Are Roman Catholics too senstive?

[AshleyBelle]

At least you are posting in a nicer way. I will hold fast to the once for all sacrifice, instead of calling Jesus down from the right hand of God to the Catholic and Orthdox altars at the call of priests. On a side note do you see the elements of the bread and wine changed before your very eyes to the acutal flesh and blood of Jesus Christ? Do the remains after the change rot like ordinary elements of bread and wine?

First, please be careful… For Catholics this is our LORD you are talking about I know you’re asking sincere questions, and accusing us of being “over sensitive” but if anything stirs up a defensive passion in me, it is terminology like “does it ROT” when referring to the real presence of Jesus!

The understanding is that Jesus is truly, actually present in the bread and wine. When we partake of the elements we are partaking of His body and blood under the appearance of bread and wine.

If the host is defiled in any way then I believe the teaching is that our Lord leaves the elements. This would include (heaven forbid) Jesus being left in the monstrance or tabernacle for too long without being consumed.

I’m sure somebody will correct me if I’m misinformed.

That being said…this is a great matter of faith. Just as we can never fully understand the mystery of the trinity, or our great omnipotent Father, creator of the universe, becoming a tiny baby in Mary’s womb at the incarnation. You can never explain with our finite human understanding, the great infinite and unfathomable mysteries of God.

Somebody else quoted Augustine earlier with something along the lines of how Belief must come before understanding.

 

[underdog]

First, please be careful… For Catholics this is our LORD you are talking about I know you’re asking sincere questions, and accusing us of being “over sensitive” but if anything stirs up a defensive passion in me, it is terminology like “does it ROT” when referring to the real presence of Jesus!

The understanding is that Jesus is truly, actually present in the bread and wine. When we partake of the elements we are partaking of His body and blood under the appearance of bread and wine.

If the host is defiled in any way then I believe the teaching is that our Lord leaves the elements. This would include (heaven forbid) Jesus being left in the monstrance or tabernacle for too long without being consumed.

I’m sure somebody will correct me if I’m misinformed.

That being said…this is a great matter of faith. Just as we can never fully understand the mystery of the trinity, or our great omnipotent Father, creator of the universe, becoming a tiny baby in Mary’s womb at the incarnation. You can never explain with our finite human understanding, the great infinite and unfathomable mysteries of God.

Somebody else quoted Augustine earlier with something along the lines of how Belief must come before understanding.

You have to admit, non-Catholic Christians wonder why the elements do not change from bread and wine to actual flesh and blood before our very eyes, and the elements decay after the apparent change of the elements. Is the Roman Catholic Eucharist view the driving force of the claim of “Fullness of Truth”? I think the word rot is quite mild as compared to what non-Catholic Christians have written about the Roman Catholic view of the Eucharist. I wonder what Martin Luther wrote about the Roman Catholic view since we have a dear Lutheran brother who has posted.

 

[AshleyBelle]

You have to admit, non-Catholic Christians wonder why the elements do not change from bread and wine to actual flesh and bood before our very eyes, and the elements decay after the apparent change of the elements. Is the Roman Catholic Eucharist view the driving force of the claim of “Fullness of Truth”?

The Eucharist is part of the Sacramental life of the Church…Living the Word of God; the Word made flesh

The fullness of the truth is found in Jesus; The Truth and the Light. The Catholic Church is the “pillar and Bulwark” of the truth… Not “just” the Eucharist…not “just” the Bible… not “just tradition” but all that Christ came to reveal!

And it's human nature to ask "well why can't we see the elements turned into flesh before our eyes?" We want to SEE proof!  If all matters of faith required absolutely proof, then what is your faith really in? God, or your own understanding and capacities to fathom His mysteries?

Faith must precede understanding… And the same is true of the Bible. If you don’t have faith that it is God’s Word, then you can never begin to understand its mysteries.

