Are Some People Afraid Of The Latin Mass?

[malphono]

Dauphin stated that "Versus populum is an inferior posture because it makes the Mass inward-looking

. It creates a “closed circle” of priest and people, thereby disrupting the sense of the Mass as a prayer and sacrifice offered to God. It makes the priest a sort of entertainer or presider."

For myself, I have never witnessed a priest leading Mass as a “entertainer” or even “presider.” My question is, is it the same for all prayer? Since the conception here seems to be that the latin Mass is the only “true” way of worship and prayer, does it extend to every form of prayer, regardless of when and where? Remember, that people here on this forum say their personal prayers in latin, claiming latin to be a “sacred” language. How far should we take it???

That’s quite the response I expected.

 

[CradleCath]

Actually, Pope Benedict is the one who convinced me of the superiority of Ad Orientem

in the first place. Here are a couple excerpts from his book, “The Spirit of the Liturgy”:

*“The turning of the priest toward the people has turned the community into a self-enclosed circle. In its outward form, it no longer opens out on what lies ahead and above, but is locked into itself. The common turning toward the East was not a “celebration toward the wall”; it did not mean that the priest “had his back to the people”: **the priest himself was not regarded as so important. For just as the congregation in the synagogue looked together toward Jerusalem, so in the Christian Liturgy the congregation looked together “toward the Lord”. ***As one of the fathers of Vatican II’s Constitution on the Liturgy, J.A. Jungmann, put it, it was much more a question of priest and people facing in the same direction, knowing that together they were in a procession toward the Lord. They did not lock themselves into a circle, they did not gaze at one another, but as the pilgrim People of God they set off for the Oriens, for the Christ who comes to meet us.”

The emboldened part says it all. There is So much clericalism in the “Church of Vatican II”. I love the Tridentine Mass for many reasons…one of them being the fact that the priest (sorry–PRESIDER) is more one with us, humbling himself & asking forgiveness for his own sins as well as ours. We are both praying toward the liturgical “East” awaiting the second arrival of Christ… For as the lightning comes** from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be**. (Matthew, 24: 26-27). And we are ALL facing to the high altar &, where the Tabernacle rests in complete splendor (or **should **rest, anyway).

 

[malachi3]

I think some people fear what we represent to them, and that is the Catholic Church as it was 50 yrs ago. They prefer their ultra-liberal parishes where Hell and Purgatory are never mentioned, most people never go to confession, altar girls and female eucharistic ministers are the norm, and no one want’s to go back to the “Bad Old Days” because they’ve already spent alot of time apologizing for that.

I agree 100%. I asked a visiting relative if she would like to go to the Latin Mass at Christmas and she looked at me like I asked if she’d like to get leprosy. Then was harangued for 10 minutes about how mean the parents and nuns were back then etc. etc. All the bad memories are connected to the Latin Mass? This really bothered me because I have come to love the Latin Mass in the last year. Everyone I know at the local novus ordo parish wants a quick mass on Saturday evening - I used to be one of them because I didnt have much time on the weekend. Luckily now I do.

 

[CradleCath]

Dauphin, I disagree with you. I grew up with the Latin Mass, with the Priest facing away from the congregation.

**
I used my missal at Mass and followed with the English side of the missal.**

 

[LilyM]

Not to argue, but while English is basically considered a Germanic tongue, it was very deeply and profoundly influenced and enriched by Norman (French) after 1066 AD. For example, the word “cow” derives from the German kuh whereas the word “beef” is from the French boeuf. Nothing there to do with 16-th-17th century “classical revivals.” Another example is the royal arms of the UK: it still bears the words Dieu et Mon Droit which are pure Norman French.

So the name of the animal is German, the name of the meat is French - doesn’t matter, we use both words in roughly equal proportion, it’s not like we really (in general) talk about meat more than animals, do we? So you can’t say the French predominates the language by any stretch of the imagination.

In grammar especially (which is by far the biggest barrier when English speakers try to learn Romance languages) English is in fact in a class of its own - significant differences even from German let alone any other European tongue.

As for the coat of arms - of course you’re talking about the Queen’s coat of Arms. There is more than one royal coat of arms, you know. The Prince of Wales’ coat of arms, for example, has the motto ‘Ich Dien’ - which is German.

No, there’s nothing wrong with it. Say it in whatever language you wish, but to me none (and I’ve heard it in several) conveys the same tenderness that jumps out from the Latin. And anyway, is it really so hard to learn it in Latin? Among more important things, it’s a helpful way to become more familiar with Latin in general.

Pure subjective personal opinion. Of no more significance than the fact that you might like the colour blue better than yellow or vice versa.

And why should I learn any non-liturgical prayer in Latin? I don’t care to, I don’t have to, it does not add to my life in any way to, and I’ve got many other things that I need to spend my mental energy on.

