I think its about recognizing the inherent empathy that we feel towards some creatures as opposed to others. Purely from a logical standpoint though it doesn’t make a lot of sense. Either a creature has an immortal soul or it doesn’t. All creatures that don’t have immortal souls should be treated equally if you look at it like that. It shouldn’t just be about who can make a sound when they are in pain.Pitcharan is making a brilliant commentary. Do people realize that dumping boiling water down the drain causes death to millions of bacteria and fungi? Where does it begin and end?
I’m going to assume that you are joking here. Vegans are fully aware that plants in some sense react to external stimuli. However, the non-existence of a central nervous system means that that pain is quantifiably less than that of an animal. The purpose of veganism is to cause as little pain as possible through their actions and their diet. Eating a plant is causing less pain than eating an animal. It’s as simple as that.They also don’t know that plants have life and feelings just like animals. Vegans are worse than carnivores because they prey on helpless plants that can neither defend themselves nor run away from their predators.
I think everyone can agree with that principle of causing less pain, but I think where people differ is in how important that principle is with respect to others.I’m going to assume that you are joking here. Vegans are fully aware that plants in some sense react to external stimuli. However, the non-existence of a central nervous system means that that pain is quantifiably less than that of an animal. The purpose of veganism is to cause as little pain as possible through their actions and their diet. Eating a plant is causing less pain than eating an animal. It’s as simple as that.
When was the last time you visited a slaughter house? The animals are not able to defend themselves from behind bars and against electric shocks.
The no honey thing tends to be more of an environmental concern than an animal rights one.Inrerestingly I just learned that vegans do not consume honey (or some vegans)
So does an insect have greater value than a human being in its earliest stages?
Why let pain be the overruling factor that dictates your decision making? Pain in and of itself is not bad. It almost always takes some amount of pain, in order to fix something. A lot of people would claim that you will cause a woman more pain in the long run, if she has an abortion as opposed to not.I am a pro-choice vegan. For me it comes down to consciousness, ability to suffer, and interest in living. Because of the lack of brain development a fetus in the first and second trimester is not aware of its own existence and does not have a vested interest in living. A cow does. A cow can also feel physical pain and emotional distress. A fetus, especially in the first three months cannot.
And since a woman is fully conscious and has a vested interest in her life, I side with her over the unconscious fetus.
Well to some vegans, it is about the killing of some bees, even non intentionally and the destruction of homes. BTW I am vegetarian trying to be vegan. To me the environment is about sustaining aagood life and life for all who live on it , humans and non humans.The no honey thing tends to be more of an environmental concern than an animal rights one.
If you have read my posts on animal threads, you would know that I am an animal rights activist. I must differ with you on this. I am pro all life, life is life. I am against aborting animal fetuses and I am against aborting human fetuses. While I can understand victims of rape and incest choosing abortion, I have absolutely no sympathy for women who decide it is not convenient time to have a child or that they never wanted one and proceed with abortions. Yes, women have choice and have rights over their own bodies - this to me means the right to or not to have sex and the right to ensure that if they decide to have sex, they ensure they do not get pregnant if they do. Once they make the decision to have sex, then it is not just about them if they get pregnant. BTW as a Catholic, I must state that the Church’s position is that there should be no sex outside marriage and no ABC.I am a pro-choice vegan. For me it comes down to consciousness, ability to suffer, and interest in living. Because of the lack of brain development a fetus in the first and second trimester is not aware of its own existence and does not have a vested interest in living. A cow does. A cow can also feel physical pain and emotional distress. A fetus, especially in the first three months cannot.
And since a woman is fully conscious and has a vested interest in her life, I side with her over the unconscious fetus.
I agree. However my understanding has always been that while plants do react to stimuli like a sunflower always turning towards the sun but there is no pain as such. I like to refer to Genesis where God gave animals the grass etc to eat and Adam and Eve the fruits of the tree, even allegorical, it does show God’s intention and what His creation was about.I’m going to assume that you are joking here. Vegans are fully aware that plants in some sense react to external stimuli. However, the non-existence of a central nervous system means that that pain is quantifiably less than that of an animal. The purpose of veganism is to cause as little pain as possible through their actions and their diet. Eating a plant is causing less pain than eating an animal. It’s as simple as that.
When was the last time you visited a slaughter house? The animals are not able to defend themselves from behind bars and against electric shocks.
I’ve always hated that “no abortion except in cases of rape or incest” outlook. It makes a child a punishment, not a blessing. Its a very “that woman got what she deserved for daring to be sexual and now she has to suffer with it” and that’s misogynistic, anti-child, and wrong. Either abortion is wrong because it’s murder or its not. Punishing women with children for sharing their bodies is evil.If you have read my posts on animal threads, you would know that I am an animal rights activist. I must differ with you on this. I am pro all life, life is life. I am against aborting animal fetuses and I am against aborting human fetuses. While I can understand victims of rape and incest choosing abortion, I have absolutely no sympathy for women who decide it is not convenient time to have a child or that they never wanted one and proceed with abortions. Yes, women have choice and have rights over their own bodies - this to me means the right to or not to have sex and the right to ensure that if they decide to have sex, they ensure they do not get pregnant if they do. Once they make the decision to have sex, then it is not just about them if they get pregnant. BTW as a Catholic, I must state that the Church’s position is that there should be no sex outside marriage and no ABC.
Nate13;8814738 [QUOTE said:]
Pain in and of itself is not bad.Why let pain be the overruling factor that dictates your decision making?