 

[underdog]

The Eucharist is part of the Sacramental life of the Church…Living the Word of God; the Word made flesh

The fullness of the truth is found in Jesus; The Truth and the Light. The Catholic Church is the “pillar and Bulwark” of the truth… Not “just” the Eucharist…not “just” the Bible… not “just tradition” but all that Christ came to reveal!

And it's human nature to ask "well why can't we see the elements turned into flesh before our eyes?" We want to SEE proof!  If all matters of faith required absolutely proof, then what is your faith really in? God, or your own understanding and capacities to fathom His mysteries?

Faith must precede understanding… And the same is true of the Bible. If you don’t have faith that it is God’s Word, then you can never begin to understand its mysteries.

It seems you are preaching and proclaiming the Roman Catholic Church as compared to the living person of Jesus Christ. I think non-Catholic Christians have a much higher view of the Scriptures than Roman Catholic Christians, don’t you?

 

[AshleyBelle]

It seems you are preaching and proclaiming the Roman Catholic Church as compared to the living person of Jesus Christ.

You’ve already started that thread, underdog… But this is something else you keep coming back to. You’re struggling with the Eucharist (because I believe Jesus is speaking to you!), and you’re struggling with His Church.

He and His church are one, just as the bride and bridegroom are one…why you constantly seek to separate and divorce them is for you to understand in your own heart.

 

[VARC]

Catholics pretty much only act aggressive on CAF. The anonymity of the Internet must contribute to it.

:yup:

 

[RobHom]

I can respect Martin Luther’s view of the Eucharist. As I mentioned, there are various views of non-Catholic Christians. Martin Luther did not believe in the Roman Catholic view. Do you wish to explain the similarities and differences between Lutherans and Catholics on the Eucharist?

I don’t think you understand Martin Luther’s view of the Eucharist. Here is a statement of fact:

From here: davidmacd.com/catholic/eucharist.htm

Martin Luther, the founder of the reform believed in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. In 1529, he engaged the question of transubstantiation in the famous conference at Marburg with Zwingli and other Swiss theologians; he maintained his view that Christ is present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist.

Perhaps it would be best of you stuck to things you now a little about?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Underdog,

I’ve posted in sincerity that I believe Jesus is calling you to full communion with Him through the Eucharist.

Rather than address any of the scriptural or historical evidence, or even to honestly discuss the matter, you’ve resorted to changing the subject once again. Your fall back is most always “It seems you are proclaiming the Roman Catholic Church and not Jesus Christ…” After which others here try to help you understand we believe Christ and His church are one.

I am more than happy to discuss Christ’s real presence or any other teaching of the Church you would like to know about… But I cannot stay here and run in circles to keep up with your accusations and re-direction of any sincere dialogue.

I will keep you in my prayers, and I hope you will search in your own heart just what it is that is causing you to be so restless.

“My heart is restless until it rests in You.” This is you, underdog…and my prayer is that Jesus will give you the peace and understanding your heart desires.

Merry Christmas!

 

[underdog]

You’ve already started that thread, underdog… But this is something else you keep coming back to. You’re struggling with the Eucharist (because I believe Jesus is speaking to you!), and you’re struggling with His Church.

He and His church are one, just as the bride and bridegroom are one…why you constantly seek to separate and divorce them is for you to understand in your own heart.

Hi Ashley,

I’m not struggling with the Roman Cathoic view of the Eucharist. I believe God speaks to me through His Spirit primarily through the Scriptures. I think you are mistaken to think Jesus is speaking to me through you in regards to your view of the conversion of the elements. Don’t take things so personal.

 

[underdog]

I don’t think you understand Martin Luther’s view of the Eucharist. Here is a statement of fact:

From here: davidmacd.com/catholic/eucharist.htm

Martin Luther, the founder of the reform believed in the real presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. In 1529, he engaged the question of transubstantiation in the famous conference at Marburg with Zwingli and other Swiss theologians; he maintained his view that Christ is present in the bread and wine of the Eucharist.

Perhaps it would be best of you stuck to things you now a little about?

