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Hisalone
Guest
Just wondering.
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NDfan
Guest
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manualman
Guest
If they’ve been baptised in accordance with the way Jesus told us to do so, then we can confidently say YES!
If not, then the answer is: “I dunno. That’s GOD’s job to sort out.” For practical purposes, we default to “it’s entirely possible, but it isn’t the way Jesus established.”
If not, then the answer is: “I dunno. That’s GOD’s job to sort out.” For practical purposes, we default to “it’s entirely possible, but it isn’t the way Jesus established.”
po18guy
Well-known member
They are members of His Mystical Body, but remain our separated brothers and sisters.
Christ’s peace.
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heisenburg
Guest
If you are baptized in the name of the Father son holy spirit… Regardless of Place, Person, Denomination. etc
You are members of His Church…
Pretty simple
If you weren’t, as mentioned… it’ up to God to decide
In Christ
You are members of His Church…
Pretty simple
If you weren’t, as mentioned… it’ up to God to decide
In Christ
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Publisher
Guest
LOL!!! In that case I’m glad it’s up to God!!
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tundramom
Guest
With one minor caveat… Mormons are baptized this way but because of their heretical view of the Trinity, they are not included in this statement. Here’s a link to the official RCC statement on a Mormon baptism. vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni_en.html
in Christ
Steph
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roguejim
Guest
“Those who acknowledge Christ must acknowledge Him completely and entirely. The Head is the only-begotten Son of God; the Body is His Church. No one can in any way be counted among the children of God unless they take Jesus Christ as their Brother and, at the same time, the Church as their Mother. Christianity is, in fact, incarnate in the Catholic Church; it is identified with that perfect spiritual society which is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ and has for its visible head the Roman Pontiff. Consequently, all who wish to reach salvation outside the Church are mistaken as to the way and are engaged in a futile effort. This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it upon your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.”
POPE LEO XIII
“The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is Head and Savior. The “People of God” and the “Mystical Body of Christ” are one and the same thing, both of them designating the Church. Membership in the Church requires conditions other than Baptism alone; it requires identical faith and unity of communion, so that by means of the Catholic Church alone, which is the unrestricted instrument of salvation, is it possible to obtain the fulness of the means to salvation. Indeed, the Church is both a sure and an exclusive means of attaining salvation. We must always remember the unity of the Mystical Body outside which there is no salvation, for there is no entering into salvation outside the Church. Outside this Body, the Holy Spirit gives life to no one: those who are enemies to unity do not participate in the charity of Divine Life; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. The entrance to salvation is open to no one outside the Church!”
POPE PAUL VI
“The Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church is the only true Church of Jesus Christ. It is error to believe that men can find the path of eternal salvation and attain eternal salvation in the practice of any religion whatsoever. It is error to believe that Protestantism is nothing other than a different form of the same true Christian religion, in which it is permited to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.”
Ven POPE PIUS IX
Is the question answered here?
POPE LEO XIII
“The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is Head and Savior. The “People of God” and the “Mystical Body of Christ” are one and the same thing, both of them designating the Church. Membership in the Church requires conditions other than Baptism alone; it requires identical faith and unity of communion, so that by means of the Catholic Church alone, which is the unrestricted instrument of salvation, is it possible to obtain the fulness of the means to salvation. Indeed, the Church is both a sure and an exclusive means of attaining salvation. We must always remember the unity of the Mystical Body outside which there is no salvation, for there is no entering into salvation outside the Church. Outside this Body, the Holy Spirit gives life to no one: those who are enemies to unity do not participate in the charity of Divine Life; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. The entrance to salvation is open to no one outside the Church!”
POPE PAUL VI
“The Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church is the only true Church of Jesus Christ. It is error to believe that men can find the path of eternal salvation and attain eternal salvation in the practice of any religion whatsoever. It is error to believe that Protestantism is nothing other than a different form of the same true Christian religion, in which it is permited to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.”
Ven POPE PIUS IX
Is the question answered here?
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Della
Guest
No it isn’t because what you have quoted is out of context of the documents, the times, and the persons to whom they were addressed.
The Catechism has clarified the issue for us: Wounds to Unity.
