let’s consider. . .if a husband and wife are absolutely, 100% equal–then it’s a stalemate. Suppose a couple goes out to eat dinner every week. One says, “Let’s eat Chinese”, “No, let’s eat Italian”. “But I choose Chinese”. “Well, choose Italian”. . .etc.

Well, you may say, in an “equal” marriage, people get “equal chances”. Great, accepted. Who goes FIRST?

Who gets to pick on the more popular weeks (Thanksgiving, Super Bowl, )?

And then, when the children come, is there absolute equality? Do husbands and wives alternate every dirty diddie and every 2 a.m. feeding?

I think that two people who love each other shouldn’t be sitting around keeping score on who got to pick the restaurant last time. I would hope that no woman would ever think, we have to eat where my husband wants to eat because he’s the leader. That’s sounds pretty oppressive. On the other hand, I would also hope that she would never say, “I want Italian and you are not the boss and that’s that.” That certainly not very loving. I would hope that both would seek ways to try to make the other person happy rather than try to pull rank.

As for changing dirty diapers, again, no one should sit around keep score, but a husband who never changes a diaper doesn’t sound particularly loving to me.

Kendy

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ok, that addresses the first couple of sentences of my answer.

What about the rest? Yes, I know I’m not short-winded but the post was not THAT long and the reasoning of WHY men and women are in the “equality” mentation is there.

I did not split my post into two parts PRECISELY because I did not want people jumping all over the “italian/chinese” debate without thinking WHY there was this notation of score keeping to BEGIN WITH.

 

[a_cermak]

mosher:

What is the ORC?

Old Roman Catholic Church Utrecht line. Their sacraments are considered valid but illicit due to their priests not having permission from the Ordinary (in my case Cardinal George). My bro-in-law is a ORC priest, so obviously he officiated.

Pax,
Amy

 

[Kendy]

Tantum ergo:

Because men have abused the concept of leadership in the marital relationship, and, especially in the last half century, because some men and women alike have systematically attempted to indoctrinate women–and men–into the idea that any given man at any given time WILL abuse the concept of leadership. . .a great number of women today FEAR men, and fear “domination”. . .they fear that if they allow hubby to pick “Chinese” a week out of turn that the next week Hubby will be demanding that they only wear burkhas, turn in their car keys and credit cards, and spend the rest of their lives in some kitchen, barefoot and perpetually pregnant.

Believe it or not, I am not afraid of men, but I agree with you that men have abused women. I think generally power is dangerous and should be limited whenever possible. But frankly, I am not afraid of any of these things. It’s unlikely that I would ever be in a situation where my husband could really cause me any harm and be powerless to do anything about. I simply think it’s insulting to ask me to be lead by someone simply because that person has a penis. I have no problem accepting the authority of a boss, or a police officer since I recognize that those as both legitimate and necessary forms of authority. Also, there are forces that restrain that person’s power. They only have authority within a narrow spere, not in every aspect of my personal life.
Tantum ergo:

Men, OTOH, have been made to feel guilty for being “domineering”, have been made to look mindnumbingly stupid and shallow and slaves to lust, have been indoctrinated to “play games” to “score” (because that is all society demands of them), increasingly objectify women, and are sure that if they let the little woman have Italian an extra week, that she will turn into Lorena Bobbit, that he (who is, according to society, totally superfluous to any woman’s needs, wants, or desires) will be increasingly ignored and emasculated, and finally croak at 45 from the overwork he’ll take on to provide for wifey and the kids.

Are you saying that men are afraid of this? Or that society has made men this way?
Tantum ergo:

That is a LOT of stereotyping and indoctrination for women–or men–to overcome. Let’s face it, we all tend to focus on what seems to verify our personal opinions. Every time we read about some man brutalizing some woman, every woman turns and looks at ALL men with suspicion. Every time we read about some woman who has bankrupted some man and is cavorting around the Caribbean with a boy toy, every man deep down distrusts every woman.

If we want to break the cycle, we HAVE to start, two by two, so to speak, with TRUST. Does this mean that EVERY COUPLE will be successful? No, it doesn’t. This state of affairs did not happen overnight and it will not disappear overnight.

Women are going to have to TRUST men and men are going to have to TRUST women. It looks like that might be a HUGE problem with some people. So perhaps PRAYER would be a good start. It is amazing what prayer, and faith, and good example can do. Look at the late great John Paul II and Mother Teresa accomplished. . .he a model of masculinity and she of femininity. Though JP never had a physical bride, as the Vicar of Christ the entire Church was his bride. . .and he treated the Church–the people–the way a husband SHOULD treat his wife.
Though Mother Teresa had no physical husband, was she not the bride of Christ, and in her humility was she not HONORED and beloved?

I am not sure that womedn trusting men necessarily implies that women need to start obeying them. I don’t think of the Pope as a spiritual husband but a spiritual father but fatherhood is a legitimate position of authority. I don’t want my relationship with my husband to remind me of my relationship to my father. I had a great father, but I am adult and I would like to treated like one.

As for Mother Theresa, she’s a wonderful woman, but I am not sure that it shows that all women need to to be odedient to their husbands.

Kendy

 

[deb1]

Tantum ergo,

You make some interesting points. I hope that you don’t mind if I just pick the parts of your post to discuss that are most pertainate to my life.

I have been married going on nearly 18 years. My hubby and I have never gotten to a time in our marriage when we couldn’t settle an issue through discussion. When I was fundamentalist I often heard the opinion that the man must lead because the family needs a leader to make major decisions or there will be chaos. I have never noticed this happening in my household.

As far as leadership roles, we both have our strengths and weaknesses and we each lead in the areas that we have strengths. I don’t think that either of us dominates the other.

