Are protestants still Christians?

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I know that the CC believes this. I suspect that of the things that divide us, this will be the most difficult to overcome.
How does this, though, relate to the posts I made here that I’ve addressed to you (#22, 33, 34)?

Blessings,
Jon
it is not what we believe. it is what it is. it is written in the Sacred Scriptures about the Church that Jesus Himself said He was going to build and He did. this Church is everywhere for everyone to see it. “this Church rules from one city and reigns into all nations.”

you cannot see how this relates to your posts?
 
it is not what we believe. it is what it is. it is written in the Sacred Scriptures about the Church that Jesus Himself said He was going to build and He did. this Church is everywhere for everyone to see it. “this Church rules from one city and reigns into all nations.”

you cannot see how this relates to your posts?
No, my brother in Christ, I don’t. Here are 2 of them. Please help me to understand how what you said above relates to these.
people are very confused but since we know who we are and the easy it is for us the better it is many will take the lie before the Truth. they are very successfull with the young generation. and that is why we are in such a mess right now in our religious believes. as long as we have this opposition it is difficult for catholics to stay true to their faith or even know where the truth is. It is a terrible burden for CC ./QUOTE]

One more thing, Wisdomseeker. I strongly disagree with this. One of the things I envy about the Catholic Church is its strength (scripture and traditions), and the strength of faith of its members. You sell yourself (The Catholic Church) short.

Jon

I was very clear to say you did not lie. But you did say, “Catholic Church we need confession, they say we dont need confession. CC says we need a pope, protestants says we dont need authority. CC says the Eucharist is the true Body and Blood of our Lord, protestants say not true.”

We say we need confession, and authority, and we say we need the Eucharist and that Christ’s body and blood are truly and substantially there. I know the Catholic Church teaches we don’t have it, but I respectfully disagree.

If I say, Wisdomseeker, that “Catholics worship Mary”, knowing full well Catholics do not, that would be a lie, a violation of the eighth commandment. I could say, “I don’t agree with Catholic veneration of Mary, for it appears to me to be worship”. That would be stating an opinion.
If you wish to say the Catholic Church does not recognize our Eucharist, or our orders, or our confession, fine. But you said that we don’t believe in these things. That is incorrect.
If you did not know that we believe these things, then certainly you did not lie.
BTW, did you find the source for your statement about mega churches in Brasil?
Jon
 
For one, let me say that I am glad that the conversation here has not gotten out of hand too much. This topic is an easy one to off the deep end.

I want to point out to everyone that the world is much bigger then just the Catholics and the guys who got started in northern Europe. My list is not exhaustive of course and I would like to remind everyone that there are a lot of people in the world that are not Christians. They are not Christians for a reason. In this I am speaking about names. If you take the Hindus who believe in Jesus for instance. They believe that Jesus was an avatar of one of their gods. They don’t follow any of Jesus’ teachings but do honor him. Are they Christians? Well we would all answer no. But what if God gave them grace? Are they Christians then? The answer is still no. What is God is pleased with something that they did, so pleased that he will let one of them into heaven when they die? The answer is still NO.

The word Christian is a word that needs to be guarded and protected. Not everyone who wants to just be called a Christian really is one. Some guy in China may want to be called an American, but if he does not meet the minimum basic standard for that title, then he just isn’t an American.

The title of Christian is a great honor, one that should not be taken lightly. This tread is not to start hateful arguements but to get us thinking and talking. There is a little blue church down the street from my home where there is a King James Bible that is worshiped. They liturally worhip the bible, the bound paper. If you ask them what they are doing, they will tell you that they are worshipping the WORD of GOD. If you ask them what is the word of God, they will point to the book. The book is in English. No one here can speak, much less read English. They have never heard of Jesus or know anything about Him, AT ALL. Are these peope worthy of the title of Christian? I say no.

We all need to understand that there by logical deduction are a finite number of Christians in this world. We can not all be Christians. A muslim is not a Christian no matter how much he learns or talks about Jesus. An Athiest is not a Christian. Oh, but these are the easy cases. They do not want to be called Christians. How about the guy that believes that Jesus was just a myth made up by Paul? Is he a Christian? He may want to be a Christian but he just isn’t.

I saw mentioned here that protestants are not protesting anything. Let me for just a moment remind everyone of just how the protestants got their name. There was an act of religious tolerance passed by a government in Germany that would have made it legal for anyone to practice either protestantism or Catholicism freely. The protestants protested this legislation because they did not want to recind their laws in their local areas that called for the killing of Catholics. Yes, the actual cutting of of heads should a Catholic be found among them.