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roguejim
Guest
I see…then it is just a matter of time before the quotes you provided from the Catechism will be obsolete, too?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
And to save us from them, Christ, Who is better than all the popes that ever could be
**That’s right, because we’ve got Him locked into submission so He can’t up off the canvas unless we allow Him to. Is that really the message you want people to take away ? If that’s the true teaching, why can the CC not be honest, & say, plainly & unambiguously & clearly & without the pretty frills something such as: “You Proddies are all moronic gits with about as much knowledge of Christ as an old fags packet, so your are all on a short cut to to Hell where you will all fry for ever for not submitting to the Most Holy Roman Church outside of which there is & was & shall & never can be any salvation whatsoever” ? **
**Why waste time faffing about being all smiley & ecumenical & co-operating with the “brethren in Christ”, if the CC really thinks the BIC are nothing but a lot of hell-fodder-in-waiting ? Why the insincerity & lack of truthfulness & honesty ? Or are truthfulness & honesty too much to expect from the CC ?
****This is the mirror-image of the silliness that leads men to believe all “Papists” are headed for the everlasting bonfire; one expects this of Ian Paisley, but not of a pope - the only difference is the label attached to the group of those who are “frying tonight”. This is infantile - & one must apologise heartily to infants for using the word **
**If God is pleased to bless Protestants as Protestants within Protestantism, what popes or others think is neither nor there. The world did without popes once, & it will get by without them again. **
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c659smith
Guest
I do not know why you are so angry at the Catholic Church, Your post is rather harsh. I also find it strange that you are listed as your religion as Catholic yet you hold so much anomosity.And to save us from them, Christ, Who is better than all the popes that ever could be
**That’s right, because we’ve got Him locked into submission so He can’t up off the canvas unless we allow Him to. Is that really the message you want people to take away ? If that’s the true teaching, why can the CC not be honest, & say, plainly & unambiguously & clearly & without the pretty frills something such as: “You Proddies are all moronic gits with about as much knowledge of Christ as an old fags packet, so your are all on a short cut to to Hell where you will all fry for ever for not submitting to the Most Holy Roman Church outside of which there is & was & shall & never can be any salvation whatsoever” ? **
**Why waste time faffing about being all smiley & ecumenical & co-operating with the “brethren in Christ”, if the CC really thinks the BIC are nothing but a lot of hell-fodder-in-waiting ? Why the insincerity & lack of truthfulness & honesty ? Or are truthfulness & honesty too much to expect from the CC ?
**This is the mirror-image of the silliness that leads men to believe all “Papists” are headed for the everlasting bonfire; one expects this of Ian Paisley, but not of a pope - the only difference is the label attached to the group of those who are “frying tonight”. This is infantile - & one must apologise heartily to infants for using the word
**If God is pleased to bless Protestants as Protestants within Protestantism, what popes or others think is neither nor there. The world did without popes once, & it will get by without them again. **
The world as you know it will always have a Pope for the Catholic Church is here to stay till Christ returns.
2000 plus years and counting. and 1.2 billion and counting.
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vocatio
Guest
I think Gottle Geer is angry at the SSPXer… My dad believed such and with a Protestant mother that hated Catholicism I had problems too growing up. This is something I expect to research much more fully in the near future. I’ve been thinking alot about this subject. This thread is a sign more me to do the research. I’ve been told that these documents were taken out of context and their meaning is not as it appears on here. So I plan to attack the issue soon.
I do believe that the only way to salvation is through the Catholic Church or better the Church of Christ…[not the Stone-Campbell movement though]. There seems to be much dispute on this in all honesty. I’ll will say that the Church also does not say that they are most certainly saved outside the Catholic Church, but rather they are saved through the Church and not of their own faiths. This is largely misunderstood. I try to keep my mind open since I have so many family members that are Protestant and have been since birth. But I fully believe that God is bigger than the Pope too.
In order for something to be “infallible” from a Pope it must be “from the holy see” on the matter of faith and morals. Anything beyond that is uncertain. I would have to do more research beyond that. If this is found to be the case …that the Catholic Churc is now teaching heresey, then the Bishops would have to gather together and reconsider everything since the doctrine of infalibility was addressed…That would mean a lot of things would requre reevaluation…but this would NOT mean that the Catholic Church is not the true church founded by Christ. That would mean that the SSPXers are right…and they’ve held fast to the faith. I’m sure they love that. But my faith is not dependent on them, but rather to my faithfullness to the Church to the best of my ability.
But if this is true then my mother is burning in the everlasting pits of hell with my brother, cousins and maybe my dad too that pushed such doctrines on me growing up. I guess done of us have a chance… and the Calvinists are right. Scary place to be then…it would have been better to never be born. So much anxiety built into this belief…only Catholics can be saved and only a few of those will make it.
