Are Saints Angels? Where please?

[rpp]

In the Reformed Creed (Belgic Confession)

Article 26: The Intercession of Christ
We believe that we have no access to God except through the one and only Mediator and Intercessor: Jesus Christ the Righteous (1 John 2:1).
{ - snip - }

The only reason I did not quote the whole thing is because it is very long. I did indeed read it. Thank you for providing it, it helps greatly to understand your position.

I do not mean this in any demeaning way, but it seems like such a lonely doctrine. No friends or family in Heaven. We are isolated from our friends on Earth when we pass away. We cannot pray for our friends and family after our death. Imagine how sad it must be for a mother not to be able to pray to God for her children when she is standing in front of God. Heaven must be a very disappointing place.

But then that is the reason this doctrine does not make logical sense. All authentic Christian doctrine makes logical sense when fitted together with all other doctrines, all revealed truth, all Scripture, as well as our best understanding of human nature. If one doctrine does not seem to fit with everything else, or lack logical consistency, then we must look at it again and make certain that our understanding is correct.

However, you did not answer either of my questions. Who do you think the 24 Elders are who are presenting prayers to God? And what did you mean in that earlier post?

 

[rpp]

Your post above has been deleted and this one has been edited due to the inclusion of links that might result in a board swarm.

In an effort to illuminate and explain the Catholic faith, CA makes every effort to provide our participants with a pleasant and informative place on the internet where Catholics and non-Catholics may gather.

It is our hope that respectful dialogue and discussion will lead to better faith understandings. And so in charity, we ask that our forums not be used for encouraging mass visits to other websites. In the past these kinds of efforts, although perhaps well intentioned, leave participants at other websites with negative impressions.

Your cooperation in helping promote these aims of faith exposition, hope for fruitful discussion and charity in implementation are sincerely appreciated.

Sincerely,
Michael Francis
Apologetics Moderator

You did an excellent job defending the faith there! Thank you! I am sure you have planted the seeds of faith in many. It may not come to fruition for many years, but you did it quite well. And you were quite respectful without letting yourself get walked all over. :tiphat:

 

[runandsew]

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

This passage is telling us that Jesus is the only one that can close the chasm of sin which was created with the sin of our first human parents.

Scripture tells us to pray for each other. We are not asking the saints to be our mediator between us and God, we are asking them to intercede on our behalf. We are asking them to pray to God (Jesus) for us, just like I would ask you to pray for me.
I don’t think that you are a mediator, but I am asking you to intercede for me to God.

 

[MarkA16]

You did an excellent job defending the faith there! Thank you! I am sure you have planted the seeds of faith in many. It may not come to fruition for many years, but you did it quite well. And you were quite respectful without letting yourself get walked all over. :tiphat:

Thanks!

 

[Church_Militant]

I call our study notes ‘tradition,’ the Reformed tradition. What makes our traditions differ, is ours is based on Scripture alone. Our Sola scriptura position does not allow us to believe in the RCC mediation of prayers by other saints in heaven.

Clearly scripture teaches there is one mediator, and one mediator only between men and God.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Yet there is more than ample scripture that supports the Communion of Saints, and since it is there in scripture, even someone who believes in the unscriptural doctrine of Sola Scriptura has to look objectively at the scriptures supplied and if the scriptures are there and say what we assert then who do you accept then? The Word of God? Or your “reformed” teachers and preachers?

As for you cited verse…what then is the purpose of intercessory prayer by believers? Is not prayer for someone’s salvation a minor mediation before God seeking His grace and mercy that they repent and turn to His Son?

I notice that you failed to offer the verse in its context.
1st Timothy 2:1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

intercession

Main Entry: in·ter·ces·sion
Pronunciation: "in-t&r-'se-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin intercession-, intercessio, from intercedere
1 : the act of interceding
2 : prayer, petition, or entreaty in favor of another and then.

Mediator defined

A mediator is one who brings estranged parties to an amicable agreement. In New Testament theology the term invariably implies that the estranged beings are God and man, and it is appropriated to Christ, the One Mediator. When special friends of God – angels, saints, holy men – plead our cause before God, they mediate “with Christ”; their mediation is only secondary and is better called intercession. Moses, however, is the proper mediator of the Old Testament (Galatians 3:19-20).

 

[Baraq]

The only reason I did not quote the whole thing is because it is very long. I did indeed read it. Thank you for providing it, it helps greatly to understand your position.

I do not mean this in any demeaning way, but it seems like such a lonely doctrine. No friends or family in Heaven. We are isolated from our friends on Earth when we pass away. We cannot pray for our friends and family after our death. Imagine how sad it must be for a mother not to be able to pray to God for her children when she is standing in front of God. Heaven must be a very disappointing place.