 

[jakobsprenger]

Well, I guess this debate ^^^^^^^^ at least is helping to answer the OP’s question…

 

[Frosty]

Yes, that is the true Mass of Vatican II. And EWTN is the ONLY place it can be found.

 

[CradleCath]

Frosty;4674483]CradleCath;4673526]

Really? And you know this for an absolute fact, eh? Your all-seeing eye has taken in every single Mass said throughout the world each and every day and come to this conclusion? It must be wonderful to be omnipotent!

Since I was answering a statement about the Mass on EWTN:

“The Pauline Mass is beautiful when done as on EWTN’s Daily Mass - part English and part Latin”,

and this Mass…partly in English, partly in Latin as it was proscribed by the actual council (not the “spirit” of the council), this Mass…that promotes Gregorian Chant & “gives it pride of place” within it is quite rare. I think that in the morning I’ll post a poll in a new thread. I’ll ask how many here attend a Latin/English Novus Ordo Mass with polyphony or Chant, regularly…unless you, of course, have “taken in every single Mass said throughout the world each and every day” & could actually tell me all of the places where this Mass is commonplace.

It’s comments just like this from so-called “traditionalists” that make people who otherwise are favourable to traditional Catholic practices, but do prefer the Pauline Mass, draw some very unflattering opinions of those making the statements.

No, it’s statements like mine that show how far from actual obedience the Church in the US. has come. The Mass on EWTN IS the Mass of Vatican II, the Pauline Mass. Do you kneel to receive Communion on the tongue? because that’s what the Novus Ordo Mass of Vatican II intended. Does your priest face the liturgical East? How about your EXTRAordinay Ministers of the Eucharist…do they serve only in EXTRAordinay circumstances? What about your altar servers…are they all boys or men? And I’m just sure that your parish only offers the Eucharist in both species on special occasions to those who are being ordained & to those who are being Baptized as per Vat. II instructions…right?

If you can answer ‘yes’ to the above questions you are praying the true Pauline Mass.

This constant painting with a broad brush of everything having to do with the Pauline Mass or Vatican II in nothing but a negative way is ridiculous and intellectually dishonest.

Your gripe should be against those who ignored the council & did it their own way. They have given you a bastardized facsimile of the Mass of the council & many Catholics don’t even know that. BTW., You might want to read some of the documents of the council, starting with Sacrosanctum Concilium.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

I guess I’ll just have to inform my 60 year old “hippie” pastor that he really doesn’t celebrate Mass reverently. Funny, I thought he did as well as any priest who celebrated Mass during the 50’s and 60’s when I was growing up. Oh, and perhaps someone ought to tell the Pope that his Masses aren’t really up to scratch either and he should take a crash course in the proper way from EWTN!

Haven’t seen many Papal Masses, have you?

 

[ProVobis]

Yes, that is the true Mass of Vatican II. And EWTN is the ONLY place it can be found.

 

[ProVobis]

And why should I learn any non-liturgical prayer in Latin? I don’t care to, I don’t have to, it does not add to my life in any way to, and I’ve got many other things that I need to spend my mental energy on.

Yes, but look at the fun you’re having in tearing it to shreds.

Dominus nobiscum?

 

[jakobsprenger]

I tried to be subtle previously, but - Repeat after me: THREADJACK!!!

Get back on topic you supposed Catholic individuals…this really helps reinforce the Liberals POV. Man, we seem to be our own worst enemy at times. Tied up in the minutae of things while missing the big picture

 

[ProVobis]

This whole thread may be missing the big picture, no?

 

[ASD]

To respond directly to OP, yea, many people are terrified of it, and I pray every day that their fears are well founded. Here’s how I read Summorum Pontificum:

(1) The way the NO/OF has developed is ridiculous. It’s unacceptable. Attempts to change the direction, such as Redemptionis Sacramentum, have been disregarded.
(2) For that reason (among others), we’re going to put the good old gold standard on a new footing. Henceforth, TLM is EF.

So, here’s what can happen: Mere assertions about superiority of NO/OF might not suffice any longer. People are gonna be able to see for themselves, judge for themselves.

It’s called competition. Side-by-side comparison to test the truth of what they’ve been telling us all these years. In a sense, it doesn’t really matter how many people start attending regularly. The example, or counter-example, of EF will still stand; as a reproach, I think.

Have you ever read Eucharistic Prayer III, which is the prayer that is used at my church at least 95% of the time? …

FWIW, I virtually always hear EP II at local OF.

Also, although I realize that OF can be celebrated ad orientam, it’s always versus populum in this neck of the woods. There’s something about the body language of OF versus populum that clearly conveys the idea of a memorial of the Lord’s Supper, gathering around a supper table rather than bowing at a sacrificial altar or weeping at Calvary.

I guess one could object that talk about body language is too vague to change anybody’s mind. But, here’s a plain fact:

I didn’t understand that Mass is a sacrifice until I went to TLM indult in 2007.

