Are politically liberal Catholics happy with the Pope's new encyclical?

  • Thread starter Thread starter livingwordunity
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
triumphguy,

The “liberals” you talk about didn’t believe that abortion was a right and would have called you crazy if you would have suggested to them that marriage could be redefined to include two homosexuals. Your confusion is in mixing up today’s definition of the word “liberal” with a definition of it in the past. For example, the word “gay” used to mean happy. And now it means actively and politically homosexual.
 
The “liberals” you talk about didn’t believe that abortion was a right and would have called you crazy if you would have suggested to them that marriage could be redefined to include two homosexuals.
That’s exactly my point.

That’s why I find the term “liberals,” especially when it’s used in a pejorative sense, such an empty meaningless phrase.

I’m a liberal - I believe in democracy, equal rights, a free market, private property, government by population not by class, etc., etc.

As a* liberal* I believe in human rights and as a catholic liberal I believe that these extend to the unborn, the migrant, etc;., etc.

So when the word liberal used as an insulting term I go “meh” 🤷 and switch off.

BTW I’m sure there many “conservatives” who are pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage etc., etc.
 
That’s exactly my point.

That’s why I find the term “liberals,” especially when it’s used in a pejorative sense, such an empty meaningless phrase.

I’m a liberal - I believe in democracy, equal rights, a free market, private property, government by population not by class, etc., etc.

As a* liberal* I believe in human rights and as a catholic liberal I believe that these extend to the unborn, the migrant, etc;., etc.

So when the word liberal used as an insulting term I go “meh” 🤷 and switch off.

BTW I’m sure there many “conservatives” who are pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage etc., etc.
👍:yup:
 
That’s exactly my point.

That’s why I find the term “liberals,” especially when it’s used in a pejorative sense, such an empty meaningless phrase.

I’m a liberal - I believe in democracy, equal rights, a free market, private property, government by population not by class, etc., etc.

As a* liberal* I believe in human rights and as a catholic liberal I believe that these extend to the unborn, the migrant, etc;., etc.

So when the word liberal used as an insulting term I go “meh” 🤷 and switch off.

BTW I’m sure there many “conservatives” who are pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage etc., etc.
Terms are only meaningless if everyone gets to define every word in the English language however they want without any logic, rhyme, or reason for it. One makes them meaningless that way by not following reason, by trying to make the exception into the rule. For a language to have any kind of intelligible coherence, there has to be rules, consistency, and commonality of usage for the words. One can’t honestly say that conservatives in general are Pro-Abortion. The “conservatives” who are Pro-Abortion are a special kind of “conservative” called “fiscal conservative”. These are in the minority among conservatives.
 
Triumphguy #75
Cos’ without “liberals” (like Adam Smith) you wouldn’t have a capitalist system and a free market economy, which has done everything to raise the standard of living of the world.
Let’s not confuse the confused with real progress in living standards.

The first examples of free enterprise appeared in the great Catholic monasteries, about the ninth century. (John Gilchrist, The Church and Economic Activity in the Middle Ages, St Martin’s Press1969, I; cf. op. cit (Stark) p xii, 55-58).

The fact is that Catholic philosophy and theology, based on reason and faith, enabled the birth of free enterprise. From the great monastic estates in the ninth century, immense increases in agricultural productivity grew from “such significant innovations as the switch to horses, the heavy moldboard plow, and the three-field system” away from subsistence agriculture to specialised crops and products, sold at a profit to initiate a cash economy. “As their incomes continued to mount, this led many monasteries to become banks, lending to the nobility.” The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 58].

In developing an understanding of the laws of free enterprise, “The Schoolmen determined that wages, profits and rents are not for the government to decide. Since they are beyond the sphere of distributive justice, they should be determined by common estimation in the market.” Christians For Freedom, Dr Alejandro Chafuen, Ignatius 1986, p 122].

Randall Collins has noted that innovation and specialization in the monastic estates was “a version of the developed characteristics of capitalism itself… the dynamism of the medieval economy was primarily that of the Church.” [Randall Collins, The *Sociology of Philosophies: A Global Theory of Intellectual Change, 1998, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, p 47].