Why do I bring this up? I bring this up because there is a lot of history, and all of this stuff that happens is going to be remember and that there are consequenses for our actions. Words mean things, and actions have reactions. For my part, I question very seriously the ‘Christianhood’ of most protestants. I recognize that it is possible for a protestant to be basically a Christian but how far does that really go?

Catholics need to take things that protestants say and do with a grain of salt. We should not be overly suspicious, especially considering that they aren’t cutting our heads off anymore except in South Korea, but at the same time we need to understand that there are a lot of really basic differences between us that put a lot of protestants outside of the Christian group.

The line does exist. On one side, you are a Christian and on the other you are NOT. Now, suppose there is someone who believes as he should in Jesus and all that is true about Him, and makes an active decision to seek forgiveness for their sins and to live a moral life from then on. If such a person just can’t understand the need for the Church and the Mass or the other sacrements but at least makes the effort to believe correctly and live correclty (seek forgiveness and live a moral life) then I would call such a person a Christian. They don’t have to have all the answers, just the basics is enough. By living a moral life, such a person would never support legislation that called for the killing of people over religion. He would never slander or libel someone of another religion. Sure, he would probably want to share his faith in Jesus but would be humble enough to admit that he was not the all knowing expert. He certainly would be humble enough to recognize that others were Christians before him and that he should by no means condemn them for not practicing exactly as he does.

Suppose there is a Catholic who goes to Mass, does all that the Church says he should do but never has the conversion experiance in his heart. This is very rare if it ever happens at all but let me just say, such a one is not a Christian. He may look like a Christian and sound like a Christian to everyone but inside he just isn’t.
 
Now, let me point out again, that I am not just trying to kick people out of Christianity. I want all to be Christians. However, objective reality exist and it is very clear that not all are Christians. There is a miminum basic standard that must be meet and kept to remain a Christian. We all certianly would never call an apostate a Christain.

Again, let me point out that even a non Christain can be a good person and even possible go to Heaven. A lot of people want to be called Christians because they have been told by protestant theology that they just CAN"T go to heaven unles they are called a Christian, or that (again becuase of protestant theology) they are a bad and evil person plotting to kill everyone unless they become a Christian. Protestants have equated the word itself with personal self worth. Some of them have said that you are just not good enough a person unless you are a Christian. This creates a kind of discrimination but also a false Christianity. People need the title but don’t want to take all that the title demands of them. They don’t want to stop the way they want to live or accept the suffering that Christ ask us to bear. It is like a guy that needs to get his U.S. citizenship to keep his job. To him it is just paperwork. He doesn’t really want to be an American or be loyal or any of that. He only wants that passport with the eagle on it. If we treat the word Christain in this way, we do dishonor to it.

Take for instance the muslim who has three wives. Christian teaching is that you can only have one wife at a time. That is the Christian way. It is impossible for this guy to become a Christian and keep all his wives. If he did so it would be a contradiction and that would dishonor the title and honor of Christian. Suppose there was an American Indian who becomes a Christian but continues to worship other gods on the side. Outside Christianity people do any number of things that are perhaps ok for society in general but are not acceptable for Christians to do. Take homosexuality for instance. Regardless of sexual urges, if you become a Christian, that just is not something that you can continue to engage in. But again, where do we draw the line?

We have to take the title of Christian more seriously. If we love the Lord Jesus and want to honor him and worship him and accept all that he desires the we accept, then we are bound by His words to take the title of Christian very seriously indeed. This should not be done with Ciceronian speeches and what not but with respect. We should show human dignity and respect to those who aren’t Christians while at the same time asking for them to respect us. Such a path shows the loving message and the life of holiness that Christians are called to live and teach to others. How can we teach it if we don’t live it?
 
We have to take the title of Christian more seriously. If we love the Lord Jesus and want to honor him and worship him and accept all that he desires the we accept, then we are bound by His words to take the title of Christian very seriously indeed. This should not be done with Ciceronian speeches and what not but with respect. We should show human dignity and respect to those who aren’t Christians while at the same time asking for them to respect us. Such a path shows the loving message and the life of holiness that Christians are called to live and teach to others. How can we teach it if we don’t live it?
Claudius,
Overlooking the very broad brush painting of “protestants” in your first few paragraphs, I generally agree with the last.

Just some comments:
  1. By your own definition of the history of the term “protestant”, it is outdated, though I’m not particularly offended by it, just like most Catholics are not particularly offended by “Roman Catholic”.
  2. In your mention of vicious acts by some protestants against Catholics in the 1500’s, you neglected to mention the equally vicious acts by some Catholics against protestants in that same time period. My point: we should all grieve that our ancestors would do such things to each other, and dare claim it was in the name of Christ! We must also realize that the events of 500 years ago cannot interfere in our current attempts at ecumenism.
  3. None of us, Catholic or protestant, are granted the power by God to read the hearts of those that claim to be Christian. That said, we are often told how wrong it is that we will not accept the authority of the Roman Bishop. Here is one instance where I do:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

According to this Vatican document, protestants are, for the most part, Christians. In fact, we are brothers and sisters in Christ, Catholics and protestants. To those few Catholics who doubt our Christianity, this is what your Church says. To those protestants who doubt the Christianity of my Catholic brother and sisters in Christ, I encourage you to prayerfully reconsider this indefensible position.

