Are protestants able to go to Heaven?

[Trevor_Stamm]

Thus if someone thinks that the claims of the Catholic Church may have some merit then that person is bound by moral diligence to research the matter.

Agreed

Failing to do that means that their ignorance is not invinceable and salvation is not possible.

That’s counter Catechism. No salvation outside the church is not aimed at those, with no fault of their own, did not know Christ or his Church. I said this earlier in the thread, the Catechism is very specific on using the word “know”, it is to be certain of without doubt. If a person failed to research the matter, by whatever reason, they are still in the territory of doubt with the Church, which means the person did not “know” the Church fully and could not draw a conclusion on the matter truly.

Would you fail a history student who was supplied with incorrect text books of the Middle Ages and drew incorrect conclusions of the Middle Ages? He would require re-education with correct text books. The fault of his incorrect conclusions is directly blameworthy of the textbooks he was given. Given the correct text this time, the student will reevaluate his conclusions and correct his mistakes.

But just because salvation is default if they led a good life and did not know the Truth, does not mean they’ll be rewarded equally with those that did know the Truth and followed it. The Good Thief on the cross is not going to be given the same grace as The Blessed Virgin Mary or The Apostles, or Saints.

Again in the same situation if someone did research the matter and found the claims of the Catholic Church to be true but did not join it for any reason then that person forfeits their salvation also.

Agreed. But I don’t know anyone who truly knows the Church and knows it to be the truth, and still will not join, its counter logic.

 

[AveChriste11]

Trevor,

I believe many of the claims of Catholicism to be true – things which the Eastern Patriarchs haven’t made a ruling on just yet. I’d be completely happy just being Eastern Orthodox, until they made a decision as to how reunion should go about…

I don’t think that would necessarily go against logic… I’m not Orthodox yet, but hopefully will be eventually.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

That’s too bad. Dear man, I’m sure he was just being too hard on himself, bless his soul.

He admitted he tended to be negative. However I also think part of his problem was his accuracy with the information God was giving him.

For example suppose a couple came to him for counselling about their marriage. Despite the sincerity of his advice, I think he knew with almost 100% accuracy whether their marriage was going to collapse or not even as they walked out the door. He would have known if somebody was likely to fall away from the faith, and so on.

And he felt we were long overdue for judgement.

He once commented that “I think they (Catholics) soft pedal judgement. I think they do anyway”.

 

[inkaneer]

Originally Posted by inkaneer
Thus if someone thinks that the claims of the Catholic Church may have some merit then that person is bound by moral diligence to research the matter.

Failing to do that means that their ignorance is not invinceable and salvation is not possible.

Failing to do that means that their ignorance is not invinceable and salvation is not possible.

That’s counter Catechism. No salvation outside the church is not aimed at those, with no fault of their own, did not know Christ or his Church. I said this earlier in the thread, the Catechism is very specific on using the word “know”, it is to be certain of without doubt. If a person failed to research the matter, by whatever reason, they are still in the territory of doubt with the Church, which means the person did not “know” the Church fully and could not draw a conclusion on the matter truly.

Would you fail a history student who was supplied with incorrect text books of the Middle Ages and drew incorrect conclusions of the Middle Ages? He would require re-education with correct text books. The fault of his incorrect conclusions is directly blameworthy of the textbooks he was given. Given the correct text this time, the student will reevaluate his conclusions and correct his mistakes.

But just because salvation is default if they led a good life and did not know the Truth, does not mean they’ll be rewarded equally with those that did know the Truth and followed it. The Good Thief on the cross is not going to be given the same grace as The Blessed Virgin Mary or The Apostles, or Saints.

I disagree with you. The key factor here is moral diligence. If a person thinks that the claims of the Catholic Church may have some merit then that person is bound by moral diligence to research the matter. The Catholic encyclopedia expounds on this:

“Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory. This manifestly includes the states of inadvertence, forgetfulness, etc. Such ignorance is obviously involuntary and therefore not imputable. On the other hand, ignorance is termed *vincible *if it can be dispelled by the use of “moral diligence”. This certainly does not mean all possible effort; otherwise, as Ballerini naively says, we should have to have recourse to the pope in every instance. We may say, however, that the diligence requisite must be commensurate with the importance of the affair in hand, and with the capacity of the agent, in a word such as a really sensible and prudent person would use under the circumstances.”