Their thinking on economics was insightful and strikingly modern, especially since they were writing long before the 18th century appearance of the Scottish Enlightenment and Adam Smith.
The British historian and social writer, William Lecky (1880) notes that around 1200 AD:
"Christianity for the first time made charity a rudimentary virtue, giving it a leading place in the moral type, and in the exhortation of its teachers. Besides its general influence in stimulating the affections, it effected a complete revolution in this sphere, by regarding the poor as the special representatives of the Christian Founder, and thus making the love of Christ, rather than the love of man the principle of charity . . . . . A vast organization of charity, presided over by Bishops, and actively directed by the deacons, soon ramified over Christendom, till the bond of charity became the bond of unity, and the most distant sections of the Christian Church corresponded by the interchange of mercy.” (History of European Morals from Augustus to Charlemagne, Part 2, p 79).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodality_(Catholic_Church

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization
by Thomas E. Woods Jr. - published by Regnery Publishing, 2005
A Book Review by Father John McCloskey

Of course, realizing that modern economics owes much of its basic understanding to Catholic thought can encourage society to pay greater attention to the papal teachings on social justice, ranging over the course of a century from Leo XIII’s *Rerum Novarum *to John Paul II’s Centesimus Annus.
This perspective is particularly important given our increasingly rapid transition to a global economy. Woods proceeds to examine the work of the late Scholastics (writing in the 15th and 16th centuries) on inflation, the foreign exchange market, the value of money, just price interest rates, etc. Their thinking on economics was insightful and strikingly modern, especially since they were writing long before the 18th century appearance of the Scottish Enlightenment and Adam Smith
catholicity.com/mccloskey/westernciv.html
First appeared in National Catholic Register, September 11, 2005 issue.
 
Terms are only meaningless if everyone gets to define every word in the English language however they want without any logic, rhyme, or reason for it. One makes them meaningless that way by not following reason, by trying to make the exception into the rule. For a language to have any kind of intelligible coherence, there has to be rules, consistency, and commonality of usage for the words. One can’t honestly say that conservatives in general are Pro-Abortion. The “conservatives” who are Pro-Abortion are a special kind of “conservative” called “fiscal conservative”. These are in the minority among conservatives.
You make a good point. No one should generalize an entire group, because there are exceptions.
 
I didn’t see anything political in it. I do not get the question? 🤷
I know.

It’s injecting politics to start a tiff. I guess I would call it “political baiting”.

Church teaching and Papal encyclicals transcend “left or right” “liberal or Conservative”.
 
I know.

It’s injecting politics to start a tiff. I guess I would call it “political baiting”.

Church teaching and Papal encyclicals transcend “left or right” “liberal or Conservative”.
👍 :yup:
 
But what I don’t like is how one group claims to be doing so much for the poor when in reality they are doing nothing for the poor (in fact, the poor and middle class are becoming worse off) and everything to promote pet agendas like abortion and so-called “same-sex marriage”.
Add to that the fact that in spite of not changing the plight of the poor and disenfranchised they (the poor) continue to vote for the above mentioned group!:eek:
 
Add to that the fact that in spite of not changing the plight of the poor and disenfranchised they (the poor) continue to vote for the above mentioned group!:eek:
Yeah, my wife is Mexican, and she said that Mexicans are protesting that they didn’t get what they were promised. But she told her family that they were promised the same thing before by this liberal political group and got nothing, so what did they expect would change by voting for the same person again? Ditto for Catholics.
 
Let’s not confuse the confused with real progress in living standards.

The first examples of free enterprise appeared in the great Catholic monasteries, about the ninth century. (John Gilchrist, The Church and Economic Activity in the Middle Ages, St Martin’s Press1969, I; cf. op. cit (Stark) p xii, 55-58).

The fact is that Catholic philosophy and theology, based on reason and faith, enabled the birth of free enterprise. From the great monastic estates in the ninth century, immense increases in agricultural productivity grew from “such significant innovations as the switch to horses, the heavy moldboard plow, and the three-field system” away from subsistence agriculture to specialised crops and products, sold at a profit to initiate a cash economy. “As their incomes continued to mount, this led many monasteries to become banks, lending to the nobility.” The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 58].

