Are people naturally virtuous/vicious or not?

  • Thread starter Thread starter fakename
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
F

fakename

Guest
What does it mean that human nature is or is not good or evil?

It seems that human nature is good since human nature is reason and reason is prudence and prudence is a virtue. So humans are naturally good.

But it seems that human nature is not good since good is a habit that takes practice and nothing that takes practice is natural. So human nature is not good or bad.

However, reason takes practice so human nature would not be natural which is absurd.

So there must be some way in which reason and good is in one way natural and in another way unnatural.

Can you think of any because I can’t.🤷
 
It seems that human nature is good since human nature is reason and reason is prudence and prudence is a virtue. So humans are naturally good.
Click to expand...
Human nature is good. However, we have an incline to do evil.
Yes, being rational is part of human nature, but having prudence is NOT the same thing as being rational. Prudence is a virtue–a habit of right reason.
But it seems that human nature is not good since good is a habit that takes practice and nothing that takes practice is natural. So human nature is not good or bad.
Click to expand...
There are two different kinds of goodness, which i think need to be distinguished. There is ontological goodness (i.e. a goodness of nature and being) and there is moral goodness (which is a habit of action and exercise of free will). We are human nature is ontologically good, however, man is not necessarily morally good. Moral goodness is not unnatural to him, but it is difficult. All human beings are potentially morally good, but not all realize that potential.
However, reason takes practice so human nature would not be natural which is absurd.
Click to expand...
Correct, that is absurd. Reason is natural. Something can be said to be natural because it intrinsically belongs to our nature, and some things can be natural insofar as we have a potency to achieve them and they are in our power to possess. All men are rational by nature, but not all men have right reason (i.e. prudence). All men have ontological goodness by their nature, but not all men are morally good.

It is all about distinctions and recognizes terms like “natural” and “goodness” and have slightly different meanings depending upon the context. St. Thomas is all about making distinctions.
 
If you want to really understand the finer points of this, you really should read the relevant sections of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or some other official Church document that discusses the Fall and Original Sin and Grace, and so forth.

But, as rough, semi-inaccurate shorthand, I believe it is best to let our observations of life guide us, and I think they guide us to see that people are naturally vicious. Saints are made, not born.

Just think about middle school and high school, how vicious those young people are to each other outside of their immediate friendship group, and sometimes withing their immediate friendship groups. Think of all the acrimonious divorces nowadays. Think about the “no holds barred” vicious political campaigns. Think of all the parish communities torn about by egoism, ambition, gossiping, backbiting, glory-seeking, selfishness, etc. Think of all the young people who are disrespectful to parents and teachers. The examples could go on and on.

True saintly persons are a rarity. There’s a reason for that.

It takes concerted effort to “love thy neighbor as thyself.” The default setting for human beings is “hate thy neighbor.” But, with grace and work, we can improve.

Yet, it seems undeniable that, most of the time, most of the people have little or no interest in improving.

Yet, Jesus always there inviting us upwards to godliness.

Hope that answer was of some use to you. If so, thank God. If not, forgive me.
 
fakename said:
What does it mean that human nature is or is not good or evil?

It seems that human nature is good since human nature is reason and reason is prudence and prudence is a virtue. So humans are naturally good.

But it seems that human nature is not good since good is a habit that takes practice and nothing that takes practice is natural. So human nature is not good or bad.

However, reason takes practice so human nature would not be natural which is absurd.

So there must be some way in which reason and good is in one way natural and in another way unnatural.

Can you think of any because I can’t.🤷
Click to expand...
Man is intrinsicaly evil.
 
HisIsTheCrown said:
Man is intrinsicaly evil.
Click to expand...
Without qualification, that statement would be haeresim sapiens, in other words, its sounds like heresy and that a heretical meaning appears the most obvious.

Man is intrinsically good, but his condition is such that he is born with vice (an inclination to sin) and cannot attain his natural end on his own power.
 
Katholish said:
Without qualification, that statement would be haeresim sapiens, in other words, its sounds like heresy and that a heretical meaning appears the most obvious.