But then that is the reason this doctrine does not make logical sense. All authentic Christian doctrine makes logical sense when fitted together with all other doctrines, all revealed truth, all Scripture, as well as our best understanding of human nature. If one doctrine does not seem to fit with everything else, or lack logical consistency, then we must look at it again and make certain that our understanding is correct.

However, you did not answer either of my questions. Who do you think the 24 Elders are who are presenting prayers to God? And what did you mean in that earlier post?

You dont understand. Just because we dont pray to saints, doesnt mean we are excluded from the Communion of Saints. Far from it, we are rich in this love.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1 John 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

 

[rpp]

Yet there is more than ample scripture that supports the Communion of Saints, and since it is there in scripture, even someone who believes in the unscriptural doctrine of Sola Scriptura has to look objectively at the scriptures supplied and if the scriptures are there and say what we assert then who do you accept then? The Word of God? Or your “reformed” teachers and preachers?

As for you cited verse…what then is the purpose of intercessory prayer by believers? Is not prayer for someone’s salvation a minor mediation before God seeking His grace and mercy that they repent and turn to His Son?

I notice that you failed to offer the verse in its context.
1st Timothy 2:1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: and then.

:clapping:

Very good! Mediator and Intercessor are not the same task nor the same people!

 

[Michael_G]

Where does it say that Saints become like angels thus can offer prayers to God too?

Or is it the fact that when we get to heaven we automatically become like angels because we are part of the living family of God?

I think this will answer your question from a Bibical perspective.
Do not forget that Moses, and Elijah were with Jesus at the transfiguration, and Jesus quote that he is not the God of death but of the living refering to the saints in heaven are indeed more alive than us.

Angels and Saints See and Hear us

Luk 20:36
For they shall be equal unto angels (That is saints shall be equal unto angels)
Mat 22:30,
Saints in heaven shall be like Angelic Spirits
**

 

[fellowChristian]

That’s all, simple. Is everyone in heaven an angel? Where does it say that?

Lucifer is who he is. An angel is what he is.

Mary is who she is. A human is what she is.

Gabriel is who he is. An angel is what he is.

Joseph is who he is. A human is what he is.

Being human is our nature because our parents were created that way. Being angels is their nature because that is how they were created.

We are not of the same nature.

To be a Saint is the same thing as to being Holy.

The Father is who He is. God is** what **He is.

The Holy Spirit is who He is. God is what He is.

Jesus is **who **He is.God + Human is what He is. Jesus has two natures because of His parents.

Three persons with one nature.

The nine choirs of angels:
seraphim, cherubim, thrones, dominations or dominions, virtues, powers, principalities or princedoms, archangels, and angels.

 

[fellowChristian]

I think this will answer your question from a Bibical perspective.
Do not forget that Moses, and Elijah were with Jesus at the transfiguration, and Jesus quote that he is not the God of death but of the living refering to the saints in heaven are indeed more alive than us.

Angels and Saints See and Hear us

Luk 20:36
For they shall be equal unto angels (That is saints shall be equal unto angels)
Mat 22:30,
Saints in heaven shall **be **like ****Angelic Spirits
**

“Be like” and “be” have two different meanings.

They **shall be **angelic spirits vs. they shall **be like **angelic spirits.

Doesn’t mean they are the same.

 

[Church_Militant]

:clapping:

Very good! Mediator and Intercessor are not the same task nor the same people!

In your opinion, but not supported by God-given common sense, the definitions themselves, (since neither definition is mutually exclusive), nor by the Word of God, which you cherry picked your verse from and I had to show the actual context.

Furthermore, the notes of the Bible study that I mentioned offers a great deal of scripture and you have not addressed any of that. Below a short excerpts.

1. All Christians are connected through the Body of Christ; #953, 2 Cor 2:5, and 2 Cor 1:5
   B. Communion of Saints-Underlying Principles
   1. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ; Rom 12:4-5, 1 Cor 12:12-13
      a. Through baptism; Col 2:12; Rom 6:4,Gal 3:27
   2. Physical death does not separate us from the Body of Christ; Rom 8:38-39
   3. There is only one Body of Christ, in Heaven and on Earth; Eph 2:15-16; Eph 4:4
   4. The Church is the Body of Christ; Eph 1:22-23, Col 1:18,24
      C. Just as we can pray for one another, we can suffer for one another; Col 1:24