About diaper changing, yes my hubby probably changed as many diapers as I did. I bottle fed the oldest and he got up with me in the middle of the night. Some weekends he even let me sleep in so that he could have alone time with our newborn-he’s a great dad. I can’t tell if you are male or female but I certainly hope that if you are male that you change diapers and take care of some of the nightly feedings.

As far as society’s depiction of males…I have two sons and I have to constantly tell them to ignore what the media says about men. My youngest came to me and wanted to know why men were only shown either disrespecting women or being completely stupid. I explained that this was not always so. Richard the Lion Hearted wrote poetry for example. Humans are far more complex and unique then stereotypes would indicate.

I do take issue with one of your statements. I can not speak for every woman, but personally I do not look at every or even most men with distrust due to any report of a man brutalizing a woman. I tend to see people as individuals. I would never judge all men by the actions of a few. That would be silly and immature.

I also don’t think that allowing your husband to take a leadership role in the marriage will automatically lead to a Taliban type relationship. I simply take an egalitarian view of the biblical verses. I try to read the whole bible in context.

1 Peter 3:7 speaks of a husband honoring his wife or his prayers will be hindered. Honor is as strong a word as submission. If each person in a marriage does what the bible says then there will be mutual submission. One person will not dominate the other.

 

[buffalo]

Kendy:

As for changing dirty diapers, again, no one should sit around keep score, but a husband who never changes a diaper doesn’t sound particularly loving to me.

Kendy

If that’s a true measurement of love.

 

[deb1]

buffalo:

If that’s a true measurement of love.

It is difficult to understand what you mean by this short statement. Certainly it is a measurement of the father’s love for his child to not leave the baby in nasty diapers.

 

[buffalo]

deb1:

It is difficult to understand what you mean by this short statement. Certainly it is a measurement of the father’s love for his child to not leave the baby in nasty diapers.

Perhaps the father is good at many things but inept at changing diapers. It in no way reflects on his love.

(I do not advocate in this leaving the baby messy.)

 

[deb1]

buffalo:

Perhaps the father is good at many things but inept at changing diapers. It in no way reflects on his love.

(I do not advocate in this leaving the baby messy.)

I was often criticized by other women for leaving my children’s diaper too loose. Once I almost went through the floor in embarrassment when another woman told my husband that she could tell that he had put on the diaper and not me due to the fact that it wasn’t tight. Um…I had been the one to put the diaper on.

By the way, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put on a disposable diaper. It is a fairly easy process. If a man is inept at changing diapers it is because he does not want to change diapers.(I wish that I could have used that excuse)

 

[buffalo]

deb1:

I was often criticized by other women for leaving my children’s diaper too loose. Once I almost went through the floor in embarrassment when another woman told my husband that she could tell that he had put on the diaper and not me due to the fact that it wasn’t tight. Um…I had been the one to put the diaper on.

By the way, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put on a disposable diaper. It is a fairly easy process. If a man is inept at changing diapers it is because he does not want to change diapers.(I wish that I could have used that excuse)

Yeah I guess you’re right. Women should change the oil in their car. If they are inept it is because they just don’t want to do it.

Everyone has their gifts.

 

[deb1]

buffalo:

Yeah I guess you’re right. Women should change the oil in their car. If they are inept it is because they just don’t want to do it.

Everyone has their gifts.

This is correct. There is no reason that a woman can’t change the oil in the car. I have been trying for years to get my hubby to teach me how to do more car related care(did that sentence make sense?) It is a very dangerous world and women should be know how to do basic car care just like men. There was a serial killer-can’t remember where- that would target women who needed assistance on the side of the road.

 

[puzzleannie]

I just love it when I come back to a thread after a couple of days and find out just how far off topic we really are. I am unable to find the reference in Paul to diapers, even with a concordance. ditto auto maintenance. do I understand there is a consensus that according to Paul unless my husband gives me the authority I cannot change the oil or have someone do it for me? believe me I gave him headship over diapers during those days but it didn’t do a darn bit of good, I would still come home and find him sitting on the porch in mid-winter because a stinky baby blasted him out of the house and he would not or could not deal with it.

 

[Kendy]

buffalo:

Yeah I guess you’re right. Women should change the oil in their car. If they are inept it is because they just don’t want to do it.

Everyone has their gifts.

Actually, you are more right than you think. I was thinking about just that recently. I have always found a man to change the oil in my car, but it occured to me that the only reason I do that is because I don’t want to and feel like I can get away with getting a male friend to do it. But I am capable of doing it.

Kendy

 

[deb1]

puzzleannie:

I just love it when I come back to a thread after a couple of days and find out just how far off topic we really are. I am unable to find the reference in Paul to diapers, even with a concordance. ditto auto maintenance. do I understand there is a consensus that according to Paul unless my husband gives me the authority I cannot change the oil or have someone do it for me? believe me I gave him headship over diapers during those days but it didn’t do a darn bit of good, I would still come home and find him sitting on the porch in mid-winter because a stinky baby blasted him out of the house and he would not or could not deal with it.

What you have never read in Corinthians chapter 114:4 the verse “And I saith unto thee. In the future men alone shall change the oil in the car. And woman shall be the keeper of the stinky diaper.”

Actually, I have to thank buffalo. My neighbor and I both have a female friend who is a mechanic. We are both going to ask this friend to give females lessons in basic car care at my friend’s church.

I was also reminded of the fact that my hubby does not change the oil in our car but takes it to a mechanic. The next time he might even drop our minivan off at the business of our friend the mechanic so that she can give us a discount on an oil change.

 

[Kendy]

I should add that we shouldn’t go around changing diapers or the oil for the sake of gender equality. It’s not important to prove that we can do the same things. Whatever we do, our priority must be love. I guess so angry about this wife submission stuff that I forget that.

Kendy