Are people naturally virtuous/vicious or not?

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This topic, and the posts on it so far, illustrate the pros and the cons of this site. On the plus side, there are numerous individuals with a passionate belief about the issue and some interesting and good posts. On the other hand, all of us so far appear to be lay people, so these posts simply are opinions, some of which may be close to correct in terms of church teaching, and some of which would likely be way out there. Consequently, unless someone with apologetics training and a great knowledge of RC theology is opining on the matter, the person who asked the question still isn’t going to get a definitive response. Just my two-bits–I could be wrong and often am…
You are good, I tell you. It was not the Pope who wrote the Bible, but lay people.
These questions: origin of life, origin of man, sin, evil, suffering and death will remain clouded in mystery till the end of times.
Even Jesus Christ did not say why was He suffering in the cross, but to fulfill the Father’s wishes and to the salvation of Humanity. It is not enough for our curiosity.
Now, where does the evil come from, how is it that man is born evil (though good too for created by God), the original sin this tendency of man for the evil, is a deep and profound mystery.
Even the Popes kneel before this mystery and ask us to accept God’s will, no matter our understanding of things.
Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
 
An excellent response and one the Pope would approve of ( not that you would relish that).
I have no problem with the Pope agreeing with me :p:p

you do jump to conclusions when speaking of the actions of God.

One of the issues for me is some Catholics I’ve spoken with believe the events of the Bible are real. They then have to provide an explanation of the actions of God that would be viewed with suspicion.

It generally comes down to God can do what He wants because He is God and can’t do anything bad so if it looks bad to us, then we’re just to dumb to know God’s ways. Or some greater moral good was accomplished by the wiping out of a tribe - an argument the Catholic Church itself would condemn today since an evil can not be justified by claiming it was for a greater good. Or who are you to quesiton God?

Those who say it’s not literal but stories, I can understand a little better. But the jumping to conclusions is just indicitive of where my understanding is at, at the time - but it is difficult trying to get your head around the events of the OT when so many conflicting and contradictory views exist.

Sarah x 🙂
 
I have no problem with the Pope agreeing with me :p:p

One of the issues for me is some Catholics I’ve spoken with believe the events of the Bible are real. They then have to provide an explanation of the actions of God that would be viewed with suspicion.

It generally comes down to God can do what He wants because He is God and can’t do anything bad so if it looks bad to us, then we’re just to dumb to know God’s ways. Or some greater moral good was accomplished by the wiping out of a tribe - an argument the Catholic Church itself would condemn today since an evil can not be justified by claiming it was for a greater good. Or who are you to quesiton God?

Those who say it’s not literal but stories, I can understand a little better. But the jumping to conclusions is just indicitive of where my understanding is at, at the time - but it is difficult trying to get your head around the events of the OT when so many conflicting and contradictory views exist.

Sarah x 🙂
The Christian concept of the nature of God, as it was revealed in the person of JC, is that He’s patient, kind, true, trustworthy- even humble -IOW that God is love, and that love is therefore definitively revealed to be the highest good, foundational in some manner to this universe, and any behavior that’s inconsistent with love is less than the good it could and should otherwise be.

This has nothing to do with notions of good, more or less contrived, that come from trying to shoehorn ones’ personal opinions of good into alignment with theories of evolution and how natural selection may or may not have chosen certain behavior as beneficial for the species vs other behavior - because using this method one could simultaneously make a plausible case for both genocide and altruism as being beneficial for the human species- and the concept of good is then rendered totally subjective and relative … with the result that morality likewise becomes relative.
 
I have no problem with the Pope agreeing with me :p:p

you do jump to conclusions when speaking of the actions of God.
One of the issues for me is some Catholics I’ve spoken with believe the events of the Bible are real. They then have to provide an explanation of the actions of God that would be viewed with suspicion.

It generally comes down to God can do what He wants because He is God and can’t do anything bad so if it looks bad to us, then we’re just to dumb to know God’s ways. Or some greater moral good was accomplished by the wiping out of a tribe - an argument the Catholic Church itself would condemn today since an evil can not be justified by claiming it was for a greater good. Or who are you to quesiton God?

Those who say it’s not literal but stories, I can understand a little better. But the jumping to conclusions is just indicitive of where my understanding is at, at the time - but it is difficult trying to get your head around the events of the OT when so many conflicting and contradictory views exist.

Sarah x 🙂

Excellent move !
I have no problem with the Pope agreeing with me
👍
You are in the way, I think half way through !!! Now it only remains the parts where the Pope does not agree with you… You are close !!!

I think you have very few questions to put to the Bible. I could put 1000 questions more. Look, the Bible has got 72 books, written within a spam maybe of 4000 years. How can we dare to wish to understand it all ? There are scholars who spend an entire life studying one book and cannot understand all the details ! We do not need to !
Maybe you never read the entire Bible. I did ! There are passages which are hilarious, vicious, almost pornographic, misleading, in all, the Bible shows life as it is and how God showed Mankind the way to salvation.
You will find there crazy passages, like when David is dying and telling his son to kill the enemies he did not kill and finish the job. But this was 2500 years ago !
Now, there are historical passages: most of Jesus Life is true.
 
I have no problem with the Pope agreeing with me :p:p

you do jump to conclusions when speaking of the actions of God.
One of the issues for me is some Catholics I’ve spoken with believe the events of the Bible are real. They then have to provide an explanation of the actions of God that would be viewed with suspicion.

It generally comes down to God can do what He wants because He is God and can’t do anything bad so if it looks bad to us, then we’re just to dumb to know God’s ways. Or some greater moral good was accomplished by the wiping out of a tribe - an argument the Catholic Church itself would condemn today since an evil can not be justified by claiming it was for a greater good. Or who are you to quesiton God?

Those who say it’s not literal but stories, I can understand a little better. But the jumping to conclusions is just indicitive of where my understanding is at, at the time - but it is difficult trying to get your head around the events of the OT when so many conflicting and contradictory views exist.

Sarah x 🙂

Most Catholics, including myself, are not experts on interpreting the meaning of the Scriptures, so don’t expect a valid explanation on troublesome points from us/them. For us the Scriptures are ultimately understood only through the teaching of the Church, that is through the Magisterium of the Church. The best, immediate source for this is the Catichism of the Catholic Church.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM The Catechism is not however centered on Biblical interpretation, it is centered on the truths and knowledge necessary for salvation. One can come to an understanding of some passages from bibliaclerus.org/.

On the point you mentioned, the Catechism discusses " structures of sin " which may help you understand God’s actions in some circumstances. In O.T. times, God especially called a people to be a holy people and to carry his teachings to all other people. When these people failed in manifest ways, ways where in the whole population had become infected with sin and error ( a " structure " of sin passed from one to the other - father to son, mother to daughter, etc so that the whole community more or less was infected) he punished them. He had also instructed his people to act in his name when other tribes had become so infected with " structures of sin." In modern times it is difficult to know when God is acting in this way because he has not let us know speciffically why something bad is happening. I personally think he expects us to use our noodles. Though there seems to be little doubt that the wars we have had in the last century and before up to the present day are examples of this type. Of course in wars, the innocent will suffer too but the innocent have always suffer and we know that God has made provision in their behalf. Now there is no question that some suffer horribly, that is a sign that God is calling them to a high degree of holiness, to be be a sign of contrdiction, to be a living sign of the Cross his Son bore for us all. I know that may be getting a bit smaltzy for you but it is the truth. All of us suffer, we are to carry our crosses in union with the cross of his Son and offer it as a sacrefice for the conversion of others.
 
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