Oh… I understand Luther’s view on the Eucharist and his debate with Zwingli. Are you trying to imply that Luther believed like you do as a Roman Catholic Christian?

 

[RubyT]

You’ve already started that thread, underdog… But this is something else you keep coming back to. You’re struggling with the Eucharist (because I believe Jesus is speaking to you!), and you’re struggling with His Church.

He and His church are one, just as the bride and bridegroom are one…why you constantly seek to separate and divorce them is for you to understand in your own heart.

Originally Posted by Underdog, It is through faith that we come to the Father through Christ, and not through the Eucharist.

I agree with AshleyBelle. What do these Bible quotes say to you Underdog? I am puzzled as to why you refute these quotes when you clearly believe in Christ and the Word of God.

Luke 24:30-31,35 - Jesus is known only in the breaking of bread. Luke is emphasizing that we only receive the fullness of Jesus by celebrating the Eucharistic feast of His body and blood, which is only offered in its fullness by the Catholic Church.

Acts 2:42 - from the Church’s inception, apostolic tradition included celebrating the Eucharist (the “breaking of the bread”) to fulfill Jesus’ command “do this in remembrance of me.”

Luke 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - Jesus commands the apostles to “do this,” that is, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice, in remembrance of Him.

God Bless you my friend.
Rubyt

 

[underdog]

Underdog,

I’ve posted in sincerity that I believe Jesus is calling you to full communion with Him through the Eucharist.

Rather than address any of the scriptural or historical evidence, or even to honestly discuss the matter, you’ve resorted to changing the subject once again. Your fall back is most always “It seems you are proclaiming the Roman Catholic Church and not Jesus Christ…” After which others here try to help you understand we believe Christ and His church are one.

I am more than happy to discuss Christ’s real presence or any other teaching of the Church you would like to know about… But I cannot stay here and run in circles to keep up with your accusations and re-direction of any sincere dialogue.

I will keep you in my prayers, and I hope you will search in your own heart just what it is that is causing you to be so restless.

“My heart is restless until it rests in You.” This is you, underdog…and my prayer is that Jesus will give you the peace and understanding your heart desires.

Merry Christmas!

Ashley,

You are not God’s spokesman, even though you think He is speaking to you to me. God has spoken through His written Word. Please don’t get too emotional on me, maybe you are a Charismatic Catholic Christian and have a word of knowledge. The Eucharist can be the real thing for you, but I know otherwise.

 

[underdog]

I agree with AshleyBelle. What do these Bible quotes say to you Underdog? I am puzzled as to why you refute these quotes when you clearly believe in Christ and the Word of God.

Luke 24:30-31,35 - Jesus is known only in the breaking of bread. Luke is emphasizing that we only receive the fullness of Jesus by celebrating the Eucharistic feast of His body and blood, which is only offered in its fullness by the Catholic Church.

Acts 2:42 - from the Church’s inception, apostolic tradition included celebrating the Eucharist (the “breaking of the bread”) to fulfill Jesus’ command “do this in remembrance of me.”

Luke 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - Jesus commands the apostles to “do this,” that is, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice, in remembrance of Him.

God Bless you my friend.
Rubyt

I hope you know that there are many Christians who do not believe like you do in regards to the Lord’s Supper. Christendom is quite divided in regards to this issue. Let’s don’t it make it more of a division that it should be.

 

[da_nolo]

Sounds about like what happened to me, except I am a Baptist. I really just like something about Catholocism, I also like some things about Islam and Buddhism (one major thing is devotion).

discipline is a discipline

 

[RobHom]

I’ve seen the thread by the anti-Catholics. I don’t read them much.

You probably should…

There are insecure and immature as well.

That is an understatement…

What I also notice, over and over and over and over and over and over and over again and again is Catholics attacking other faiths.

I see your claim as being somewhat “hyperbolic” in nature. Granted that there are some denizens here who are somewhat vociferous…but few of us “attack” others faiths. Attacking others beliefs or faiths is not a part of our beliefs, training, or theology. Its not a facet of character we consider desirable.