In developing an understanding of the laws of free enterprise, “The Schoolmen determined that wages, profits and rents are not for the government to decide. Since they are beyond the sphere of distributive justice, they should be determined by common estimation in the market.” Christians For Freedom, Dr Alejandro Chafuen, Ignatius 1986, p 122].

Randall Collins has noted that innovation and specialization in the monastic estates was “a version of the developed characteristics of capitalism itself… the dynamism of the medieval economy was primarily that of the Church.” [Randall Collins, The *Sociology of Philosophies: A Global Theory of Intellectual Change
, 1998, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, p 47].

Their thinking on economics was insightful and strikingly modern, especially since they were writing long before the 18th century appearance of the Scottish Enlightenment and Adam Smith.
The British historian and social writer, William Lecky (1880) notes that around 1200 AD:
"Christianity for the first time made charity a rudimentary virtue, giving it a leading place in the moral type, and in the exhortation of its teachers. Besides its general influence in stimulating the affections, it effected a complete revolution in this sphere, by regarding the poor as the special representatives of the Christian Founder, and thus making the love of Christ, rather than the love of man the principle of charity . . . . . A vast organization of charity, presided over by Bishops, and actively directed by the deacons, soon ramified over Christendom, till the bond of charity became the bond of unity, and the most distant sections of the Christian Church corresponded by the interchange of mercy.” (History of European Morals from Augustus to Charlemagne, Part 2, p 79).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodality_(Catholic_Church

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization
by Thomas E. Woods Jr. - published by Regnery Publishing, 2005
A Book Review by Father John McCloskey

Of course, realizing that modern economics owes much of its basic understanding to Catholic thought can encourage society to pay greater attention to the papal teachings on social justice, ranging over the course of a century from Leo XIII’s *Rerum Novarum *to John Paul II’s Centesimus Annus.
This perspective is particularly important given our increasingly rapid transition to a global economy. Woods proceeds to examine the work of the late Scholastics (writing in the 15th and 16th centuries) on inflation, the foreign exchange market, the value of money, just price interest rates, etc. Their thinking on economics was insightful and strikingly modern, especially since they were writing long before the 18th century appearance of the Scottish Enlightenment and Adam Smith
catholicity.com/mccloskey/westernciv.html
First appeared in National Catholic Register, September 11, 2005 issue.

Rock on… “The Way, the Truth and the Life…”
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion…
Tune In to the Holy Spirit, Turn On to Jesus Christ and Drop Out of the culture of death…
 
The problem with both parties is its devoid of any statesman. Politicians go to D.C. and attain “tenure” and think they are entitled to stay their for life. The electorate baffles me, for example how can John McCain continue to be elected year after year? Ted Kennedy when he was alive? I could go on and on.

Pax,
Tarpeian
 
…The first examples of free enterprise appeared in the great Catholic monasteries, about the ninth century. (John Gilchrist, The Church and Economic Activity in the Middle Ages, St Martin’s Press1969, I; cf. op. cit (Stark) p xii, 55-58).

The fact is that Catholic philosophy and theology, based on reason and faith, enabled the birth of free enterprise. From the great monastic estates in the ninth century, immense increases in agricultural productivity grew from “such significant innovations as the switch to horses, the heavy moldboard plow, and the three-field system” away from subsistence agriculture to specialised crops and products, sold at a profit to initiate a cash economy. “As their incomes continued to mount, this led many monasteries to become banks, lending to the nobility.” The Victory of Reason, Rodney Stark, Random House, 2005, p 58].
One should not confuse subsistence patterns with economics.

It’s not economies that feed and sustain us, but God’s great creation and our patterns of eking a living out of it, such as agriculture.

Economies are helpful in organizing production and distribution & exchange of goods and services, but they are contingent and instrumental. Without food (which is fundamental to life) grocery stores (which are admittedly very helpful to us) would be useless.

As for the economic system in monasteries, it is based on generalized reciprocity or primitive communism – not capitalism, which arose only within the past millennium.

And I’m all for the principles that guide monasteries – caring and sharing. Sounds Christian to me, and nothing at all like our current late capitalist economic system, which is focused on hording and gluttonizing, with multinationals gobbling up resources and excreting products and pollution and, along with us complicit people, destroying the life supports of God’s creation, which He provided for all of us, including future generations, not just the rich and not just this generation.