Blessings,
Jon
 
According to this Vatican document, protestants are, for the most part, Christians. In fact, we are brothers and sisters in Christ, Catholics and protestants. To those few Catholics who doubt our Christianity, this is what your Church says. To those protestants who doubt the Christianity of my Catholic brother and sisters in Christ, I encourage you to prayerfully reconsider this indefensible position.

Blessings,
Jon
There is much to be commended in your post. Even if we have theological differences, which we must take seriously, that is no reason for either a Catholic or a protestant to engage in violence or legal coersion. The majority of protestants that I have personally met in my life have been of the type that preached that all Catholics are going to hell and called for the assassination of the Pope. The physical acts committed against me that are still visible on my skin have been very hard for me to forgive and it certainly is something that I struggle with. Sometimes the emotion within me just becomes so angry at them who did these things to me that I can hardly contain myself. It is difficult to forgive when someone has done such a deep wrong thing to you. What makes it even harder is when they denounce my forgiveness when I do offer it and tell me that I am the one going to hell and who will be judged. It is really difficult for forgive them when they tell me that it is my fault they did these things to me because I became a Catholic. I really hope you can understand my serious questioning of such a group of people within the title of Christian. They represent the word protestant to me.

Perhaps these things have left me very bitter to the protestants. I don’t have many possitive examples to counter weigh the bad ones. I take religion very seriously and I just can’t let a lot of what some protestants pass. Perhaps people will say that I have become overly combative but just once I would like to have a conversation with protestant where they did not bash the Catholic Church, our faith or our Pope. Yes, Catholics do believe that the Pope is the guy that hold the unity of the Church because he holds the keys given to him by Jesus. Yet, if protestants were able to simply say that they did not agree with the need to be under the Pope without bashing the every existance of the Pope then perhaps we could get along much better.

At the same time, I am very worried about many of these protestant splinter groups who claim to be Christians but clearly, theologically are not. It seems like new ones are coming into existance everyday. We even have Scientology using the Christian Cross as their symbol now. I do not mean for our faith to be stagnant but a fair bit of conservatism is just automatically called for. All Christians, Catholics together with the protestants who are still Christians, should stand up to such groups and let them know that they just can’t usurp the word Christian and demand the others accept them as such. You can just decide that it means whatever you want it to mean. There is an objective reality and words have a finite meaning. I make no statement on if Tom Cruise or Thomas Monson are good people or bad people, or on if they will go to heaven or not but one fact is clear as day, they are not Christians no matter how much they want to be called as such. Christian is not a word to be wishy washy about. And again, this is not about just wanting to kick people out, but stating what the clear standards are for inclusion in the title of Christian so that people who really do want to be Christians can feel certain that they are Christains an not just being called Christians when they really aren’t.

From the way I see it, there is a lot of room for protestants to be more conservative and start to reduce the number of denominations and that is going to have to come about by preechers not just going along with any old crazy theology that someone comes up with. Protestants need to provide a Check on one another to keep one another from going too far, and this is to be done to increase holiness (which we are all called to) and for the sake of souls who wish to follow the Christian way to the one true God.

One thing I will say, and this is even coming from someone who went to maybe 20 or 30 different protestant churches before becoming Catholic and knowing just how different each one was from the others, as a Catholic I do see protestants as group. I do lump almost all protestants together in my mind. I would also suspect that most Catholics also do this. This is something that Catholics certainly have room to improve on but the facts are still there, the bad behavior of one group of protestant tarnishes the reputation of other protestants as well. Maybe this isn’t entirely fair but I bet it happens a lot.

One final note off topic a little, let us all pray for the success of the Pope’s visit to the United States. There have been threats of violence and assassination by militant muslims as well as some fundamentalist evangelicals. (The evengelicals I saw on youtube were praying for God to strike the Pople dead, but if you believe in the power of prayer then this has to scare you). Seriously though, if something happens to the Pope while he is visiting America it means big trouble for everyone. Catholics will of course be sorrowful for the Pope but then it will likely turn to anger towards America. Anti-American nuts will use it as amunition and the world will likely see it as the complete opposite of 9/11. If there was ever a time to have some gun control measures in place, a papal visit to the U.S. at this point in time is it. May God bless and protect all the people of the world, especially our Christain leaders.
 