Insults, misconceptions, dishonesty, and pathetic name-calling. It’s take me mere moments to find dozens of examples.

I’ve seen precious few items of the nature you are claiming. Perhaps you should take a few mere “moments” to find the dozens of examples and “share” them with us.

Frankly… I have gone on other sites…that are not in the least bit “Christian” even though the people there claim to be. If a Catholic lets it be known the he or she is a Catholic the vitriolic attacks begin immediately, and believe me…there is absolutely nothing that has ever been said on this site that compares with what is said elsewhere. I am thankful for the caliber of moderators we have on this site!

Should doubt my veracity as to my claims…PM me, and I will gladly PM you back some sites that will put a new twist on your outlook…

Also, when viewing the responses of Catholics, take into consideration that its quite possible that even Job would tire of the constant, pedantic, and repetitively redundant posting of the same questions ad nauseum by the same individual, even after the questions have been fully answered. Trust me on this… our responses…even at their worst, are better and more Christian that those I have seen on non-Catholic “Christian” sites directed at Catholics.

Peace!

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

It seems some Roman Catholics are over-sensitive and very aggressive when discussing Christianity with non-Catholic Christians. Truth belongs to God and not a particular Christian community. What do you think?

Only when you need to tell a non-Catholic about a gazillion times, the same thing and they STILL don’t get it, yes, you get extremely frustrated even if it is right in front of them. They refuse to acknowledge anything Catholic.
On the other hnad, there are many apologetics here and everywhere with the utter most patience you can ask for.

 

[RobHom]

I hope you know that there are many Christians who do not believe like you do in regards to the Lord’s Supper. Christendom is quite divided in regards to this issue. Let’s don’t it make it more of a division that it should be.

Might you not consider your own advice…? Based on some of your prior comments regarding the issue it seems that your agenda includes fomenting unrest over that very point. Just my :twocents:

How can there be “dispute or contention” over this issue, Christ spoke very clearly, and His Word is paramount:

From here: drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=53&ch=11&l=25&f=s#x

**24 And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.

26 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come. 27 Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. 30 Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep. **

That’s not too tricky to understand now, is it?

 

[RubyT]

I hope you know that there are many Christians who do not believe like you do in regards to the Lord’s Supper. Christendom is quite divided in regards to this issue. Let’s don’t it make it more of a division that it should be.

I believe in the word of God, the Bible. In the Bible Jesus himself says “do this in remembrance of me”. If you disagee with me about the Eucharist than you are the one deviating from scripture and thus the word of God. There is no debate.

As you responded with your view of Christendom with a clear retort (see above quote) I ask are Non-Catholic Christians too sensitive?

I pray for you everyday Underdog that you may see the Truth, The Way and The Light. Bless you my friend.

 

[JonNC]

Oh… I understand Luther’s view on the Eucharist and his debate with Zwingli. Are you trying to imply that Luther believed like you do as a Roman Catholic Christian?

I think it would be safe to say that, other than the sacrifice of the mass, which was and, I believe to a lesser extent, still is a point of discussion, Luther and the early Lutherans considered the matter of Transub. to be something not of huge importance. So, yes, in large though not complete measure, he did.

“Before I drink mere wine with the Swiss I shall drink blood with the pope”;

Luther

Jon

 

[underdog]

I believe in the word of God, the Bible. In the Bible Jesus himself says “do this in remembrance of me”. If you disagee with me about the Eucharist than you are the one deviating from scripture and thus the word of God. There is no debate.

As you responded with your view of Christendom with a clear retort (see above quote) I ask are Non-Catholic Christians too sensitive?

I pray for you everyday Underdog that you may see the Truth, The Way and The Light. Bless you my friend.

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. Here’s what He said 2,000 years ago.

John 14:6

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Jesus also said that He is the light of the world too.

John 8:12

Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”