I do love Pope Francis’s new encyclical on faith (which shines rays of hope and charity on the mess we are in) and also that he has called on priests and nuns to have humble cars rather than luxury cars – reuters.com/article/2013/07/06/us-pope-cars-idUSBRE9650CU20130706
 
lynnvinc #92
As for the economic system in monasteries, it is based on generalized reciprocity or primitive communism – not capitalism, which arose only within the past millennium.
False.
We have seen the strong support for free enterprise by St John Paul II and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI (Abu #67) and both socialism and communism have been roundly condemned by both.

In his Christians For Freedom, Ignatius 1986, p 43-47, (with a new edition, since), Dr Chafuen notes that “many people close to Jesus were quite wealthy for their times. Joseph seems to have had his own business and perhaps a donkey; Peter owned a fishing boat, and Matthew was a tax collector. Jesus praised the rich man Zaccheus. It was the wealthy Joseph of Arimathea who kept faith even when the Apostles were beset by doubt (Mt 27:57). Jesus does not condemn the possession of riches but, rather disordered attachment to them.” Notice also that Jesus did not ask His Apostles to renounce their property.

Some misrepresent Acts 2:44-47, where the faithful lived together and owned everything in common – foolishly called “primitive communism”.
These so-called “Apostolics” were condemned by St Thomas and the Late Scholastics, who quote St Augustine. Why?
In his Summa, II-II, Q. 66, art. 2, resp., St Thomas quotes St Augustine: “Augustine says: ‘The people styled apostolic are those who arrogantly claimed this title for themselves because they refused to admit married folk or property owners to their fellowship, arguing from the model of the many monks and clerics in the Catholic Church (De Haeresibus 40).’ But such people are heretics because they cut themselves off from the Church by alleging that those who, unlike themselves, marry and own property have no hope of salvation.”

More confirmation:
‘Free enterprise economic development started in the great Catholic monastic estates of the ninth century, and a solid basis of economic Catholic thought developed from the fourteenth century. In the fifteenth century the Late Scholastics who were Thomists (followers of St Thomas) “writing and teaching at the University of Salamanca in Spain, sought to explain the full range of human action and social organization.” They “observed the existence of economic law, inexorable forces of cause and effect that operate very much as other natural laws. Over the course of several generations, they discovered and explained the laws of supply and demand, the cause of inflation, the operation of foreign exchange rates, and the subjective nature of economic value…” For these reasons Joseph Schumpeter applauded them as the first real economists.’ (Thomas E Woods Jr, The Church And The Market, Lexington Books, 2005, p 8).

In the Encyclical Letter Sollicitudo Rei Socialis (On Social Concerns), 1987, #42, St John Paul II teaches: “Likewise, in this concern for the poor, one must not overlook that special form of poverty which consists in being deprived of fundamental human rights, in particular the right to religious freedom and also the right to freedom of economic initiative.”

From *Centesimus Annus *(St John Paul II, 1991):
“48. Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principle task of the State is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labours and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. The absence of stability, together with the corruption of public officials and the spread of improper sources of growing rich and of easy profits deriving from illegal or purely speculative activities, constitutes one of the chief obstacles to development and to the economic order.”

Free enterprise doesn’t emphasise greed and self over the common good – does anyone know of any legitimate business that can survive without giving its customers value for money, with other similar businesses competing for the customers’’ patronage? Is the State going to do a better job of allocation of scarce resources? Too many people are greedy and selfish. That’s why we have laws to seek and punish those who steal, cheat, swindle, and worse crimes.

The world is in a mess in every respect partly because so few Catholics have taken take the time and trouble to follow Christ by using their God-given reason and the wise counsel offered by the relevant teaching of His Church.
 
False.

Capitalism didn’t exist until the 18th Century.
Marxism didn’t exist until the 19th Century.

The monasteries were not “free enterprise.”

The idea of Free Enterprise didn’t exist until Adam Smith and his “lassiez faire” economics letting the “invisible hand” work on the economy.
 