There is much to be commended in your post. Even if we have theological differences, which we must take seriously, that is no reason for either a Catholic or a protestant to engage in violence or legal coersion. The majority of protestants that I have personally met in my life have been of the type that preached that all Catholics are going to hell and called for the assassination of the Pope. The physical acts committed against me that are still visible on my skin have been very hard for me to forgive and it certainly is something that I struggle with. Sometimes the emotion within me just becomes so angry at them who did these things to me that I can hardly contain myself. It is difficult to forgive when someone has done such a deep wrong thing to you. What makes it even harder is when they denounce my forgiveness when I do offer it and tell me that I am the one going to hell and who will be judged. It is really difficult for forgive them when they tell me that it is my fault they did these things to me because I became a Catholic. I really hope you can understand my serious questioning of such a group of people within the title of Christian. They represent the word protestant to me.

Perhaps these things have left me very bitter to the protestants. I don’t have many possitive examples to counter weigh the bad ones. I take religion very seriously and I just can’t let a lot of what some protestants pass. Perhaps people will say that I have become overly combative but just once I would like to have a conversation with protestant where they did not bash the Catholic Church, our faith or our Pope. Yes, Catholics do believe that the Pope is the guy that hold the unity of the Church because he holds the keys given to him by Jesus. Yet, if protestants were able to simply say that they did not agree with the need to be under the Pope without bashing the every existance of the Pope then perhaps we could get along much better.

At the same time, I am very worried about many of these protestant splinter groups who claim to be Christians but clearly, theologically are not. It seems like new ones are coming into existance everyday. We even have Scientology using the Christian Cross as their symbol now. I do not mean for our faith to be stagnant but a fair bit of conservatism is just automatically called for. All Christians, Catholics together with the protestants who are still Christians, should stand up to such groups and let them know that they just can’t usurp the word Christian and demand the others accept them as such. You can just decide that it means whatever you want it to mean. There is an objective reality and words have a finite meaning.



One thing I will say, and this is even coming from someone who went to maybe 20 or 30 different protestant churches before becoming Catholic and knowing just how different each one was from the others, as a Catholic I do see protestants as group. I do lump almost all protestants together in my mind. I would also suspect that most Catholics also do this. This is something that Catholics certainly have room to improve on but the facts are still there, the bad behavior of one group of protestant tarnishes the reputation of other protestants as well. Maybe this isn’t entirely fair but I bet it happens a lot.

One final note off topic a little, let us all pray for the success of the Pope’s visit to the United States. There have been threats of violence and assassination by militant muslims as well as some fundamentalist evangelicals. (The evengelicals I saw on youtube were praying for God to strike the Pople dead, but if you believe in the power of prayer then this has to scare you). Seriously though, if something happens to the Pope while he is visiting America it means big trouble for everyone. Catholics will of course be sorrowful for the Pope but then it will likely turn to anger towards America. Anti-American nuts will use it as amunition and the world will likely see it as the complete opposite of 9/11. If there was ever a time to have some gun control measures in place, a papal visit to the U.S. at this point in time is it. May God bless and protect all the people of the world, especially our Christain leaders.
It pains me deeply, not as a Lutheran, but as a Christian, that you have suffered these kinds of things at the hands of people who claim to be Christian. This is not what Christ’s message is.

As for people praying that God strike the Pope dead, God does not answer in a positive way these kinds of evil prayers. These are prayers to Satan himself, made by clearly evil people. What is more, I view the Pope as the most visible leader of Christianity, and a great representative to the world. May God protect and defend him.

With the help of the Holy Spirit, I hope that my response to you will give you just a small ray of light that not all protestants are the way you have described and witnessed, that you will feel my outstretched hand of Christian friendship and love.

Jon
 
There is much to be commended in your post. Even if we have theological differences, which we must take seriously, that is no reason for either a Catholic or a protestant to engage in violence or legal coersion. The majority of protestants that I have personally met in my life have been of the type that preached that all Catholics are going to hell and called for the assassination of the Pope. The physical acts committed against me that are still visible on my skin have been very hard for me to forgive and it certainly is something that I struggle with. Sometimes the emotion within me just becomes so angry at them who did these things to me that I can hardly contain myself. It is difficult to forgive when someone has done such a deep wrong thing to you. What makes it even harder is when they denounce my forgiveness when I do offer it and tell me that I am the one going to hell and who will be judged. It is really difficult for forgive them when they tell me that it is my fault they did these things to me because I became a Catholic. I really hope you can understand my serious questioning of such a group of people within the title of Christian. They represent the word protestant to me.

