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weepixie71
Guest
sometimes i wonder if it is not the mass so much as who we are.
most modernist catholics are not procreating enough to replace their parents. when a modernist catholics come up to me and tell me oh my gosh how many are you going to have? heck i only have 4. and no i have no intention of stopping! why should i? each one of the souls God entrusted to me is beautiful and they give me much more joy than a new car.
have you ever seen the families in traditional parishes. the average seems to be 6-8 children per family.
another is modernist divorce rate is much higher than traditionalists. fathers are the leaders of the family. studies show that children who see their father go to mass are more likely to go to mass as adults. and the father is around to pray everyday with the family.
from what ive read in the thread i have started on female altar girls, modernists can not get the boys to want to participate being altar boys and so will lack the graces for good future priests.
traditionalists will often have at least a dozen altar boys or so in the cities where it is permissible and creating so many seminarians that they are needing to add additions to the seminary schools.
i wonder if modernists, including the modernist bishops and priests, know this now that they are poking their heads in the doors of an EM with the moto proprio in effect.
modernists are good at doing the math. i cant but help but wonder that they are doing things to the OM to humor and recruit more protestants since the modernists are not making children for the future of the mass. especially since a lot of the younger generations attendance is so sporadic.i went to a novus ordo grade school and we had a class reunion. a lot of us got together and discussed politics and religion and most of them do not ever go anymore.
most modernist catholics are not procreating enough to replace their parents. when a modernist catholics come up to me and tell me oh my gosh how many are you going to have? heck i only have 4. and no i have no intention of stopping! why should i? each one of the souls God entrusted to me is beautiful and they give me much more joy than a new car.
have you ever seen the families in traditional parishes. the average seems to be 6-8 children per family.
another is modernist divorce rate is much higher than traditionalists. fathers are the leaders of the family. studies show that children who see their father go to mass are more likely to go to mass as adults. and the father is around to pray everyday with the family.
from what ive read in the thread i have started on female altar girls, modernists can not get the boys to want to participate being altar boys and so will lack the graces for good future priests.
traditionalists will often have at least a dozen altar boys or so in the cities where it is permissible and creating so many seminarians that they are needing to add additions to the seminary schools.
i wonder if modernists, including the modernist bishops and priests, know this now that they are poking their heads in the doors of an EM with the moto proprio in effect.
modernists are good at doing the math. i cant but help but wonder that they are doing things to the OM to humor and recruit more protestants since the modernists are not making children for the future of the mass. especially since a lot of the younger generations attendance is so sporadic.i went to a novus ordo grade school and we had a class reunion. a lot of us got together and discussed politics and religion and most of them do not ever go anymore.
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I_Believe
Guest
Welcome folks. :tiphat:
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Karenanna
Guest
I am not afraid of it. I simply don’t know much Latin. I go to both Latin and English Masses. They are both held in my parish.
Read my book:** Help from heaven (Answers to prayer)**, free online.
The book is in two parts at the following links:
Help from heaven (part one)
missionbell.homestead.com/HelpFromHeavenBook.html
Help from heaven (part two – final section)
missionbell.homestead.com/HelpFromHeavenBookPartTwo.html
Read my book:** Help from heaven (Answers to prayer)**, free online.
The book is in two parts at the following links:
Help from heaven (part one)
missionbell.homestead.com/HelpFromHeavenBook.html
Help from heaven (part two – final section)
missionbell.homestead.com/HelpFromHeavenBookPartTwo.html
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Candace_Alexis
Guest
Hurray !!! I second that !!! So many of us have to travel an hour or more to participate in the Latin mass. For priests, too, it is merely a matter of being familiar with the faith. They all ought to know some Latin. At least “pacce tecum” (I think that means peace be with you). I say the rosary in Latin. I love it.
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fcoffey
Guest
I believe that many people fear it because it means more work and focus for them. The modern conception is that religion should fit lifestyle and not vis versa. When people (and not all of them) are asked to put in a little more that their weekly hour and take part in something that is both intellectually and spiritually stimulating they are afraid. Who wants to do more than the bare minimum these days?