“The first setting in which faith enlightens the human city is the family. I think first and foremost of the stable union of man and woman in marriage.” - Lumen Fidei, Pope Francis
I personally don’t see anything ‘political’ about his encyclical. The Pope put out an encyclical about an aspect of Church teaching, and Catholics should to read it and look to it as a way to live their lives – just like any other encyclical. When one reads and encyclical, they reading a letter from the Pope to the people as a guide. I’m sure people don’t expect to read anything else but that. It has nothing to do with politics.
 
I personally don’t see anything ‘political’ about his encyclical. The Pope put out an encyclical about an aspect of Church teaching, and Catholics should to read it and look to it as a way to live their lives – just like any other encyclical. When one reads and encyclical, they reading a letter from the Pope to the people as a guide. I’m sure people don’t expect to read anything else but that. It has nothing to do with politics.
I didn’t say that his encyclical was political. Sorry that so many people got confused by the title of the OP. I wish a mod would delete this thread.
 
triumphguy #94
Capitalism didn’t exist until the 18th Century….The monasteries were not “free enterprise.”
We already have the facts from Rodney Stark, and John Gilchrist (post 85#) and from Dr Thomas E Woods Jr (post #93) of the development of free enterprise from the ninth century on the monastic estates. It is high time to face reality.
The idea of Free Enterprise didn’t exist until Adam Smith and his “lassiez faire” economics letting the “invisible hand” work on the economy.
Myopic.

Jesuit thought…“encouraged the rise of a system based on private property…have a long tradition and are rooted in the writings of Aristotle, St Thomas Aquinas and their Scholastic followers. The Late Scholastic Jesuits were outstanding…”

“In Germany the Hispanic Scholastics had a great impact on the writings of Samuel Pufendorf (1632-1694). Through Grotius, Pufendorf and the Physiocrats, many Late Scholastic ideas influenced Anglo-Saxon economic thought, especially the ‘Scottish School’ consisting of Ferguson…Hutchinson…and Smith (c. 1723-1790).”
Note: “Adam Smith included many quotations from Grotius and Pufendorf in his Lectures on Justice.”
[Dr Alejandro Chafuen, *Christians For Freedom, p 25].

The Catholic stress on individualism was foreign to many cultures, and Jeremy Waldron, in God, Locke and Equality, 2002, affirms that Locke built his thesis on the doctrine concerning morality; “returning to the standpoint of St Thomas and the Scholastics.” (The Catholic Church And the Counter-Faith, Philip Trower, Family Publications, 2006, p 74).

“We can this affirm unambiguously that Jesus Christ ‘looks with love on upon human work’ and that the work of the merchant – the businessman or the entrepreneur – is one of the ‘different forms’ of work that is affirmed. The parable of the talents makes this clear by its reference to money, trading, risk taking and banking.”
Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 48-49].

Christ’s parable of the Talents most strikingly acknowledges Christ’s respect for the work of business, as does the parable of the Dishonest Steward – the steward is dishonest, “but the nature of his work is not. In fact by praising his shrewdness, Christ admires his opportunism. While the steward abuses the trust his master extends to him, it must be recognised that the nature of the work that is entrusted to him is fundamentally good. The sin of the steward is his misuse of his master’s business, not the work of business itself.” [Fr Percy, op. cit. p 47].

Until posters face the reality of the free enterprise laws discovered and developed by the Catholic Late Scholastics, and what they mean, the confusion will be endless.

It is only the development of the economic laws of cause and effect by the Catholic Late Scholastics based on faith and reason which enabled the enrichment of untold millions from the poverty before the enterprises that came with the “Industrial Revolution”. As with any new developments, unfortunately laws can be slow to follow, especially where reason and faith are confused or lacking.
 
Free enterprise didn’t exist until there was a free market, with free labour and free trade.

Monasteries existed in feudal times. These things did not exist, despite what your authors state.
 
Free enterprise didn’t exist until there was a free market, with free labour and free trade.

Monasteries existed in feudal times. These things did not exist, despite what your authors state.
Have you ever heard of the School of Salamanca?

There might not have been free enterprise as we think of it today, but the ideas behind the free market were already there thanks to various Jesuits and Dominicans.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top