Notice the underlined portion. I would submit that one’s eternal salvation is the one singular important matter that one is faced with and thus demands that one devote all the diligence one is capable of mustering. Therefore, as I said before, “Failing to do that means that their ignorance is not invinceable and salvation is not possible.”

 

[Della]

He admitted he tended to be negative. However I also think part of his problem was his accuracy with the information God was giving him.

For example suppose a couple came to him for counselling about their marriage. Despite the sincerity of his advice, I think he knew with almost 100% accuracy whether their marriage was going to collapse or not even as they walked out the door. He would have known if somebody was likely to fall away from the faith, and so on.

That would be disheartening and one of the pitfalls of being a director of souls. We need to pray for our priests and all who minister to others under their spiritual care.

And he felt we were long overdue for judgement.

He once commented that “I think they (Catholics) soft pedal judgement. I think they do anyway”.

Many would agree with him there. We have seen a resurgence of priests talking about judgment and sin, but not as much as we need, IMHO. The thing is, the Church has often gone through periods in which it’s ministers thought they could soften that message and it would be more welcome than “fire and brimestone”, but failing to tell the truth, no matter how hard it might be to hear is not the answer. We are seeing the fruits of that kind of thinking now.

It puts me in mind of a line from a Gene Wilder film, set in the Old West, in which he is a new rabbi, but the leaders of his new congregation think another man is the new rabbi because of the way he’s dressed. Gene Wilder, the rabbi, scolds the leaders of the congregation, saying, “And who are you to judge another by appearances?” Instead of sulking, as we moderns might do, the elder of the congregation shouts with glee, “We have a Rabbi!” I truly believe if our priests would only find some backbone and preach what needs to be preached with power and authority, we’d see fallen away Catholics returning, as well as converts coming in, because the true message of repentance is always what draws people. It is what they need and, deep down, what they long for.

 

[BrushedByAngels]

Are protestants able to go to Heaven? Can they be saved?

Apparently if you are Protestant by birth you can go to heaven. But if you are a Catholic at any point in your life and leave the Church to become a Protestant, you will burn in the fires of hell. This is what I am gathering on the forums. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[inkaneer]

Apparently if you are Protestant by birth you can go to heaven. But if you are a Catholic at any point in your life and leave the Church to become a Protestant, you will burn in the fires of hell. This is what I am gathering on the forums. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Well yes and no. Being Catholoic covers a big area. A lot of people are Catholic because their family was Catholic. They haven’t a clue as to why. Very poor catechesis on the part of the family and the church means they are ignorant of why being Catholic means so much. Others have more knowledge. The more one has the stricter the standard. That does not let the ignorant off the hook however. At some point one must accept responsibility for ones self and make the necessary investigation into the claims of the Catholic Church. So there is really no pat answer for this question.

 

[meltzerboy]

Why limit to Protestants? It is also possible for Jews, Muslims, and other nonChristians to be saved. . .

IOW, what is the point of the question? Nobody ever said that ‘only Catholics are saved’. . .

Another poster summed it up pretty clearly. . .Catholics have the fullness of truth. Protestants have part of the truth.

Now, if I have a fully stocked pantry, I’m more likely to be able to cook a well-balanced, tasty and nutritious meal for my family.

If I have only a partly stocked pantry, I could still wind up with a well balanced, tasty and nutritious meal. . .but it would be harder work for me.

Of course, if I were a really good cook, I could take that partly stocked pantry and easily make a good meal. . .

and if I were a terrible cook, even a fully stocked pantry might not be enough for me to cook something edible.

But all things being equal. . .

If one assumes two people with average ability. . .

The person with the well stocked pantry is going to have an easier time producing a well balanced, tasty and nutritious meal than the person with the partially stocked pantry.

I like your very wise analogy; however, I would change the religious affiliations of who are the good and bad cooks and who have the well-stocked vs. ill-stocked pantries! Still, an interesting comparison.

 

[Della]

I like your very wise analogy; however, I would change the religious affiliations of who are the good and bad cooks and who have the well-stocked vs. ill-stocked pantries! Still, an interesting comparison.

Forgive me for jumping in here, but I just wanted to say that the Jewish pantry is very well stocked from the Catholic point of view. After all, Catholicism came out of Judaism and we use the same Scriptures in our liturgies and for inspiration–at least the part you acknowledge as your own.

It would be harder for someone outside the revelation of Abraham, Jacob, Moses and Jesus to grasp the basic questions regarding who man is in relationship to God and our need of his saving love. Both Jews and Catholics allow we need God to cleanse us and heal us because of the sin of Adam and Eve–the Psalms, which the Church recites daily, are full of this understanding.