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Jerry-Jet
Guest
Is it illegal for TLM to be done in English?
Has it ever been done that way?
Has TLM ever been done in languages other than Latin?
Was the Sarum Rite ever done in English?
How close was it to TLM?
Has it ever been done that way?
Has TLM ever been done in languages other than Latin?
Was the Sarum Rite ever done in English?
How close was it to TLM?
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jwatza
Guest
I am jumping in here. I think it would be the people at the EF that would scare me more than anything. Much of what I read here on the forum is so critical, condemning and bitter sounding that I would have a hard time concentrating on what is happening. I would feel judged for not covering my head or not wearing a skirt…I love the Lord and the OF that I attend is reverent. What saddens me most is what seems to be a holier than thou attitude from people of both rites. I really wish there was only one way to celebrate the Mass and that it would be celebrated the same way everywhere. I think having the OF and EF has brought division among Catholics and has perpetuated uncharitable attitudes. I probably would really love the EF, but need to get past my own prejudices and hurt feelings brought about by those who are critical and condemning of the OF Mass.
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LexKnight
Guest
It’s not so much that I “fear” the Latin Mass, but rather that I just have very little desire to go out of my way to attend one. I mean, I understand the historical and cultural significance of it, so I will probably attend one at some point in my life, but maybe not any time soon.
I once spoke with a liturgist who expressed her preference for Mass in the vernacular because the Mass, contrary to what some people suggest, is supposed to be an inclusive sacrament. The language barrier inherently excludes people in at least one way, because Latin as a language is only spoken fluently by a handful of people in the whole world. I have heard many people say that the Latin Mass is inclusive on a worldwide scale because they can go anywhere and hear ‘the same prayers’ being said (which is odd enough in itself, as the prayers themselves are the same but in a different language), however it is only inclusive in the fact that it excludes (nearly) all people equally.
The fact that people do not speak Latin is not all that unreasonable; it is after all a dead language. I mean, sure, people can take classes and read a translation in the missal. But to really know Latin (the many words, the syntax, grammatical conventions, etc.) you would have to put in an exceptional (and some might say unreasonable) amount of effort just to understand the Mass. And although you can read a translation in a Missal, it’s the same as reading the subtitles on a kung-fu movie; you can know the meaning of what’s being said but you won’t actually understand the words as they are said (because to do that you would have to know Latin, as mentioned above).
I understand that in modern times the TLM can be quite a beautiful thing, but I also have heard stories from pre-Vatican II people who have offered a different view. To paraphrase one of them:
“Some people like to think of the pre-Vatican II Mass as some kind of glorious Gregorian Chant filled with a much greater level of mystery and reverence… But most of the time it was just an old guy mumbling in another language with his back to us.”
A few other pre-Vatican II people were also there when he said this and nodded in agreement. That said, they may have just had a lot of bad luck with priests and parishes; but I don’t know because I’m a few decades after Vatican II.
From this, I sometimes think that maybe it is the very fact that the TLM is less common in today’s world that those which do exist seem to be so engaging and beautiful? Possibly because there are less of them, those who wish to attend them put a greater deal of effort into the preparation and execution of the ceremonies? Again, I’m not sure. But in the same way that the Vernacular Mass is often done poorly, maybe it’s got to do with people taking common practices for granted; ie. because Mass in the Vernacular is what is common and known, people are more likely to become complacent when putting them together; thus resulting in poor or rather average liturgies. Maybe the same would happen to the Latin Mass if it was to become common practice?
That last paragraph is purely speculation on my part; but maybe some other people who experienced pre-Vatican II Masses would be willing to discuss their experiences?
I once spoke with a liturgist who expressed her preference for Mass in the vernacular because the Mass, contrary to what some people suggest, is supposed to be an inclusive sacrament. The language barrier inherently excludes people in at least one way, because Latin as a language is only spoken fluently by a handful of people in the whole world. I have heard many people say that the Latin Mass is inclusive on a worldwide scale because they can go anywhere and hear ‘the same prayers’ being said (which is odd enough in itself, as the prayers themselves are the same but in a different language), however it is only inclusive in the fact that it excludes (nearly) all people equally.