Perhaps these things have left me very bitter to the protestants. I don’t have many possitive examples to counter weigh the bad ones. I take religion very seriously and I just can’t let a lot of what some protestants pass. Perhaps people will say that I have become overly combative but just once I would like to have a conversation with protestant where they did not bash the Catholic Church, our faith or our Pope. Yes, Catholics do believe that the Pope is the guy that hold the unity of the Church because he holds the keys given to him by Jesus. Yet, if protestants were able to simply say that they did not agree with the need to be under the Pope without bashing the every existance of the Pope then perhaps we could get along much better.

At the same time, I am very worried about many of these protestant splinter groups who claim to be Christians but clearly, theologically are not. It seems like new ones are coming into existance everyday. We even have Scientology using the Christian Cross as their symbol now. I do not mean for our faith to be stagnant but a fair bit of conservatism is just automatically called for. All Christians, Catholics together with the protestants who are still Christians, should stand up to such groups and let them know that they just can’t usurp the word Christian and demand the others accept them as such. You can just decide that it means whatever you want it to mean. There is an objective reality and words have a finite meaning. I make no statement on if Tom Cruise or Thomas Monson are good people or bad people, or on if they will go to heaven or not but one fact is clear as day, they are not Christians no matter how much they want to be called as such. Christian is not a word to be wishy washy about. And again, this is not about just wanting to kick people out, but stating what the clear standards are for inclusion in the title of Christian so that people who really do want to be Christians can feel certain that they are Christains an not just being called Christians when they really aren’t.

From the way I see it, there is a lot of room for protestants to be more conservative and start to reduce the number of denominations and that is going to have to come about by preechers not just going along with any old crazy theology that someone comes up with. Protestants need to provide a Check on one another to keep one another from going too far, and this is to be done to increase holiness (which we are all called to) and for the sake of souls who wish to follow the Christian way to the one true God.

One thing I will say, and this is even coming from someone who went to maybe 20 or 30 different protestant churches before becoming Catholic and knowing just how different each one was from the others, as a Catholic I do see protestants as group. I do lump almost all protestants together in my mind. I would also suspect that most Catholics also do this. This is something that Catholics certainly have room to improve on but the facts are still there, the bad behavior of one group of protestant tarnishes the reputation of other protestants as well. Maybe this isn’t entirely fair but I bet it happens a lot.

One final note off topic a little, let us all pray for the success of the Pope’s visit to the United States. There have been threats of violence and assassination by militant muslims as well as some fundamentalist evangelicals. (The evengelicals I saw on youtube were praying for God to strike the Pople dead, but if you believe in the power of prayer then this has to scare you). Seriously though, if something happens to the Pope while he is visiting America it means big trouble for everyone. Catholics will of course be sorrowful for the Pope but then it will likely turn to anger towards America. Anti-American nuts will use it as amunition and the world will likely see it as the complete opposite of 9/11. If there was ever a time to have some gun control measures in place, a papal visit to the U.S. at this point in time is it. May God bless and protect all the people of the world, especially our Christain leaders.
I am sorry as well that you have seen, heard, and endured that sort of behavior. I hope, as you have not, that others will use those examples to lump all protestants into the category that the afformentioned belong in.
 
Well, I’m glad that I’m a Christian by the check list you set up, lol. Yes, a few of us Protestants (eck, dislike the word) follow Christ, and don’t claim Catholics are hellbound. I’m even married to a Catholic, and she’s OK! lol. Pax.👍
 
I appreciate your kind words. In hindsight, I kind of feel bad for bringing it up, not just because it is a conversation stopper but also because I do not what it to seem as if I am blaming other protestants for the actions of the others. Yet at the same time, I hope everyone sees a little of my point of view on this. When I hear preechers in huge arena churches denouncing all Catholics to hell I can not help but imagine it causes young men listening to act out at Catholics. I am very glad that these things do not happen on a regular basis, if even at all in the United States but other countries do not have the same level of rule of law. I see very real consequences at the end of the words people say.

For as much heat as Pope Benedict takes for being the enforcer, I think that we all have to admit that he might be one of the best friends protestants have in the vatican. He is an intellectual who has always called for people to hear each other out and respectfully consider the other persons opinion. This does not mean that he will agree with them but he shows that we can coexist in peace. He even states famously that Violence in contrary to Gods nature.

Now, theological differences are serious. They are not trivial and they need to be discussed between us in openess. At the same time, we are all called to help each other on the road to holiness.

Publications like Jack Chick and what not are not helping people on the read to holiness and are instead very divisive and make people come to the conclusion that there is no hope. If I thought that all protestants, 100%, thought like Jack Chick I really would consider writting all protestants off.

We all, including Catholics, need to drop the attitute of wanting to win in the convestions battle and instead focus on what our real goal should be and that is helping each other get into heaven. One cardinal stated just recently that the Pope perhaps sees the shrinking of the Catholic Church in some areas as good if it means that people are not just Catholic in name but truly Faithful to Lord Jesus.