F. Biggest objection to Catholic teaching - 1 Tim 2:5; Jesus’ role as �sole mediator between God and man�
1. Catholics agree that Jesus is the �sole mediator between God and man�. Jesus is the only one who is true God and true man; only by Jesus’ blood are we saved; but, as members of Jesus’ Body, we can share in His role as mediator as He allows us to
2. Moses, Abraham, Job are examples of mediation and intercession between God and man; praying for one another here on earth is an example of mediating and interceding between God and man
3. 1 Tim 2:5 is being misinterpreted
4. Only one foundation, Jesus: 1 Cor 3:11. Yet, other foundations: Eph 2:19-20, Rev 21:14
5. Only one Lord, Jesus: Eph 4:4-5 Yet, other lords: Rev 19:16, 1 Ptr 3:6
6. Only one judge, Jesus: James 4:12, 2 Tim 4:1. Yet, other judges: 1 Cor 6:2, Lk 22:28-30
7. Only one Father, God: Mt 23:9 Yet, other fathers: Acts 7:2, Acts 22:1, 1 Cor 4:15

I doubt that you’ve even read the notes or bothered to listen the the study itself.

 

[Baraq]

In your opinion, but not supported by God-given common sense, the definitions themselves, (since neither definition is mutually exclusive), nor by the Word of God, which you cherry picked your verse from and I had to show the actual context.

Furthermore, the notes of the Bible study that I mentioned offers a great deal of scripture and you have not addressed any of that. Below a short excerpts.
I doubt that you’ve even read the notes or bothered to listen the the study itself.

Im not sure, but I think you just bashed your own cheerleader. If that lack of response(in ref to your study) was directed to me, I didnt answer because ITS SO CLEAR. Yes, I can pray to God through Jesus for other saints(in fact in 1 Timothy we see it as a duty), but I cant pray to saints to contact God. Scripture is CLEAR. We do not pray, worship and venerate any creature…Only our CREATOR. Look in scripture for examples, where do you see this practice excercised? That road is filled with danger, like when Saul try to appeal to the departed Samuel.

As for scripture references, even JWs have references. IMO- People naturally seek other gods in their sinful nature, they try one patron saint after another looking for help. When they find one they feel answers prayer, they keep praying to it. It Reminds me of the multi theistic religions many cultures had in centuries past. HOWEVER thats just an opinion of my own

 

[puzzleannie]

That’s all, simple. Is everyone in heaven an angel? Where does it say that?

no where. angels are created spirits, those who chose to remain in union with God praise Him eternally in heaven, even as they sometimes fullful their office of messenger of God to humans. Humans who die in a state of sanctifying grace go to heaven, after purification of the effects of any earthly sins, and are called saints. Saints is an English word derived from sanctus, the Latin for holy or sanctified, so it can apply to all humans in heaven, who have been sanctified through Christ’s sacrifice, to all in heaven, human and angelic, since their condition is that of the sanctified, that is, holy.

Angels are angels, humans are humans. Humans do not become angels after death. Angels will always remain pure spirits. Human souls will one day be reunited with their risen glorified bodies in heaven.

as usual, by the time I jump into a discussion it has moved light years away from OP, but that is what I am responding to.

 

[rpp]

In your opinion, but not supported by God-given common sense, the definitions themselves, (since neither definition is mutually exclusive), nor by the Word of God, which you cherry picked your verse from and I had to show the actual context.

Furthermore, the notes of the Bible study that I mentioned offers a great deal of scripture and you have not addressed any of that. Below a short excerpts.
I doubt that you’ve even read the notes or bothered to listen the the study itself.

I am pretty sure you hit “Quote” on the wrong Post.

 

[rpp]

Im not sure, but I think you just bashed your own cheerleader. If that lack of response(in ref to your study) was directed to me, I didnt answer because ITS SO CLEAR. Yes, I can pray to God through Jesus for other saints(in fact in 1 Timothy we see it as a duty), but I cant pray to saints to contact God. Scripture is CLEAR. We do not pray, worship and venerate any creature…Only our CREATOR. Look in scripture for examples, where do you see this practice excercised? That road is filled with danger, like when Saul try to appeal to the departed Samuel.

As for scripture references, even JWs have references. IMO- People naturally seek other gods in their sinful nature, they try one patron saint after another looking for help. When they find one they feel answers prayer, they keep praying to it. It Reminds me of the multi theistic religions many cultures had in centuries past. HOWEVER thats just an opinion of my own

The problem with your position which has been pointed out and you have not responded to, is that it does not make logical sense. You yourself say we must pray for saints. Why can’t saints pray for us?

Finally, if what you say is as clear as you claim why did it take 1600 years after the founding of the Church for someone to figure it out?