The fact that people do not speak Latin is not all that unreasonable; it is after all a dead language. I mean, sure, people can take classes and read a translation in the missal. But to really know Latin (the many words, the syntax, grammatical conventions, etc.) you would have to put in an exceptional (and some might say unreasonable) amount of effort just to understand the Mass. And although you can read a translation in a Missal, it’s the same as reading the subtitles on a kung-fu movie; you can know the meaning of what’s being said but you won’t actually understand the words as they are said (because to do that you would have to know Latin, as mentioned above).
I understand that in modern times the TLM can be quite a beautiful thing, but I also have heard stories from pre-Vatican II people who have offered a different view. To paraphrase one of them:
“Some people like to think of the pre-Vatican II Mass as some kind of glorious Gregorian Chant filled with a much greater level of mystery and reverence… But most of the time it was just an old guy mumbling in another language with his back to us.”
A few other pre-Vatican II people were also there when he said this and nodded in agreement. That said, they may have just had a lot of bad luck with priests and parishes; but I don’t know because I’m a few decades after Vatican II.
From this, I sometimes think that maybe it is the very fact that the TLM is less common in today’s world that those which do exist seem to be so engaging and beautiful? Possibly because there are less of them, those who wish to attend them put a greater deal of effort into the preparation and execution of the ceremonies? Again, I’m not sure. But in the same way that the Vernacular Mass is often done poorly, maybe it’s got to do with people taking common practices for granted; ie. because Mass in the Vernacular is what is common and known, people are more likely to become complacent when putting them together; thus resulting in poor or rather average liturgies. Maybe the same would happen to the Latin Mass if it was to become common practice?
That last paragraph is purely speculation on my part; but maybe some other people who experienced pre-Vatican II Masses would be willing to discuss their experiences?
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Lex Knight:
Your post deeply saddens me. As one who grew up with the Latin Mass, attended Catholic school; was preprared to make my First Communion; made my First Communion; was trained to be an altar boy; served as an altar boy till 1969; was prepared to make my Confirmation; and was confirmed in 1963 - I think I have the “been there, done that” award.
One of the things you younger folks miss in this equation is that you don’t have the “been there, done that” award. You have been fed “propaganda” by those of my generation and you ignore the plethora of testimonies from those of us who “walked the walk” and “talked the talk”.
I am so tired of having to respond to “we didn’t know what we were saying” or that we were “parroting”. I find it strange that those of you who say this will not accept the countless testimonies from people of my generation who consistently attest that we did know what we were saying.
Do you any of you realize how you denigrate me, marginalize me, and trivialize me and my contemporaries when you say we “didn’t know what was going on and we didn’t know what we were saying”?
Our Lord said "let your “yes” be “yes” and your “no”, “no”. As God is my judge, I proclaim and attest that I could not then nor can I now speak Latin. I proclaim and attest that I did understand and do understand what I was saying as an altar boy and what I said as a member of the congregation. I further attest that I can’t speak Spanish worth a durn after four years of Spanish. I further attest that I can read Spanish fluently and that I have passed the Graduate Student Foreign Language Test in Spanish as part of the requirements to get my Masters Degree.
I sound like an idiot trying to speak Spanish. This whole idea that we needed to speak Latin to understand Latin is simply bogus.
I am getting really tired of the condescension. I am a live human being who is not dead yet. I grew up a Catholic before Vatican II. It is extremely insulting to have someone tell me that I didn’t know what I was saying…My personal observation…I went to Catholic school from primer to 12th grade. In all that time, the only classmates of mine who objected to the Latin Mass, Gregorian Chant, etc. and who didn’t “understand” the Latin Mass were jocks for the most part. Go figure.
Your post deeply saddens me. As one who grew up with the Latin Mass, attended Catholic school; was preprared to make my First Communion; made my First Communion; was trained to be an altar boy; served as an altar boy till 1969; was prepared to make my Confirmation; and was confirmed in 1963 - I think I have the “been there, done that” award.
