Are Some People Afraid Of The Latin Mass?

[LilyM]

Well, one of these days we’ll get that research grant.

I claim they certainly would tell us the effect the Mass itself has on people. E.g., they would tell us whether the reforms driven by Sacrosanctum Concilium have succeeded on their own terms. E.g., did wider use of vernacular increase understanding?

This is how I understand it:

1. 
   *]Churchmen decided that Catholics didn’t appreciate or understand the Mass sufficiently.
   *]Therefore, in order to remedy that situation, they put in motion a reform program designed to have a cause and effect relationship.
   *]However, they didn’t remedy the situation. I claim Catholics today don’t appreciate or understand the Mass sufficiently.
   
   OK. And, to be fair, maybe I brought up question of how well TLM/EF Catholics understand the Mass. But, that doesn’t actually bear directly on the question of how well reforms such as switch to vernacular have succeeded on their on terms, right?
   
   So, maybe it would be more fair to compare highly engaged NO/OF Catholics to highly engaged TLM/EF Catholics? There probably wouldn’t be a big difference. That seems like a fair point.
   
   However, again, keep in mind: The idea of the broader use of vernacular was to make ordinary Mass-going Catholics better informed, right?

1. 
   You think the laity was the only or necessarily the main concern? There’s very little that any change to the Mass can realistically be expected to do in regard to laypeople - those who aren’t really engaged with the faith, after all, either aren’t going to go or aren’t going to be paying attention if they do, regardless of which prayers or which language is used.
   
   And I think our church leaders are usually pretty pragmatic about such things.
   
   A large part of the motivation is just as likely to have been to make things a little easier for priests. And I think that’s probably just as legitimate a concern - they are if anything more impacted by such things than the laity are.

 

[Rabbititus]

Was it really? There’s very little that any change to the Mass can realistically be expected to do - those who aren’t really engaged with the faith, after all, either aren’t going to go or aren’t going to be paying attention if they do, regardless of which prayers or which language is used.

And I think our church leaders are usually pretty pragmatic about such things.

But if it doesn’t matter, why do the reform in the first place? Billions were spent on new missals and hymnals, not to mention church re-orderings…and let’s not forget all the time spent re-learning everything. If the changes left us with virtually no difference in regards to how well people understand and appreciate the mass, then one could conclude that it really was a huge waste of effort.

That isn’t to say that the changes were a failure, but if a study was done and it was found that the changes didn’t meet any of the intended goals, then one has to say that there was some sort of failure, regardless of how much you or I might personally like some of the changes.

I think we are entering into a period where the changes to the mass will be fairly critiqued and evaluated for how useful they genuinely were. The people who had too much emotionally invested in the changes are dying out, and younger people who didn’t live through or have personal involvement in the changes are going to replace them.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I lived the period. I am, as we say in anthropological terms, a particpant observer.

Anything I’d have to say would be off topic since I am not afraid of the Latin Mass. Burt Wolf was on PBS last night in Cologne, Germany. He used an awful lot of chant as background and an awful lot of responses from the Missa Cantata. I had no problems responding…

There is a whole bunch of us who grew up before Vatican II and who were never afraid of the Latin Mass. We’re not dead yet.

 

[LilyM]

But if it doesn’t matter, why do the reform in the first place? Billions were spent on new missals and hymnals, not to mention church re-orderings…and let’s not forget all the time spent re-learning everything. If the changes left us with virtually no difference in regards to how well people understand and appreciate the mass, then one could conclude that it really was a huge waste of effort.

That isn’t to say that the changes were a failure, but if a study was done and it was found that the changes didn’t meet any of the intended goals, then one has to say that there was some sort of failure, regardless of how much you or I might personally like some of the changes.

I think we are entering into a period where the changes to the mass will be fairly critiqued and evaluated for how useful they genuinely were. The people who had too much emotionally invested in the changes are dying out, and younger people who didn’t live through or have personal involvement in the changes are going to replace them.

Who says the changes (or at least some of them) didn’t matter and had no benefits? As I said, they may have been instituted for the benefit of priests and clergy.

Now I seem to remember St John Vianney for one having huge struggles with his seminary studies because of his lack of aptitude in Latin.

It is likely that less focus was placed on Latin, for example, in order to help seminarians in the same situation as the good Saint.