A Hindu or Buddhist, for example, has no such understanding. So, in that regard, they have a less full pantry. But, since God’s grace has been poured out on mankind through the redemptive death and resurrection of Christ (as the Church teaches) even they have the grace of God to draw upon. They simply don’t have the same opportunities to draw on that grace that we do. If I may speak for Tantum ergo, that is what was meant by the analogy–at least as filtered through my understanding of his words.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Apparently if you are Protestant by birth you can go to heaven. But if you are a Catholic at any point in your life and leave the Church to become a Protestant, you will burn in the fires of hell. This is what I am gathering on the forums. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

You ‘can’ go to heaven even if you are an atheist, by choice (or a pagan, or any nonChristian). If you do, it won’t be because you are any of the above, or even because you ‘do good deeds’ as though that EARNS heaven. No, you will be saved if you are saved through the Catholic Church. We don’t know how God does that, but that is what He does.

If you are a Catholic, if you are convinced that the Church is ‘true’, but you leave and become protestant, or leave and become pagan, atheist, etc., NOT because you think they are true and the Catholicism is NOT, but rather even though you acknowledge the Church is the True church but you personally reject it, then UNLESS YOU REPENT BEFORE DEATH, your freely chosen consequence of your rejection of Gods truth, which is God as He is truth, would be hell.

Big difference, yes?

 

[BrushedByAngels]

You ‘can’ go to heaven even if you are an atheist, by choice (or a pagan, or any nonChristian). If you do, it won’t be because you are any of the above, or even because you ‘do good deeds’ as though that EARNS heaven. No, you will be saved if you are saved through the Catholic Church. We don’t know how God does that, but that is what He does.

If you are a Catholic, if you are convinced that the Church is ‘true’, but you leave and become protestant, or leave and become pagan, atheist, etc., NOT because you think they are true and the Catholicism is NOT, but rather even though you acknowledge the Church is the True church but you personally reject it, then UNLESS YOU REPENT BEFORE DEATH, your freely chosen consequence of your rejection of Gods truth, which is God as He is truth, would be hell.

Big difference, yes?

If a catholic christian believes the Catholic Church is the one true church but prefers to worship in an Anglican Catholic environment then that person will be going to Hell. Correct? Thats the way it was explained to me last week.

My boss at work is an Athiest and he thinks religion is a sign of weakness, he does not believe in God at all. (He and I get into heated discussions and its like talking to a wall - we are not on the same page.) He is a good person though… so are you saying he has a better chance at getting into heaven than someone who is RC and worships in an Anglican Catholic Church?

 

[JustaServant]

Who is in Heaven and who is in Hell is a matter available only to the Creator. That is why He is God and we are not. To entertain the idea that we can ‘know for sure’ is no different than the fundamentalist who pushes “once saved always saved”.
ALL OF US are consigned to the mercy of God.
That is a truth that humbles us and forces us not to speculate or presume.

 

[BrushedByAngels]

Who is in Heaven and who is in Hell is a matter available only to the Creator. That is why He is God and we are not. To entertain the idea that we can ‘know for sure’ is no different than the fundamentalist who pushes “once saved always saved”.
ALL OF US are consigned to the mercy of God.
That is a truth that humbles us and forces us not to speculate or presume.

I totally agree with you. However, there seems to be a lot of Catholics on this forum who know who is going to Hell According to them, If you don’t follow all of the rules of the church you will burn in hell for all eternity. Personally, I don’t believe in this but I can only think of one rule that I would / could see myself breaking and I can’t see where it would put me in Hell.

 

[Della]

If a catholic christian believes the Catholic Church is the one true church but prefers to worship in an Anglican Catholic environment then that person will be going to Hell. Correct? Thats the way it was explained to me last week.

My boss at work is an Athiest and he thinks religion is a sign of weakness, he does not believe in God at all. (He and I get into heated discussions and its like talking to a wall - we are not on the same page.) He is a good person though… so are you saying he has a better chance at getting into heaven than someone who is RC and worships in an Anglican Catholic Church?

Your boss’s atheism is not the same thing as a Catholic preferring to worship in an Anglican Catholic environment, it’s true. But, if a Catholic knowingly attends an Anglican parish not in communion with the Catholic Church instead of attending a Catholic parish for his Sunday obligation, then he is being disobedient and it is the disobedience that is the sin, not the preference for the Anglican form of worship.