One of the things you younger folks miss in this equation is that you don’t have the “been there, done that” award. You have been fed “propaganda” by those of my generation and you ignore the plethora of testimonies from those of us who “walked the walk” and “talked the talk”.
I am so tired of having to respond to “we didn’t know what we were saying” or that we were “parroting”. I find it strange that those of you who say this will not accept the countless testimonies from people of my generation who consistently attest that we did know what we were saying.
Do you any of you realize how you denigrate me, marginalize me, and trivialize me and my contemporaries when you say we “didn’t know what was going on and we didn’t know what we were saying”?
Our Lord said "let your “yes” be “yes” and your “no”, “no”. As God is my judge, I proclaim and attest that I could not then nor can I now speak Latin. I proclaim and attest that I did understand and do understand what I was saying as an altar boy and what I said as a member of the congregation. I further attest that I can’t speak Spanish worth a durn after four years of Spanish. I further attest that I can read Spanish fluently and that I have passed the Graduate Student Foreign Language Test in Spanish as part of the requirements to get my Masters Degree.
I sound like an idiot trying to speak Spanish. This whole idea that we needed to speak Latin to understand Latin is simply bogus.
I am getting really tired of the condescension. I am a live human being who is not dead yet. I grew up a Catholic before Vatican II. It is extremely insulting to have someone tell me that I didn’t know what I was saying…My personal observation…I went to Catholic school from primer to 12th grade. In all that time, the only classmates of mine who objected to the Latin Mass, Gregorian Chant, etc. and who didn’t “understand” the Latin Mass were jocks for the most part. Go figure.
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ProVobis
Guest
I couldn’t agree with you more. It really is an insult to those of us who have taken painstaking and against-the-grain measures to preserve Latin in the liturgy per Vatican II. It is not that we have to understand every Latin word that is recited or written before we are able to pray and grasp the real deep meaning of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It’s very sad as you say that people use the “I don’t understand Latin” argument to stay away from the beautiful Latin liturgy.
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Gertabelle
Guest
brotherrolf, what on earth are you talking about?! LexKnight referred to a couple of people he/she had spoken with, and then wondered whether there might be differences of opinion from preV2 folks on the matter. As far as I can read, he/she never generalized that all preV2 felt that way, nor did he/she mention your name. Releasing your venom on LexKnight sniffs of egocentrism.
Back to the topic at hand, I am not afraid of the Latin mass, and with the Pope’s actions toward the SSPX this week, I may need to get used to the idea of changes that may be coming. So, following your example, I guess as soon as I’m done with my doctorate I will enroll in a four-year Latin program so I can pray the TLM instead of offering up having to endure constantly translating a foreign language into a language in which I can actually pray.
I don’t remember ever reading such a condemning post by you… If our Holy Father can extend the hand of reconciliation to the SSPX, perhaps we can put aside our own differences and just love and serve Christ in each moment. Here’s hoping…
Gertie
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palmas85
Guest
Whether you know it or not that is exactly what you do at each and every Mass you attend or have ever attended. Both Masses are written in Latin. **EVERY LAST SINGLE WORD IN THEM EXCEPT FOR THE KYRIE, **
All you are praying are the translations anyway. So whats the big deal?
And in Brotherolfs defense, he and I and several others have constantly posted on here of our experiences prior to Vatican II and no one seems to accept them as being truthful. We constantly hear the exact same detrimental things brought up over and over and over again. And when we point out that the reality was much different our statements are ignored completely in the majority of cases. It is frustrating to have to respond repeatedly to people who weren’t there telling us who were there what is was like.
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malphono
Guest
Remember my post back in the early days of this thread? In brief, there are those who will never be willing to understand the EF. Personally, I feel sorry for them.
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ASD
Guest
I think there’s truth in that. We don’t know what we’ve got 'til it’s gone.
I moved this to the top so I could start on a positive note.