We need to take these things seriously. I accept the offer of the your condolances to me and in return ask that we can join hands show that to be a Christian means to truly be faithful. As a Catholic, if I go and start to point out where some protestants have gone too far they will just see a Catholic mouthing off to them again. If we can come together on at least the most important issues so that even protestants hold fast to what is essential then we will be moving a huge step into the correct direction.
 
Claudius,
What a great post! Let me just comment on a couple of things you said.
When I hear preechers in huge arena churches denouncing all Catholics to hell I can not help but imagine it causes young men listening to act out at Catholics
Just these pronouncments are violence against Catholics, and are not in the spirit of Christ. When we are told to judge not so that we are not judged, this is exactly what we are warned against.
For as much heat as Pope Benedict takes for being the enforcer, I think that we all have to admit that he might be one of the best friends protestants have in the vatican. He is an intellectual who has always called for people to hear each other out and respectfully consider the other person`s opinion. This does not mean that he will agree with them but he shows that we can coexist in peace.
I hope you are right about Pope Benedict, as John Paul certainly was open to us. But I think in our near future we will need to do more than just peacefully coexist. With the comments of Islamic extremists overseas and anti-Christian secular extremists here at home, we better learn to stand together for our religious freedom, even as we differ in doctrine. As a noncatholic, I am angered by things such as the recent comments by Bill Maher. I can only imagine how Catholics feel.
Now, theological differences are serious. They are not trivial and they need to be discussed between us in openess. At the same time, we are all called to help each other on the road to holiness.
We all, including Catholics, need to drop the attitute of wanting to win in the convestions battle and instead focus on what our real goal should be and that is helping each other get into heaven. One cardinal stated just recently that the Pope perhaps sees the shrinking of the Catholic Church in some areas as good if it means that people are not just Catholic in name but truly Faithful to Lord Jesus.
Amen.
As a Catholic, if I go and start to point out where some protestants have gone too far they will just see a Catholic mouthing off to them again. If we can come together on at least the most important issues so that even protestants hold fast to what is essential then we will be moving a huge step into the correct direction.
Yeah, I know. Sometimes when I chastise protestants for unkind comments here, it comes off better than when Catholics do. And same thing in reverse. We really need to defend each other from incharitable remarks. I think, for many noncatholics, we do agree with the Catholic Chruch on the most important issues. Let’s build on that!
I accept the offer of the your condolances to me and in return ask that we can join hands show that to be a Christian means to truly be faithful.
Consider it done.

Blessings,
Jon
 
I want to ask the question because there has been a lot of development in protestant circles and we as Christians need to be clear about what we believe when we deal with protestants.

Please note, I am not posting here just to be able to say that protestants are by definition not Christian or that calling a protestants NonChristians is in anyway an attack because you can be a good person and perhaps even still go to heaven and not be a Christian.

Having looked at what the Catholic Church teaches about protestants, clearly I would never be one but when I deal with protestants a lot of issues come up that need to be addressed. I do not believe and indeed the Catholic Church does not teach that if someone is a protestant they are automatically a Christian or automatically a non Christian.

The Catholic Church teaches that we can call protestants serparated brothers in that we have a common baptism. However, I have meet many protestants who were never baptized because they do not believe in baptism and call it a dead work invented by man that is not in the bible. I disagree with this of course and we can easily prove them wrong using the bible but are they Christians. The mentality of a lot of people I dicuss this with is that if they are a protestant, they may not be a Catholic but at least they are a Christian. However, the Catholic Church says otherwise. Until you are baptized, you are not a Christian.

This started me thinking about what the minimum standard should be for accepting the Christianity of protestants. Clearly from Church teachings, those that are not baptized are not Christains because the word Christian has a deeper meaning then just wanting to follow Christ.

I will list here a few things that Catholic teachings and the bible have shown me to exclude some (not all) protestants from the title and honor of he word Christian.

If any protestant does not get baptized then they are not a Christian.
If any protestantd denys the divinity of Jesus, then they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that there is more then one God, they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that baptism is not a sacrement but only a symbol, they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that Catholics are not Christians, then they are not a Christian. I figure this by the fact that if you say that Catholics are not Christians but get baptized, you are getting baptized into something other then Christianity because your definition of Christianity is something different then what it should be.
If a protestant denys that Jesus died on the Cross, they are not a Chrsitian.
If a protestant denys the virgin birth, they are not a Christian.
If a protestant claims that the Catholic Church is the whore of babylon, then they are not a Christian.
If a protestant denys that Jesus is the Rock then they are not a Christian.
If a protestant says that they only need to believe that Jesus is God but do not have to live by his teachings, then they are not a Christian.