Man is intrinsically good, but his condition is such that he is born with vice (an inclination to sin) and cannot attain his natural end on his own power.
Click to expand...
Look, we are evil by nature. Evil means that we are not good. So, evil implies good. Jesus saved us from sin so we may be good.
Jesus Christ many times say that we are bad.
I would go for quotations but I have no time now.
Look at man’s sin along the centuries…
 
We are good and holy by nature but through original sin-in other words egotism we have forgotten our goodness/holiness. That is our meaning of life-to work towards salvation,liberation, enlightenment or whatever our particular spiritual path calls it-back to our True Self, our holiness, our goodness. The evil that we think, say and do are due to the egoic stories we have “written” about who or what we are or should be. Let go of the egotism and become whole once again. Blessings to you and yours.
 
HisIsTheCrown said:
Look, we are evil by nature. Evil means that we are not good. So, evil implies good. Jesus saved us from sin so we may be good.
Jesus Christ many times say that we are bad.
I would go for quotations but I have no time now.
Look at man’s sin along the centuries…
Click to expand...
Everything created by God is intrinsically good, but we are born “children of wrath” due to original sin, which gets wiped away at baptism.

Would you agree that a baptized infant is intrinsically good?
 
HisIsTheCrown said:
Look, we are evil by nature. Evil means that we are not good. So, evil implies good. Jesus saved us from sin so we may be good.
Jesus Christ many times say that we are bad.
I would go for quotations but I have no time now.
Look at man’s sin along the centuries…
Click to expand...
It is impossible for anything made by God to be evil by nature. The argument that man’s nature itself became corrupted, was the argument of total depravity made by Luther and condemned by the Council of Trent (Session 6). The Fall is a condition which affects our nature, but does not alter it. We are born without Sanctifying Grace and are enslaved to sin, but are not evil by nature. When we are Baptised, Sanctifying Grace is restored to us, and while we still have some effects of the Fall, like the inclination to sin, we truly good, not as Luther would have, dunghills covered with snow, but instrincally and internally good.

In a Thomistic sense, things cannot have their nature altered anyway, so that kind of talking doesn’t really even make sense.
 
HisIsTheCrown said:
Look, we are evil by nature…
Click to expand...
Of course we’re not.

Is the essential human nature of a new born baby evil?

Is the essential human nature of a person born with profound mental retardation evil?

Their human nature is the same as our human nature.

Many factors in our life can conspire to make us perform evil acts, but we are not evil by nature.

Sarah x 🙂
 
fakename said:
What does it mean that human nature is or is not good or evil?

It seems that human nature is good since human nature is reason and reason is prudence and prudence is a virtue. So humans are naturally good.

But it seems that human nature is not good since good is a habit that takes practice and nothing that takes practice is natural. So human nature is not good or bad.

However, reason takes practice so human nature would not be natural which is absurd.

So there must be some way in which reason and good is in one way natural and in another way unnatural.

Can you think of any because I can’t.🤷
Click to expand...
First of all, if you are majoring in philosophy your parents are going to be upset with you.
Second, Scripture has a lot to say about human nature.
Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Numbers 15:39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
Deuteronomy 15:9 Beware that there be not a thought in thy wicked heart, saying, The seventh year, the year of release, is at hand; and thine eye be evil against thy poor brother, and thou givest him nought; and he cry unto the LORD against thee, and it be sin unto thee.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Mark10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

People aren’t naturally good. Let me ask you this,did your parents teach you to lie or teach you to tell the truth; did they teach you to be selfish or teach you to share, did they teach you to mess up you room or to keep it clean, did they teach you to be lazy or to be responsible? It is in our nature to be sinful, that is why we need grace.
 
Katholish said:
Human nature is good. However, we have an incline to do evil.
Yes, being rational is part of human nature, but having prudence is NOT the same thing as being rational. Prudence is a virtue–a habit of right reason.

There are two different kinds of goodness, which i think need to be distinguished. There is ontological goodness (i.e. a goodness of nature and being) and there is moral goodness (which is a habit of action and exercise of free will). We are human nature is ontologically good, however, man is not necessarily morally good. Moral goodness is not unnatural to him, but it is difficult. All human beings are potentially morally good, but not all realize that potential.