Since it almost undoubtedly HAS had the effect of helping seminarians who would similarly have struggled with the language, then it can be said to be beneficial in that regard AND to have achieved a (probable) goal.

 

[malphono]

Who says the changes (or at least some of them) didn’t matter? As I said, they may have been instituted for the benefit of priests and clergy.

Now I seem to remember St John Vianney for one having huge struggles with his seminary studies because of his lack of aptitude in Latin. If less focus on Latin, for example, has helped seminarians who would similarly have struggled with the language, then it can be said to be beneficial in that regard.

Yes, the Curé d’Ars struggled in seminary, but it wasn’t particularly his lack of aptitude in Latin. (Remember this was France, and French is a Romance language.) It was the course of studies in general. His bishop was of the opinion that young Jean Vianney wasn’t “the brightest bulb in the box” and only agreed to ordain him (initially as a “Mass priest” without faculties to preach or hear confessions) because of the pleas of the seminary rector.

Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems to me the good curé turned out pretty well.

 

[LilyM]

Yes, the Curé d’Ars struggled in seminary, but it wasn’t particularly his lack of aptitude in Latin. (Remember this was France, and French is a Romance language.) It was the course of studies in general. His bishop was of the opinion that young Jean Vianney wasn’t “the brightest bulb in the box” and only agreed to ordain him (initially as a “Mass priest” without faculties to preach or hear confessions) because of the pleas of the seminary rector.

Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems to me the good curé turned out pretty well.

Well the Latin certainly wouldn’t have made things any easier for him. He quite possibly would have finished sooner and thus been helping his parishioners that much quicker without it.

 

[Appleby]

Considering the addiction to Electronic Binkies, TextSpeak and the general inability to read, spell, punctuate, paragraph or recognize words more than three or four letters long, I daresay it will not be too much longer until the current generation demands that the Mass be celebrated in gibberish transmitted over their Binkies so they wont have to raise their heads or miss a single IM or e-mail or Txt.

As I wrote in the other much shorter thread on this subject, kids used to learn Latin in junior high school because it helped them/us to understand not only English but also the Romance languages we were also studying. I was amazed although I should not have been, that at the last music camp I attended for the purpose of singing the Haydn *Harmoniemesse *and the Durufle Requiem, how many of the under 35 attendees had no idea they would be singing in Latin and had to have special remedial tutoring before they could join the rest of us. Not only that, but if you have never sung a Latin mass, you have no idea in the world why the Harmoniemesse is so much fun!

My personal observation has been that the whining about how HARD it is to sing in Latin is inspired more by laziness and ignorance than it is by any mental inability. If a two year old can learn to sing Sur Le Pont du Avignon in French, a 25 year old can learn to sing the Sanctus in Latin.

 

[ASD]

Who says the changes (or at least some of them) didn’t matter and had no benefits? As I said, they may have been instituted for the benefit of priests and clergy.

Perhaps. I don’t think Sacrosanctum Concilium mentions clergy; but some other V2 documents may do so. This is a job for japhy’s Cross Reference. I’ll get back to you.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[LilyM]

Perhaps. I don’t think Sacrosanctum Concilium mentions clergy; but some other V2 documents may do so. This is a job for japhy’s Cross Reference. I’ll get back to you.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

Remember the Pauline Mass came a good few years after V2 - there may be other pertinent documents than those of V2.

And some of the intentions behind the Pauline Mass may well not have been written in any publicly available document, but may nonethless be both genuine and worthy.

 

[malphono]

Well the Latin certainly wouldn’t have made things any easier for him. He quite possibly would have finished sooner and thus been helping his parishioners that much quicker without it.

Lily, you really do hate Latin, don’t you?

Somehow I doubt that the Latin made one whit of difference in the case of the Curé d’Ars. It’s relatively easy to learn Latin when one is a native speaker of any of the Romance languages. The same way that it is relatively easy for a native speaker of a Slavic language to learn Staroslavenski.

 

[Indyann]

I lived the period. I am, as we say in anthropological terms, a particpant observer.

Anything I’d have to say would be off topic since I am not afraid of the Latin Mass. Burt Wolf was on PBS last night in Cologne, Germany. He used an awful lot of chant as background and an awful lot of responses from the Missa Cantata. I had no problems responding…

There is a whole bunch of us who grew up before Vatican II and who were never afraid of the Latin Mass. We’re not dead yet.