I think you have misunderstood me. A child is always a blessing, even a child of rape or incest. I can understand a decistion to abort by a traumatised victim of rape or incest, but that is not a support of abortion. I am also very much a feminist and I think my view is about treating a woman as an adult who is fully capable of making her own decisions, who does not have to submit to her husband, who is entitled to an equal say in marriage and is not under anyone’s authority, to give sme examples… I also hate this view of ‘poor’ fathers who can’t stop ‘evil’ women from aborting their babies, conveniently ignoring the fact that those fathers were never interested in legalising their legal positions, as in wanting sex but no commitment/marriage.I’ve always hated that “no abortion except in cases of rape or incest” outlook. It makes a child a punishment, not a blessing. Its a very “that woman got what she deserved for daring to be sexual and now she has to suffer with it” and that’s misogynistic, anti-child, and wrong. Either abortion is wrong because it’s murder or its not. Punishing women with children for sharing their bodies is evil.
I’d like to get back on topic, because this thread seems to have become about animal rights and ‘pain’, versus the topic at hand. I do not think that veganism in and of itself ever causes dehumanization. I think the tenants of veganism should rather lend to a pro-life situation. I think you’ll find that those who are pro-choice often are very extreme in their views. Even to the point of thinking that it would be better to wipe out all of mankind, so that animals can be free to live on the planet without us. Most of them have an extreme amount of hate, but that’s not from veganism.Are pro-choice vegans mildly guilty of dehumanization? Vegans have such a high degree of respect for animals that they don’t want to inconvenience a cow to be placed in a pen to be connected to a milk machine, yet she will abort part of her own flesh and blood growing inside her. Where are the priorities? When push comes to shove, I doubt that many of these sensitive pro-choice vegans could really have an abortion. It seems logical that there should be more pro-life vegans than pro-choice vegans. Thoughts?
Pain only losses relevance when we let it. We can always strive to offer up our sufferings to God and ask him to make our sufferings meaningful. We should all take up our cross everyday whatever it is and carry if for the Lord.Soory, not sure what the relevance is to to causing pain to animals.
Children are punishment?Punishing women with children for sharing their bodies is evil.
Partial Birth Abortion pokes a pair of scissors through the back of the skull of a perfectly viable fetus whose head-only sees the light of the room (partially born), the doctor opens the scissors several times to create a larger hole in the back of the skull, and then a vacuum tube is shoved inside to suck the brain out. Regular abortion cuts off the blood supply until the fetus dies. Our President was one of the few legislators in favor of terminating the baby’s life if it was accidentally fully born during an abortion attempt. Imagine being the nurse charged with the duty of placing the baby in a tub of water to drown due to that legislation. If it was not feeling pain or struggling to survive, it wouldn’t move. I just don’t see how a vegan can honestly claim there’s no human suffering in abortion. I’m not holding them to a standard above the rest of society. I’m simply holding them to their own alleged standards. Rationalizing, ignoring the facts, and pretending = dehumanization.I’d like to get back on topic, because this thread seems to have become about animal rights and ‘pain’, versus the topic at hand. I do not think that veganism in and of itself ever causes dehumanization. I think the tenants of veganism should rather lend to a pro-life situation. I think you’ll find that those who are pro-choice often are very extreme in their views. Even to the point of thinking that it would be better to wipe out all of mankind, so that animals can be free to live on the planet without us. Most of them have an extreme amount of hate, but that’s not from veganism.
So are pro-choice vegans guilty of dehumanization? Not anymore than pro-choice anyone else. Anyone who is pro-choice is guilty of it, not just vegans. The problem is that by saying that a vegan should be pro-life, you are holding them to a standard we aren’t holding all of society too because of their beliefs. (We do that a lot in our world, confuse orthodoxy with orthopraxy.) All people should be pro-life, not pro-choice, we could say that Christians who are pro-choice are also guilty of dehumanization.
Yes, I agree with your first para. On your 2nd para, animals and young children do not understand and so pain is all of importance with regard to them.Pain only losses relevance when we let it. We can always strive to offer up our sufferings to God and ask him to make our sufferings meaningful. We should all take up our cross everyday whatever it is and carry if for the Lord.
The relevance is in why should we let the amount of pain someone or something suffers be the defining factor in making decisions?
Good points.I’d like to get back on topic, because this thread seems to have become about animal rights and ‘pain’, versus the topic at hand. I do not think that veganism in and of itself ever causes dehumanization. I think the tenants of veganism should rather lend to a pro-life situation. I think you’ll find that those who are pro-choice often are very extreme in their views. Even to the point of thinking that it would be better to wipe out all of mankind, so that animals can be free to live on the planet without us. Most of them have an extreme amount of hate, but that’s not from veganism.
So are pro-choice vegans guilty of dehumanization? Not anymore than pro-choice anyone else. Anyone who is pro-choice is guilty of it, not just vegans. The problem is that by saying that a vegan should be pro-life, you are holding them to a standard we aren’t holding all of society too because of their beliefs. (We do that a lot in our world, confuse orthodoxy with orthopraxy.) All people should be pro-life, not pro-choice, we could say that Christians who are pro-choice are also guilty of dehumanization.
I am not sure about giving graphic details of late term abortion.Partial Birth Abortion pokes a pair of scissors through the back of the skull of a perfectly viable fetus whose head-only sees the light of the room (partially born), the doctor opens the scissors several times to create a larger hole in the back of the skull, and then a vacuum tube is shoved inside to suck the brain out. Regular abortion cuts off the blood supply until the fetus dies. Our President was one of the few legislators in favor of terminating the baby’s life if it was accidentally fully born during an abortion attempt. Imagine being the nurse charged with the duty of placing the baby in a tub of water to drown due to that legislation. If it was not feeling pain or struggling to survive, it wouldn’t move. I just don’t see how a vegan can honestly claim there’s no human suffering in abortion. I’m not holding them to a standard above the rest of society. I’m simply holding them to their own alleged standards. Rationalizing, ignoring the facts, and pretending = dehumanization.