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wisdomseeker
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Hey dont get mad at me. i did not build the Church Jesus did. One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. i am only a messenger.
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Please state your source for this charge.
If this is true, I will join with you in condemning it. Proselytizing other Christians is wrong, regardless of direction. There are lots of people who are unchurched. Let’s all reach out to them. And encouraging the poor to give to the church in the way you state is nothing more than protestant indulgences.
Jon
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MrS
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I guess it should not be so strange, but the Catholics on this thread have some well founded reservations to the title of Christians as used today. And the non-Catholics of course all are happy to claim to be Christians.
If believe in Jesus the Christ as the Son of God, and having a desire to follow all His teachings is all that is required…then perhaps many Christians are actually Christians.
The problem arises though when a “Christian” denys some of the very things Christ taught…like the Real Presence, like baptism of water and the spirit, like divorce/re-marriage, etc.
Of course we hear the reason being that of their interpretation of what Scripture says, and their denial of the teaching authority of the Catholic Church…given to the Apostles along with the power to hand on that teaching.
Still looking for the verse that recinds that power.
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If believe in Jesus the Christ as the Son of God, and having a desire to follow all His teachings is all that is required…then perhaps many Christians are actually Christians.
The problem arises though when a “Christian” denys some of the very things Christ taught…like the Real Presence, like baptism of water and the spirit, like divorce/re-marriage, etc.
Of course we hear the reason being that of their interpretation of what Scripture says, and their denial of the teaching authority of the Catholic Church…given to the Apostles along with the power to hand on that teaching.
Still looking for the verse that recinds that power.
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catholiconce
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Oh I never meant to get mad and I am sorry that I did. I am Glad you Mentioned
“one Holy Catholic apostolic Church” As Lutherans we recite the
nicene creed as well as the apsotles creed. The nicene Creed says “We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church” We proclaim to be catholic just not catholics or Roman Catholics. Catholic in the above creed is used to mean universal. Then as from some of my other posts the use of Roman upsets some Roman Catholic because they think I mean only Italians. But then if we get into the use of the word Catholic among Post and pre Vatican II groups the whole things gets all messed up. Again please forgive me
You speak of “protestants” not spreaking the truth. And, as you have been here for a while, you know that most protestants do not say confession is not needed. You know that many non-catholic churches know that the real presence is in the Eucharist. But then you state the opposite. You know we believe in confession and the real presence, then state that we don’t. But I will not accuse you of telling lies. I will say, in the heat of the argument, you forgot these truths and misspoke. You are a good Christian, my brother in Christ.
Blessings,
Jon
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MrS
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What they do not really understand, or refuse to acknowledge, or outright deny… is that the Real Presence in the Eucharist can only be found in the Eucharist confected by a valid ordination that leads back to the Apostles. No other faith community (often called a Church) has it outside the Catholic Church.
No other faith has the valid ordination in spite of their claims otherwise.
When Christ said (and when the Catholic Priest in his ordained capacity to consecrate) “…this IS…” He did not say or imply that “…this could be…” or that “…this is until the liturgy is over…” or that “… this is just symbolic…” etc etc.
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MrS
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But your Lutheran faith denys that “presence” after your liturgy.
My dear daughter-in-law is Lutheran too, although she calls herself Catholic-Lite. But I don’t know any Lutheran ministers (yet) who believe what you just said if you imply the permanence of “…this is…”
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MrS
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Perhaps a bit off center of the topic… but still on topic.
Q: How can one hope to be a true Christian, and follow all of Christ’s teachings… and then deny one or more of them??
A: Perhaps only with a self-interpretation of the Catholic Scriptures.
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catholiconce
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Yes JohNC He is Christ is Present in our Eucharist Thank You Christian brother
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wisdomseeker
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where did i lie? do you have priests ordained to do confession? do you have priests to consacrate the Eucharist? are you in the catholic church? i know you claim many things that can only be found withn the catholic church. i am not afraid to speak the truth. howelse anyone would know the truth if they are not told. i dont waterdown my faith or the One holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. it is up to you to make a choice. you are not catholic. we dont have the same believes and you are not under the authority of the CC.
I was very clear to say you did not lie. But you did say, “Catholic Church we need confession, they say we dont need confession. CC says we need a pope, protestants says we dont need authority. CC says the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of our Lord, protestants say not true.”
We say we need confession, and authority, and we say we need the Eucharist and that Christ’s body and blood are truly and substantially there. I know the Catholic Church teaches we don’t have it, but I respectfully disagree.