Now, I don’t imagine that many will object to some of the things that I mentioned but for others I may get a lot of objections. I state what I have stated and asked the question “are protestants still Christians” because we should all be taking this issue very seriously and not just accepting them to keep the peace. There is a reason that protestants can not take communion but Coptics, Syriacs, and Byzantines can.

Again, I did not post this to simple say that protestants are automatically not Christians or to denounce them as bad people. We need to know among ourselves how far the protestants can go before we take th title and honor of being a Christian away from them. I have heard some protestants proclaim theology that would make them no different from muslims, but they want the label of Christian. Are we bound to let them have the title and honor of being a Christian if they do not meet the minimum standard for it? What is the minimum standard anyway so that we can recongnize our true fellow Christians with whom we can come together an pray and who is not a Christian and in fact are giving a bad name to true Christians?

We need to take this seriously. It is not an attack to discover is certain protestants are true Christians or not, it actually shows a great amount of respect for them from us because we could just lump them all together with the muslims and mormons and be done with them. We don’t need to expend the energy and only do so out of love and respect for their position.

So, Are protestants still Christians?
What is the minimum standard that we are aware of for a someone to be a Christian?
I know you don’t mean this as an attack, but wait - so did God ask you to make this list? Who are you or anyone else for that matter to say only these certain persons are Christians. Christians are all who belive Christ is the son of God - weather they are a good or bad person. Period. It is God that judges who are christians and saved - not man.
 
Meanwhile back at the ranch…
All who have been validly baptized (removal of original sin and all) and believe in Christ are Christian.
CCC
**"838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist.“324” **
Now whether you consider them (living their faith) as good or bad Christians…well that is a whole different thread.
 
I know you don’t mean this as an attack, but wait - so did God ask you to make this list? Who are you or anyone else for that matter to say only these certain persons are Christians. Christians are all who belive Christ is the son of God - weather they are a good or bad person. Period. It is God that judges who are christians and saved - not man.
This, to me, is a bit broad. Satan himself “believes” that Christ is the son of God. That certainly doesn’t make him Christian.

As for the list, it wasn’t the OP’s intention to provide an infallible or even definitive list on who is or is not a Christian. It seems to me it was for conversation purposes.

Jon
 
Jon, no offense, but I don’t think people would read my post and think that I am saying Satan is a Christian. What I am saying is that if you believe in God (and want to go to Heaven or want God’s forgiveness as Christians do), then you are a Chrisitan.

It may be for conversation purposes, but it does kind of attack some people’s beliefs - basically what it is listing is things Catholics believe, which some protestants don’t agree on, and saying if they don’t agree, they aren’t Christians - only God or the person can say if they are Christian or not - it’s not for someone to say that I am not a Christian because I dont’ believe I am drinking real blood on Sunday.
 
Jon, no offense, but I don’t think people would read my post and think that I am saying Satan is a Christian. What I am saying is that if you believe in God (and want to go to Heaven or want God’s forgiveness as Christians do), then you are a Chrisitan.

It may be for conversation purposes, but it does kind of attack some people’s beliefs - basically what it is listing is things Catholics believe, which some protestants don’t agree on, and saying if they don’t agree, they aren’t Christians - only God or the person can say if they are Christian or not - it’s not for someone to say that I am not a Christian because I dont’ believe I am drinking real blood on Sunday.
No offense taken. I’m noncatholic and didn’t feel attacked, though no doubt some may have. Broadly speaking, Christianity, to me, entails certain basic beliefs; Trinitarian, Virgin birth, physical ressurection, to name a few. I do not deny anyone to *claim *being Christian, however.
 
If any protestant does not get baptized then they are not a Christian
If they think they don’t need to be baptised they are in error.
If any protestantd denys the divinity of Jesus, then they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that there is more then one God, they are not a Christian.
Correct.
If any protestant claims that baptism is not a sacrement but only a symbol, they are not a Christian.
Unless they havn’t got the RC understanding of it. A problem here is what the word sacrement means to Roman Catholics does not necessarilly mean the same to all Protestants.
If any protestantd denys the divinity of Jesus, then they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that there is more then one God, they are not a Christian.
Correct.
If a protestant denys that Jesus died on the Cross, they are not a Chrsitian.
If a protestant denys the virgin birth, they are not a Christian.
Correct.
If any protestantd denys the divinity of Jesus, then they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that there is more then one God, they are not a Christian.
Correct.
If a protestant claims that the Catholic Church is the whore of babylon, then they are not a Christian.
Unless they are stuck in the 16th century.
If a protestant denys that Jesus is the Rock then they are not a Christian.
They wouldn’t be Protestant either.