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roguejim
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I share a few of your concerns, especially those in the last paragraph. However, no one can judge the ultimate end of anyone, Catholic or otherwise. We must not forget the “uncommon arrangement” of God of which no human is privy to. This would be the time(?) between our death and particular judgment. Some private revelations indicate that Our Merciful Lord calls out to those poor souls, even after death, who rejected His truth and mercy while they were still living.
The original posting concerned the status of Protestants with relation to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is/subsists in the Catholic Church. The CCC to my understanding seems to be at times, at odds with traditional teaching. I could easily have posted more quotations, but I thought those three were enough since they were so clear and unambiguous. Am I saying the CCC contains heresy. No. Like yourself, I am studying various issues. And, for the record, I am not an SSPXer. I am a Novus Ordo-er.
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promethius95945
Guest
Yes, insofar as what their “churches” have preserved of Christ’s truth, passed down through the Catholic church, they are members of that body of Christ and Catholics as well, though seperated bretheren.
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manualman
Guest
Context is quite important, if anyone is listening. IIRC, Leo was pope at the very beginning of the whole ‘reformation’ mess. At the time he spoke and wrote, there WERE no ‘protestants’ as we know them today (people who lived their whole lives never knowing anything BUT protestant theology and teaching). At that time there were only people who HAD been catholics, who should have known better, but were starting to spread false teaching in defiance of the Church’s authority. It was the very beginning of catastrophe and the pope tried to take strong measures to avoid the permanent rift we find ourselves in today.
What he said then applied to THAT situation (and perhaps applies to those in the Church today possibly contemplating schism to achieve their goals of women’s ordination, gay marriage, etc…). It does NOT apply to those brought up in protestant theology who sincerely believe it to be true and who have never had the priviledge of knowing and understanding the beauty and truth of the Catholic faith.
What he said then applied to THAT situation (and perhaps applies to those in the Church today possibly contemplating schism to achieve their goals of women’s ordination, gay marriage, etc…). It does NOT apply to those brought up in protestant theology who sincerely believe it to be true and who have never had the priviledge of knowing and understanding the beauty and truth of the Catholic faith.
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Della
Guest
Right. Which is what the CCC is saying. There is a big difference between those who deliberately separate themselves from the Catholic Church and those who have been life-long Protestants.
This is what I was referring to when I cited that the documents of the Church have their time and place when addressed to the persons of the times and places that are having a current difficulty/crisis. It is no more our place to second guess the Church’s documents that the Church alone has the authority to interpret in matters of faith and morals than to do it to the Bible.
Picking and choosing which documents of the Church one will hold to and which one won’t is what started the whole Protestant split in the first place!
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roguejim
Guest
“The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is Head and Savior. The “People of God” and the “Mystical Body of Christ” are one and the same thing, both of them designating the Church. Membership in the Church requires conditions other than Baptism alone; it requires identical faith and unity of communion, so that by means of the Catholic Church alone, which is the unrestricted instrument of salvation, is it possible to obtain the fulness of the means to salvation. Indeed, the Church is both a sure and an exclusive means of attaining salvation. We must always remember the unity of the Mystical Body outside which there is no salvation, for there is no entering into salvation outside the Church. Outside this Body, the Holy Spirit gives life to no one: those who are enemies to unity do not participate in the charity of Divine Life; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. The entrance to salvation is open to no one outside the Church!”
POPE PAUL VI
How are the Protestants in the time of Pope Paul VI different from those living today?
POPE PAUL VI
How are the Protestants in the time of Pope Paul VI different from those living today?
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Della
Guest
The CCC clarifies this for us, as well:
I will say again what I wrote in post #17:
Picking and choosing which documents of the Church one will hold to and which one won’t is what started the whole Protestant split in the first place!
The Church knows perfectly well what the popes have written. Or are you claiming the Magisterium has got it all wrong. If so, you are on very shaky ground indeed and are actually in more spiritual danger than life-long Protestants who at least can claim some ignorance.
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manualman
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I can play this game too. All those Eastern Catholic Churches are obviously non-believers outside the faith and doomed to hell. They demonstrably do not hold an “identical faith” on quite a number of issues. Thus, they are ALL flame bait.
NO, I don’t believe my own above statements.
I’m just doing the same sort of thing you are.
Paul Vi could have saved a lot of breath if he truly meant what you think he did. Surely it would be easier to just say “Protestants are going to hell unless they convert to the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church.” He used more words, because the point he is making is nuanced.
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