Correct, that is absurd. Reason is natural. Something can be said to be natural because it intrinsically belongs to our nature, and some things can be natural insofar as we have a potency to achieve them and they are in our power to possess. All men are rational by nature, but not all men have right reason (i.e. prudence). All men have ontological goodness by their nature, but not all men are morally good.

It is all about distinctions and recognizes terms like “natural” and “goodness” and have slightly different meanings depending upon the context. St. Thomas is all about making distinctions.
Click to expand...
Yes, reason and nature have many meanings and I heartilyaccept your resolution of the problem.

In the same vein, can we say that “nature” is also a potential and not always actual?
Can we say that “reason” is also potential and sometimes actual (as when a brain-dead person is called human but only because he has potential reason whereas a good man with reason is called “rational” in the fully actualized way)?
 
tm30 said:
Everything created by God is intrinsically good, but we are born “children of wrath” due to original sin, which gets wiped away at baptism.

Would you agree that a baptized infant is intrinsically good?
Click to expand...
A limping person is limping either she is baptized or not.
The tendency for sin is present on baptized babies.
 
Katholish said:
It is impossible for anything made by God to be evil by nature. The argument that man’s nature itself became corrupted, was the argument of total depravity made by Luther and condemned by the Council of Trent (Session 6). The Fall is a condition which affects our nature, but does not alter it. We are born without Sanctifying Grace and are enslaved to sin, but are not evil by nature. When we are Baptised, Sanctifying Grace is restored to us, and while we still have some effects of the Fall, like the inclination to sin, we truly good, not as Luther would have, dunghills covered with snow, but instrincally and internally good.

In a Thomistic sense, things cannot have their nature altered anyway, so that kind of talking doesn’t really even make sense.
Click to expand...
We are created for God. Period.
But there is an intrinsic root that makes evil grow on us.
How to connect the two I do not know.
I do not interpret Adam literally. Man has been around for millions of years.
 
atheistgirl said:
Of course we’re not.

Is the essential human nature of a new born baby evil?

Is the essential human nature of a person born with profound mental retardation evil?

Their human nature is the same as our human nature.

Many factors in our life can conspire to make us perform evil acts, but we are not evil by nature.

Sarah x 🙂
Click to expand...
Yes, babies and mentally retarded people from infancy are born with a tendency for evil.
JJRousseau defended that babies are good and it is society that corrupts them is wrong.
As the chart of UNESCO say, "war comes from inside man and only there car be solved!- Even UNESCO recognized that there are not the goodies and the baddies and than evil comes from inside man.
 
I was told to tell the truth but taught to lie when it suited me.
I was told to be responsible but taught to be lazy because I was tired after a days work.
I was told to share with siblings but never once taught to give to the needy.
I was told to clean my room and was taught this as well. hurray for me!
I was told never to say the “N” word in public but taught it was okay in our home amongst family.
I was told to go to church but was taught that religion stopped at the church exit.
 
chataranga said:
I was told to tell the truth but taught to lie when it suited me.
I was told to be responsible but taught to be lazy because I was tired after a days work.
I was told to share with siblings but never once taught to give to the needy.
I was told to clean my room and was taught this as well. hurray for me!
I was told never to say the “N” word in public but taught it was okay in our home amongst family.
I was told to go to church but was taught that religion stopped at the church exit.
Click to expand...
Yes, in Catechism I used to memorize where the 3 evils come: “the world” (your message), “the devil” (I supremely believes he exists), and “the flesh” (ourselves).

My favorite of the Great St. Paul: “I do the evil I do not want, and I do not do the good that I want!”.

Not one of my students felt that this sentence was alien to hem/her.
 
fakename said:
Yes, reason and nature have many meanings and I heartilyaccept your resolution of the problem.

In the same vein, can we say that “nature” is also a potential and not always actual?
Can we say that “reason” is also potential and sometimes actual (as when a brain-dead person is called human but only because he has potential reason whereas a good man with reason is called “rational” in the fully actualized way)?
Click to expand...
Is this a good distinction?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top