Jesus is the Rock and not Peter. 😛
If a protestant says that they only need to believe that Jesus is God but do not have to live by his teachings, then they are not a Christian.
Correct.
 
They wouldn’t be Protestant either.

Jesus is the Rock and not Peter. 😛
Catholics have always believed that Lord Jesus, blessed be His Name, is the Rock. The fullfill the prophecy from Daniel. We also believe that Jesus, who equated Himself with God the Father by being called Rock (the same as God the Father in the Psalms) gave Hisown name to Simon. Jesus always has been and will always remain the Rock. One difference between Catholics and protestants (besides the huge difference over the Eucharist) is that Catholics believe that the Pope exersises the authority given to his office by Jesus. The Pope acts in the name of Jesus since it is in Jesus’s Name that only that the Pope holds any authority at all. Jesus gave Simon his own name and only used a “WE” pronoun with Himself and Simon. Now, Simon is not another part of the Trinity, nor is the Pope. They are human being but they hold authority in the name of Christ since they have Jesus’s name as a title. This was established by Jesus but the Pope, and it is anything but the Pope just wanting Power. By rejecting Peter as the Rock, you aren’t really rejecting Peter or the Catholic Church, you are rejecting Christ.
 
I want to ask the question because there has been a lot of development in protestant circles and we as Christians need to be clear about what we believe when we deal with protestants.

Please note, I am not posting here just to be able to say that protestants are by definition not Christian or that calling a protestants NonChristians is in anyway an attack because you can be a good person and perhaps even still go to heaven and not be a Christian.

Having looked at what the Catholic Church teaches about protestants, clearly I would never be one but when I deal with protestants a lot of issues come up that need to be addressed. I do not believe and indeed the Catholic Church does not teach that if someone is a protestant they are automatically a Christian or automatically a non Christian.

The Catholic Church teaches that we can call protestants serparated brothers in that we have a common baptism. However, I have meet many protestants who were never baptized because they do not believe in baptism and call it a dead work invented by man that is not in the bible. I disagree with this of course and we can easily prove them wrong using the bible but are they Christians. The mentality of a lot of people I dicuss this with is that if they are a protestant, they may not be a Catholic but at least they are a Christian. However, the Catholic Church says otherwise. Until you are baptized, you are not a Christian.

This started me thinking about what the minimum standard should be for accepting the Christianity of protestants. Clearly from Church teachings, those that are not baptized are not Christains because the word Christian has a deeper meaning then just wanting to follow Christ.

I will list here a few things that Catholic teachings and the bible have shown me to exclude some (not all) protestants from the title and honor of he word Christian.

If any protestant does not get baptized then they are not a Christian.
If any protestantd denys the divinity of Jesus, then they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that there is more then one God, they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that baptism is not a sacrement but only a symbol, they are not a Christian.
If any protestant claims that Catholics are not Christians, then they are not a Christian. I figure this by the fact that if you say that Catholics are not Christians but get baptized, you are getting baptized into something other then Christianity because your definition of Christianity is something different then what it should be.
If a protestant denys that Jesus died on the Cross, they are not a Chrsitian.
If a protestant denys the virgin birth, they are not a Christian.
If a protestant claims that the Catholic Church is the whore of babylon, then they are not a Christian.
If a protestant denys that Jesus is the Rock then they are not a Christian.
If a protestant says that they only need to believe that Jesus is God but do not have to live by his teachings, then they are not a Christian.

Now, I don’t imagine that many will object to some of the things that I mentioned but for others I may get a lot of objections. I state what I have stated and asked the question “are protestants still Christians” because we should all be taking this issue very seriously and not just accepting them to keep the peace. There is a reason that protestants can not take communion but Coptics, Syriacs, and Byzantines can.

Again, I did not post this to simple say that protestants are automatically not Christians or to denounce them as bad people. We need to know among ourselves how far the protestants can go before we take th title and honor of being a Christian away from them. I have heard some protestants proclaim theology that would make them no different from muslims, but they want the label of Christian. Are we bound to let them have the title and honor of being a Christian if they do not meet the minimum standard for it? What is the minimum standard anyway so that we can recongnize our true fellow Christians with whom we can come together an pray and who is not a Christian and in fact are giving a bad name to true Christians?

We need to take this seriously. It is not an attack to discover is certain protestants are true Christians or not, it actually shows a great amount of respect for them from us because we could just lump them all together with the muslims and mormons and be done with them. We don’t need to expend the energy and only do so out of love and respect for their position.

So, Are protestants still Christians?
What is the minimum standard that we are aware of for a someone to be a Christian?
I am a Christian but certainly not Roman Catholic anymore. I don’t believe it is necessary or warranted for Catholics to go around defining to other denominations what it is to be a Christian.
 
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