That’s the conventional line these days. In fact, it’s the party line. It’s been asserted over and over again for 40 years, like a drum beat. And, it’s plausible enough, right? So, we’re all just supposed to accept it uncritically.
However, I’m skeptical. Personally, I wish I had some evidence. E.g., how about a poll or some other kind of empirical evidence showing that Catholics these days understand the Mass better than people did before Vatican II? (I won’t hold my breath.
)Although it’s kinda beside the point you’re making: I assume you’re aware, LexKnight, that the last time you participated at vernacular Mass, it was a (rather poor) translation?
Really? I’ll go explain that to my 4th grader, who does pretty durn well.
Given that you prefaced your remarks by saying that you’ve never been to TLM/EF, I guess I can see how you would imagine that. But, it’s not accurate.
I understand that in modern times the TLM can be quite a beautiful thing, but I also have heard stories from pre-Vatican II people who have offered a different view. To paraphrase one of them:
Maybe it was that way by 1950s. I don’t know for certain either, though I would love to read some research (you know, facts & numbers) about what Mass was really like.
In any event, as you pointed out, since the TLM/EF isn’t like that now, it’s pretty much irrelevant, right?
So it seems to boil down to this:
*]You’re very familiar with the conventional wisdom about how much better things are now, although you don’t have any evidence to bring forward.
*]You don’t know, but you’ve been told that TLM used to stink; just an old guy mumbling with his back to us.
*]However, you think the TLM/EF now is rather different.
*]Nevertheless, you’re certainly not going to exert yourself to learn a little elementary Latin, or otherwise give the EF a fair try.
Well. OK then.
BTW, since you’re concerned about being “inclusive,” I hope you’ll take brotherhrolf’s post to heart. Consider it sensitivity training.
ASD
Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar
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m134e5
Guest
Well said…
I would not want to go to Mass, and feel like others were watching me and waiting for me to make a mistake so they can either talk about me behind my back, or insult me to my face. That, among other- similar- reasons, is why I no longer go to the Tridentine Mass (even though I still love it- and prefer it…the liturgy itself anyway).
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Gertabelle
Guest
The big deal, and the big difference, is that the priest is saying the translation, not speaking in a foreign language which I then have to read a translation of in a missal. And in and English mass, I am allowed to speak and think in the same language at the same time. To me, this matters deeply. If that shows my deeply flawed, ignorant, irreverent nature, keep throwing the stones and maybe I’ll get the point and finally agree with you that Latin is THE way to go
Amazing how so many people can be so highly educated and still not agree on what God prefers. Come to think of it, that’s why I’m Catholic
Gertie
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maize
Guest
id love to go, but im afraid id get thrown out if i showed up in a tucked in dress shirt, khakis, and dress shoes.
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palmas85
Guest
Then what about me? . My native language isn’t English. So I suppose that I am unable to pray along because not only is the Priest reading in a foreign language to me then , I have to translate in my mind from English into my own language and then translate back into English to pray along.The big deal, and the big difference, is that the priest is saying the translation, not speaking in a foreign language which I then have to read a translation of in a missal. And in and English mass, I am allowed to speak and think in the same language at the same time. To me, this matters deeply. If that shows my deeply flawed, ignorant, irreverent nature, keep throwing the stones and maybe I’ll get the point and finally agree with you that Latin is THE way to go
Amazing how so many people can be so highly educated and still not agree on what God prefers. Come to think of it, that’s why I’m Catholic
Gertie
So I suppose that all things being equal , I am frozen out, right?
Since the Priest is speaking in a language not my own, I cannot actively participate in the worship/ At least that seems to be what you are saying…
There is a flaw in the kind of ethnocentric statement that you made. It may be fine for you, but what about everybody else for whom English isn’t their native language?. Is it equally fine for them or do they matter? Or maybe we shouldn’t be at YOUR Mass at all. Maybe we should try to find a Mass with our own kind. And to take it further, what if I can’t find a Mass in my own language? What do I do then?
You see that is what the use of Latin did. It put everyone on the same page so to speak.
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palmas85
Guest
Why?
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