Also, praying to saints is not worship or idolatry, unless you consider asking one of your friends to pray for you is worshiping them or making them into an idol.

If you want to have an honest and reasoned discussion, please respond to the points raised. If you ignore what is said and just say the same things over and over, as you have done here, no one will listen to you.

 

[FCEGM]

. . .Suppose we had to find another intercessor. Who would love us more than he who gave his life for us, even though “we were his enemies” (Rom. 5:10)? And suppose we had to find one who has prestige and power. Who has as much of these as he who is seated “at the right hand of the Father” (Rom. 8:34; Heb. 1:3), and who has all power “in heaven and on earth” (Matt. 28:18)? And who will be heard more readily than God’s own dearly beloved Son?

So then, sheer unbelief has led to the practice of dishonoring the saints, instead of honoring them. . .

OTC, it’s precisely because Catholics (and Orthodox) believe fully in Christ’s power and authority that we know the true power of the Communion of Saints.

If the Saints in heaven have no power then Christ has no power and we have no power, for what power we have is HIS power in which we participate by virtue of our incorporation into His Body. In your scenario, those counted among the blessed will not be allowed, then, “to share my throne,” Rev. 4:21. Then, St. Stephen, “filled with grace and power” withstanding the Sanhedrin, was divested of that power upon his martyrdom; then St. Peter and St. Paul, who cured people of their spiritual blindness and physical illnesses by virtue of the power of the Lord, lost their power upon their martyrdoms.

If faith gave them (and us) the power to perform such prodigies, what more must sight give?! Further, we know from Scripture that the angels watch over man (including the Son of Man: Mt. 4:11; Lk. 22:43); therefore they are aware of man’s needs (not on their own power, of course, but by the power they are given by God). Since the angels are to be subject to us, why would the power of men and women in glory now be less than that of these angelic servants of God?

Those who have entered into the Beatific Vision are more powerful in their prayer than most still in this “valley of tears” because they are now fully transformed in Christ by His grace and thus pray fully according to His divine will. They are more human than we who still struggle with sin that defaces our humanity.

Indeed, yours is a very lonely “communion”.

 

[st_lucy]

In the Reformed Creed (Belgic Confession)

My only question is who gave the Reformed church the authority to REFORM the Creed?

And if you answer the Holy Spirit, than why would He allow His people to fall to error for 1600 years. Even after Jesus promised that He wont leave His people when He went to be with His Father?

 

[Church_Militant]

I am pretty sure you hit “Quote” on the wrong Post.

:doh2: :doh2: :doh2:

 

[rpp]

Im not sure, but I think you just bashed your own cheerleader. If that lack of response(in ref to your study) was directed to me, I didnt answer because ITS SO CLEAR. Yes, I can pray to God through Jesus for other saints(in fact in 1 Timothy we see it as a duty), but I cant pray to saints to contact God. Scripture is CLEAR. We do not pray, worship and venerate any creature…Only our CREATOR. Look in scripture for examples, where do you see this practice excercised? That road is filled with danger, like when Saul try to appeal to the departed Samuel.

As for scripture references, even JWs have references. IMO- People naturally seek other gods in their sinful nature, they try one patron saint after another looking for help. When they find one they feel answers prayer, they keep praying to it. It Reminds me of the multi theistic religions many cultures had in centuries past. HOWEVER thats just an opinion of my own

I feel compelled to respond to this again.

Rarley do we ever get the see such a honest and earnest example of “I have made up my mind, don’t confuse me with the facts.”

And then in the first sentence of the last paragraph, he declares that his own method of exegesis is invalid by critizing another group who, like his group, relies on personal Biblical interpretation, ignores certain scriptural passages and does not interpret the Bible in the full context.

What he appears to be saying here is that he and he alone can interpret Scripture because if we disagree with him, we are wrong and there is no possibility that the reverse could be true.

Finally he compares praying to saints with paganism. And if someone learns that praying to the saints is effective, he calls it a feeling.

There appears to be no desire to learn by the author. Nothing can really be gained until some humility is demonstrated by the author of this post. The first step would be to read the biblical passages cited my ChurchMilitant and others then respond to them. While I am hopeful he will do that, as we have with his material and scripture references, I am not optimistic.

 

[Baraq]

I feel compelled to respond to this again.

Rarley do we ever get the see such a honest and earnest example of “I have made up my mind, don’t confuse me with the facts.”

.

Not Really… I grew up Roman Catholic. In my adulthood I read the Bible cover to cover several times and found I was wrong. I then repented of the evil. We should no longer try to ask God to answer our will, but rather strive to conform to his.