I also grew up before VaticanII and I am not now, nor have I ever been afraid of the Latin Mass.

However I prefer Mass in the vernacular, just as I prefer movies in the English language. I am not dead yet either

 

[ProVobis]

I think it’s because one of the big things to come out of Vatican II was a friendly reminder that Jesus is not only present in the Blessed Sacrament, but in other aspects of the Mass as well.

I think this needs to be reinforced more.

 

[LilyM]

Lily, you really do hate Latin, don’t you?

Somehow I doubt that the Latin made one whit of difference in the case of the Curé d’Ars. It’s relatively easy to learn Latin when one is a native speaker of any of the Romance languages. The same way that it is relatively easy for a native speaker of a Slavic language to learn Staroslavenski.

Yeah, I hate Latin so very much.

In fact such is my utter loathing and disgust that I’m just about the only member of my NO congregation who can sing loud and proud along with the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei and whatever other parts of the Mass are done in Latin - as they are every Sunday.

Not to toot my own horn, I just have a passing interest in languages in general. I combine it with a realisation that not everyone shares the same level of capability or interest, and that such things as foreign languages can be a serious stumbling block for those who don’t.

 

[ProVobis]

Yes, the Curé d’Ars struggled in seminary, but it wasn’t particularly his lack of aptitude in Latin.

He wouldn’t have had it much better today. Canon Law 249 requires seminarians to study Latin.

Heck, we need someone to teach it.

 

[ProVobis]

such things as foreign languages can be a serious stumbling block for those who don’t.

Especially if that foreign language happens to be English for them.

 

[LilyM]

Especially if that foreign language happens to be English for them.

No doubt.

 

[malphono]

He wouldn’t have had it much better today. Canon Law 249 requires seminarians to study Latin.

Heck, we need someone to teach it.

Remember, I didn’t say he had problems with Latin. I’m the one who rather doubted that he did.

Well, be that as it may, I hate to be the one to break this news, but apparently canon 249 is flouted on a daily basis.

 

[malphono]

Yeah, I hate Latin so very much.

In fact such is my utter loathing and disgust that I’m just about the only member of my NO congregation who can sing loud and proud along with the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei and whatever other parts of the Mass are done in Latin - as they are every Sunday.

Not to toot my own horn, I just have a passing interest in languages in general. I combine it with a realisation that not everyone shares the same level of capability or interest, and that such things as foreign languages can be a serious stumbling block for those who don’t.

Not tooting mine either, but I share that interest, although in my case it’s perhaps a bit more than passing.

On a side note, it’s interesting that you deal with Latin in the OF on a weekly basis. Yes, I realize that it does exist, and that you’re in the UK, but I have to say that the “reform of the reform” (whether in whole or in part) is rather a rare duck in these US.

 

[LilyM]

Not tooting mine either, but I share that interest, although in my case it’s perhaps a bit more than passing.

On a side note, it’s interesting that you deal with Latin in the OF on a weekly basis. Yes, I realize that it does exist, and that you’re in the UK, but I have to say that the “reform of the reform” (whether in whole or in part) is rather a rare duck in these US.

Oh, I’m not a Brit. I’m Australian. And from what I’ve seen of some other parts of the country it’s certainly not widespread enough here either

I have the good fortune of having the wonderful and wonderfully orthodox (for the most part anyways) George Cardinal Pell as my archbishop

 

[Rabbititus]

Who says the changes (or at least some of them) didn’t matter and had no benefits? As I said, they may have been instituted for the benefit of priests and clergy.

But you didn’t say anything about priests and clergy in the post I responded to - you went back and edited your post while I was making my reply.

Now I seem to remember St John Vianney for one having huge struggles with his seminary studies because of his lack of aptitude in Latin.

It is likely that less focus was placed on Latin, for example, in order to help seminarians in the same situation as the good Saint.

Since it almost undoubtedly HAS had the effect of helping seminarians who would similarly have struggled with the language, then it can be said to be beneficial in that regard AND to have achieved a (probable) goal.

Overall I consider the language change to be perhaps the most minor change in the mass after Vatican II, and in a lot of respects it was probably a good change. I was thinking also of the many other changes - to the text of the mass, the lectionary, and especially “turning the altars around,” abandoning our entire musical tradition, and ditching communion given while kneeling. That stuff cost a fortune, not just in terms of money, but also the upheaval it caused in the lives of average Catholics.