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rpp
Guest
I am sorry. I do not understand this post. I think there are some missing words and punctuation. Can you clrify or correct, please? 
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Baraq
Guest
My definition of tradition isnt the subject of the thread . As a Sr Member, you can set a good example & stay on topic. You can do so by answering the original poster with scripture that would confirm what WE in the Reformed Church call RCC tradition.
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nkelly
Guest
This is a news to me! I thought the Blessed Virgin Mary is the only creature in Heaven who is higher than the angels.
God bless,
Noel.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Not quite…How are they any less valid than your case that has been made?
Sounds like you have your own interpretative tradition. What makes yours right and the one I have offered wrong? Your opinion?
Hardly authoritative to anyone but you…
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rpp
Guest
You made a statement that I honestly did not understand. I politely asked for a clarification and you made this rude response. That was not needed. If you wish to make cryptic comments then refuse to explain them, that is your business, but there is no reason to be rude to someone who is trying to be polite.
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runandsew
Guest
It is not that we become like angels thus can offer prayers, my comment is just that we become like angels.
Matthew 22:29-30
But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
And in my post of revelation 5:8, it is showing that the elders (saints in heaven) are handing the bowls of incense which are the prayers of the saints (on earth) to God.
Your insight is good, that could be a reason why become like the angels.
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runandsew
Guest
Does you bible have Revelation 5:8?
“And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the** twenty-four elders ** (saints in heaven) fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with **golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; ** (the prayers of the saints on earth)”
Heaven is a spiritual place, they really do not have physical bowls in heaven, St. John wrote in a way that we could visualize what is happening in heaven. What St. John is writing here, is that in some way, shape or form, the Saints in heaven are presenting our prayers to God.
Yes,scripture does affirm it, you might ignore this passage, but I do know that it is in my bible.
Sacred Tradition is the infallible interpretation of Scripture, handed down from the Apostles. Now you might interpret this passage a different way, but your interpretation is not infallible, it could be wrong, and in this case it is.
Why would you assume that your interpretation is correct and the Catholic interpretation is wrong?
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MarkA16
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Oh that makes sense. But now, who are the 24 elders?
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rpp
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My my. Such an uncharitable and rude response to my honest and politely worded question. Well, at least it helps establish credibility and style of discourse.
I suggest that you read this link. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116150
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Baraq
Guest
I call our study notes ‘tradition,’ the Reformed tradition. What makes our traditions differ, is ours is based on Scripture alone. Our Sola scriptura position does not allow us to believe in the RCC mediation of prayers by other saints in heaven.
Clearly scripture teaches there is one mediator, and one mediator only between men and God.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
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rpp
Guest
I have seen a couple of different suggestions for whom they may be. I saw one place where someone claimed they were the first 24 bishops. Personally, I think that is silly.Oh that makes sense. But now, who are the 24 elders?
It seems more likely to me that they are the 12 patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Israel, and the 12 apostles (remember Matthias replaced Judas.) There seems some validity here connecting them because later in Revelation, in the description of the city of New Jerusalem, we see that the names of the 12 tribes of Israel appear over the gates and names of the 12 apostles on the 12 stones of the foundations.
But then, this is only some basic exegesis. I do not know if the Church has an official interpretation, but I doubt it. The Church usually avoids making firm interpretations unless there is controversy and the issues and faith or morals are caught in the mix.
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rpp
Guest
No one has said the saints are mediating to God on behalf of the living. The Church teaches they make making intercessory prayers for us. In concept, it is no different than asking a friend to pray for you. In practice, they are truly poure and righteous so their prayers have a great effect.
James 5:16 “Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” (KJV)
Also, Can you please explain this earlier post. I do not understand it. I think there may be some typos so I would appreciate clarification and how it relates to the topic of this thread.
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Baraq
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Is that your answer to the original question? bit shaky doncha think? 24 elders? Who opens the vials? Who are the elders? What is the relationship between Jesus opening the book and receiving the vials?
Earlier I posted a less obscure verse twice, maybe you should take a look at it
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
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GandalfTheWhite
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Hi Baraq!
May I ask you a question? Do you ever ask someone to pray for you? Perhaps your family or close friends? Is this contrary to the verse you present to us? Is this thread against God?