And I will bet my 1962 Daily Missal that a poll of OF Catholics would show that huge numbers of them don’t get it either. That is a stubborn fact that requires explanation. If OF is so clear about sacrifice, why don’t all those OF Catholics grok?

Off the top of my head I recall that the placement of the Mystery of Faith in the latin missal holds a confused understanding. While there are copious commentaries trying to “explain” exactly what it means they all lack any specific, particular definition. What exactly does “Mystery of Faith” mean and why is it particular only to the consecration of the wine?

Also, the “spotless oblation” as offered is confused, as most would consider it “spotless” after the consecration, not before.

Lastly, I have read many times how the latin Roman Canon seems to be a hodge-podge of prayers and petitions, lacking a certain cohesiveness.

Undoubtedly correct. As I’m sure you’re aware, people use the expression, “organic growth.” The old Mass is like an old city that developed by being used and inhabited. Or like a tree that twisted this way and that over the decades. It’s not like a planned suburb or renovated dowtown plaza, thanks be to God.

That an old city or the limbs of a tree seem “confused” is hardly surprising. But, again, the thing that blows my mind is that after 40 years of OF, real understanding of Mass is so poor. They set out to make it clear; nobody is clear about it. There’s a moral in there somewhere.

I am so very tired of hearing this…

Tim, have you started a thread somewhere that explains your attitude toward EF? I don’t know whether there’s any fear of EF in your heart, but I gather from remarks here and there that your appreciation is not unqualified? I would love to read about that.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[jakobsprenger]

Thankyou ProVobis and God Bless you. ASD, Timothysis, Dauphin; et al please read the OP’s original post and get back on topic. Is it any wonder that folks who come to Catholic Answers Forums who may be interested in attending a TLM and start trolling for answers, then come across a thread like this containing such divisiness, anger and hate, turn away? We are trying to evangelise and turn folks toward us; what will they think when faced with the angst and torment here? I’m at a loss…this is not the thread for your personal interpretation of liturgy; answer the Op’s question. This Traditional forum has been shut down before, and with what I’ve seen of some folks posts on this thread alone, it is in danger of happening again. We are CATHOLICS meaning Universal; let’s start acting like it…

 

[ASD]

Quick aside. Then back to topic.

Dauphin;4672191:

Full and active participation can be completely internal.

Agreed! And as an actively participating Mass-goer, it’s terribly disconcerting …

I do appreciate what you two are saying. I’m for assisting reverently rather than participating actively, myself.

But, IMHO, Lazerlike42 nailed that claim pretty well the other day.

BTW, for anyone who doesn’t know yet, Wholly Roamin’ Catholic is a great blog. Statistics indicate 1.3 good laughs per post.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[weepixie71]

Have you been downtown to Sacred Heart? The priests there offer a very good OF. On Sunday the choir sings in Latin. And the Church is gorgeous!!!

sacredheartpeoria.com/PHOTOGALLERY5.html

yes i have been there. the mass is beautiful but when we go i do not see children. i have 4 of them 11, 4, 2 and newborn. the people do not appear used to them. it is also 20min from my house. if im going to have to go a ways i might as well go to the mass i am now more comfortable with and will know my family is welcome

 

[WhollyRoamin]

BTW, for anyone who doesn’t know yet, Wholly Roamin’ Catholic is a great blog. Statistics indicate 1.3 good laughs per post.

Oh gosh, thanks! I try my best, though the posts are a lot funnier in my head than it comes out in my font.

 

[PJM]

Re: Are Some People Afraid Of The Latin Mass ?

Yes without doubt.

Here's why. In my six months assocaition with this wonderful CAF, super abundant evidence is available that proves that there are a GREAT MANY folks out there who are clearly afraid of the Truth.

 The Extrodinary Latin Mass, is the closest encounter to God, next the Catholic Holy Communion.

  The Extrodinary Latin Mass, is God centered, God focused, faith enriching, and Catholic unifying. It's not about the GREAT US, it's about God and us.:yup: :love: :extrahappy:

 

[Dauphin]

And why should I learn any non-liturgical prayer in Latin? I don’t care to, I don’t have to, it does not add to my life in any way to, and I’ve got many other things that I need to spend my mental energy on.

Because the Pope said to. Aren’t you folks always on about how the Holy Father can do no wrong?

He’s said that every Catholic should learn the Pater Noster and Ave Maria (among others) in Latin:

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0503776.htm

The Holy Spirit guides absolutely everything the Pope does, right? So what are you waiting for? Get to work!

 

[Dauphin]

But, IMHO, Lazerlike42 nailed that claim pretty well the other day.

I didn’t make a claim about what the Second Vatican Council called for.

I know for a fact that I participate fully and actively in the Mass even if I don’t utter a single word or shake a single hand. No one can tell me otherwise.