If I say, Wisdomseeker, that “Catholics worship Mary”, knowing full well Catholics do not, that would be a lie, a violation of the eighth commandment. I could say, “I don’t agree with Catholic veneration of Mary, for it appears to me to be worship”. That would be stating an opinion.
If you wish to say the Catholic Church does not recognize our Eucharist, or our orders, or our confession, fine. But you said that we don’t believe in these things. That is incorrect.
If you did not know that we believe these things, then certainly you did not lie.
BTW, did you find the source for your statement about mega churches in Brasil?
Jon
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MelanieAnne
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I am a former Episcopalian, now Catholic, who was once married to a Lutheran. As an Episcopalian, I was not welcome to receive Communion in the Lutheran Church. In contrast, the Episcopal Church was more open about Communion.
I am aware that at least some Lutheran churches accept the concept of Real Presence. But that concept is not that common within most Protestant denominations. Episcopalians deny the concept of Real Presence and say the Body and Blood of Christ are merely symbols. I haven’t done in depth research, but I suspect that the Episcopalian understanding of the Eucharist is more typical among Protestants, but there are obvious exceptions, such as the Lutherans.
I submit it would be wise to refrain from making accusations and using words like “lie” unless and until you have a thorough knowledge about the doctrines of all Protestant churches and are prepared to defend your statement.
I am aware that at least some Lutheran churches accept the concept of Real Presence. But that concept is not that common within most Protestant denominations. Episcopalians deny the concept of Real Presence and say the Body and Blood of Christ are merely symbols. I haven’t done in depth research, but I suspect that the Episcopalian understanding of the Eucharist is more typical among Protestants, but there are obvious exceptions, such as the Lutherans.
I submit it would be wise to refrain from making accusations and using words like “lie” unless and until you have a thorough knowledge about the doctrines of all Protestant churches and are prepared to defend your statement.
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roguejim
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“He who thinks he can remain a Christian by his own efforts, deserting the institutional bonds of the visible hierarchical Church, is deceiving himself. The fact remains that God established His Church as a bridge over which we must pass, leading from our unhappy lot to His salvation.”
POPE PAUL VI
"Jesus and the Church are indissoluble, inseparable. Christ and the Church are the same thing. It is not possible to say “I accept Jesus, but I do not accept the Church.”
POPE JOHN PAUL I
“He who falls away from the doctrine and faith of the Catholic Church would not be, nor would even be called, a Christian.”
ST ATHANASIUS
“All true Christians are members of the Church.”
ST JOHN EUDES
Now I can hear the interminable squalling of the liberal neo-Catholics, “Context! Context! What is the context of these quotes?” And to them I answer, “What is the context of 2+2=4?”
POPE PAUL VI
"Jesus and the Church are indissoluble, inseparable. Christ and the Church are the same thing. It is not possible to say “I accept Jesus, but I do not accept the Church.”
POPE JOHN PAUL I
“He who falls away from the doctrine and faith of the Catholic Church would not be, nor would even be called, a Christian.”
ST ATHANASIUS
“All true Christians are members of the Church.”
ST JOHN EUDES
Now I can hear the interminable squalling of the liberal neo-Catholics, “Context! Context! What is the context of these quotes?” And to them I answer, “What is the context of 2+2=4?”
All good Christian men with whom, on this point, I respectfully disagree. I could quote reformation founders who state similar condemnations of the Catholic Church, but what of it? What good would it do for you or me, or Christianity world-wide today.
Instead, I look to CC writings like this,
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCCUECU.HTM
in hopes of we can foster closer Christian unity, unity already begun in our Baptisms.
Jon
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wisdomseeker
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there is one thing you dont seem to grasp “AUTHORITY” Jesus being in authority He left a Church, ONE CHURCH. this Church He uses as means for Judgement, it is the keeper of the faith, otherwise anyone could claim whatever they want for themselves and noone to judge. if He gave everyone authority than we would have one big mess because who could judge the other who was to say. therefore you cant say if CC has such authority so do I, no you cannot. It was stablished by Christ through the Apostles and noone cant snatch her from God’s hand. martin luther leaving the catholic does not mean that the CC dissapeared, he was not the only catholic in the church at least i dont believe so. when he left, the church still remained intact with other millions of faithul. i could not imagine to classify martin luther being of much importance in the CC. martin lurther was not the catholic church he was just one member of her like all of us. if a priest leaves, the catholic church will go on until the end of times according to the Lord’s promise.
I know that the CC believes this. I suspect that of the things that divide us, this will be the most difficult to overcome.
How does this, though, relate to the posts I made here that I’ve addressed to you (#22, 33, 34)?
Blessings,
Jon
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