And the atheist that has deliberately rejected God cannot go to God to have his sins forgiven and remain an atheist. He may have a conversion of heart and mind–such things have been known to happen, but if he rejects God, then God will not impose himself on him. It’s his choice. Niceness isn’t enough to satisfy the justice of God. Only the death of Christ on the cross could do that.

We are responsible for our deliberate choices to reject God or be disobedient. It takes humility to be obedient–that’s what God wants. To be disobedient when we know better is a deliberate act that cannot be excused–it can be forgiven, but not excused.

 

[phoebecat3]

The Holy Catholic Church means universal church, not just the RCC and yes I believe that Christians, no matter the denom will be in heaven. Christians is the operative word. There must be a relationship with Jesus. Jesus says no one gets to the father except thru HIm.
I have to admit I struggle with that though. I have a friend who recently died by his own hand, to make it worse he was not a Christian, he was a Buddhist. Now I know that God is the only one who decides who is in Heaven but I was and am deeply saddened not only by his death but also his eternal home.
I joked with my Lutheran pastor that I sure wished we had the doctrine of Pergurtory (sp?) in our denom because I would have loved it at that time.
But I don’t really understand that doctrine. If someone you know for sure is not a Christian do they go to Purg as well?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Are Protestants able to go to heaven? Of course…the catechism tells us so.

 

[BrushedByAngels]

My ex’s mother was a devout Christian. She was a born and raised catholic, then she became Baptist. I seriously thought she was going to Heaven. She rejected catholicism, but she was an example of a fine christian. I can’t imagine her not going to Heaven. I remember at her funeral thinking she will be in heaven very soon (because of her christianity)

So would you say she will spend eternity in Hell or Purgatory?

 

[BrushedByAngels]

If she is not in heaven because of her being born and raised catholic then rejecting catholicism, then there is no hope for me. She lived such a devout christian life more so than the majority of catholics that I know personally, including myself.

 

[SteveVH]

I totally agree with you. However, there seems to be a lot of Catholics on this forum who know who is going to Hell According to them, If you don’t follow all of the rules of the church you will burn in hell for all eternity. Personally, I don’t believe in this but I can only think of one rule that I would / could see myself breaking and I can’t see where it would put me in Hell.

I don’t know of any Catholic who has been properly catechized that believes they know who is going to hell, nor do I know anyone who believes that if you don’t follow all of the rules of the Church that you will burn in hell for eternity, although that may very well depend upon which rule is being broken and if it constitutes mortal sin.

What I do know is that it doesn’t matter what you personally believe, it matters what the Church teaches. While the Church stresses the mercy of God, it also cautions us that if we choose for ourselves what constitutes grave sin, in other words, if we become our own judges, we may very well find ourselves in hell.

 

[Godfollower]

The Holy Catholic Church means universal church, not just the RCC and yes I believe that Christians, no matter the denom will be in heaven. Christians is the operative word. There must be a relationship with Jesus. Jesus says no one gets to the father except thru HIm.
I have to admit I struggle with that though. I have a friend who recently died by his own hand, to make it worse he was not a Christian, he was a Buddhist. Now I know that God is the only one who decides who is in Heaven but I was and am deeply saddened not only by his death but also his eternal home.
I joked with my Lutheran pastor that I sure wished we had the doctrine of Pergurtory (sp?) in our denom because I would have loved it at that time.
But I don’t really understand that doctrine. If someone you know for sure is not a Christian do they go to Purg as well?

No. There are only two ultimate after-life destinations: Heaven and Hell. We know that there is more “territory” (so to speak) in the afterlife, because, for example, Jesus described a place in which He will say to those on His right, enter Heaven and those on His left, enter Hell (Mt. 25:31-46). So there’s a third place where the judgment occurs. But everyone will leave from that place to head toward Hell or Heaven (note verse 46: “And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting”).

However, nothing impure can enter Heaven (Rev. 21:27); and some of us who lack mortal sin but have venial sin (1 John 5:16-17) would by definition be impure. So, as Paul taught us, some of us will be rewarded, while others, while suffering a loss, will be saved “as through fire” (1 Cor. 3:11-15).

Purgatory is the name we give that place. We will be purged of whatever impurities remain in us before entering Heaven. It may have no time at all; it may seem like an eternity (so to speak). But it will be temporary, cleansing us before entering Heaven.

Purgatory is not a “third option” for the afterlife; it’s the place where you clean the dirt off before entering God’s presence.