Whenever I assume the Sola Sriptura position I find myself unable to believe in the Protestant idea of Scripture alone.
In Christ,
~G
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rpp
Guest
Who do you think the elders are? In Holy Scriptures, angels are always indentified as “Angel”, “Archangel”, “Cherubim”, or “Serafin”. Their may be a few others that I have missed. “Elders” always refers to humans.
So who do you say they are?
And again, 1 Timothy 2:5 has nothing to do with who can pray or carry the prayers to God. It only deals with who mediates on behalf of sinners, not who can pray and who presents the prayers to God. Of course, remember, Christ Jesus is both Man and God. So presenting a prayer to Jesus **is **presenting a prayer to God.
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MarkA16
Guest
Since he mentioned 1 Tim 2:5 I might as well show the forum and what made me ask this question:
Thanks.
Yes It’s a bodybuilding forum. I’m a HS fb player you know,
My name is MarkA15 there and there are only like three Catholics and the rest Protestants and atheists. Well I talk about 1 Timothy 2:5 and other things here. Maybe you guys could read and get a better understanding on why I’m asking this question about Saints in Heaven, etc.
Thanks.
Yes It’s a bodybuilding forum. I’m a HS fb player you know,
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Baraq
Guest
In the Reformed Creed (Belgic Confession)
Article 26: The Intercession of Christ
We believe that we have no access to God except through the one and only Mediator and Intercessor: Jesus Christ the Righteous (1 John 2:1).
He therefore was made man, uniting together the divine and human natures, so that we human beings might have access to the divine Majesty. Otherwise we would have no access.
But this Mediator, whom the Father has appointed between himself and us, ought not terrify us by his greatness, so that we have to look for another one, according to our fancy. For neither in heaven nor among the creatures on earth is there anyone who loves us more than Jesus Christ does. Although he was “in the form of God,” he nevertheless “emptied himself,” taking the form of “a man” and “a servant” for us (Phil. 2:6-8); and he made himself “completely like his brothers” (Heb. 2:17).
Suppose we had to find another intercessor. Who would love us more than he who gave his life for us, even though “we were his enemies” (Rom. 5:10)? And suppose we had to find one who has prestige and power. Who has as much of these as he who is seated “at the right hand of the Father” (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 1:3), and who has all power “in heaven and on earth” (Matt. 28:18)? And who will be heard more readily than God’s own dearly beloved Son?
So then, sheer unbelief has led to the practice of dishonoring the saints, instead of honoring them. That was something the saints never did nor asked for, but which in keeping with their duty, as appears from their writings, they consistently refused.
We should not plead here that we are unworthy-- for it is not a question of offering our prayers on the basis of our own dignity but only on the basis of the excellence and dignity of Jesus Christ, whose righteousness is ours by faith.
Since the apostle for good reason wants us to get rid of this foolish fear-- or rather, this unbelief-- he says to us that Jesus Christ was “made like his brothers in all things,” that he might be a high priest who is merciful and faithful to purify the sins of the people (Heb. 2:17). For since he suffered, being tempted, he is also able to help those who are tempted (Heb. 2:18).
And further, to encourage us more to approach him he says, “Since we have a high priest, Jesus the Son of God, who has entered into heaven, we maintain our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to have compassion for our weaknesses, but one who was tempted in all things, just as we are, except for sin. Let us go then with confidence to the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy and find grace, in order to be helped” (Heb. 4:14-16).
The same apostle says that we “have liberty to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus. Let us go, then, in the assurance of faith…” (Heb. 10:19, 22).
Likewise, “Christ’s priesthood is forever. By this he is able to save completely those who draw near to God through him who always lives to intercede for them” (Heb. 7:24-25).
What more do we need? For Christ himself declares: “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to my Father but by me” (John 14:6). Why should we seek another intercessor?
Since it has pleased God to give us his Son as our Intercessor, let us not leave him for another-- or rather seek, without ever finding. For when God gave him to us he knew well that we were sinners.
Therefore, in following the command of Christ we call on the heavenly Father through Christ, our only Mediator, as we are taught by the Lord’s Prayer, being assured that we shall obtain all we ask of the Father in his name.
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