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sedonaman
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Sounds like you are saying that a doctor, for example, can’t relate to a patient unless the doctor had the same disease at one time.
Are the Church Leaders "Out of Touch" with the congregation?
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StJudePray4Me
Guest
I’m sorry, I’m with Owlpride. I don’t think anyone who doesn’t have kids knows what it’s like to be a parent, and someone who has never been married doesn’t know what it’s like to be married! (I remember making lots of crazy statements about what I would and wouldn’t do when I had kids — I was so sure I knew exactly what it was going to be like. Ha!)
Likewise, I can’t imagine what it’s like to be a priest… The pressures, the expectations, the demands on you…just can’t imagine. I would ot expect a priest to rely on me for advice about how to handle that, I’d expect him to go to another priest.
The point is, I think that some people feel that the Church is telling them how to live their lives, without feeling like the Church even understands their lives. I think a common sentiment among people who we would call Cafeteria Cathoilcs in response to the Church is “Yeah, well, that’s easy for you to say.”
Likewise, I can’t imagine what it’s like to be a priest… The pressures, the expectations, the demands on you…just can’t imagine. I would ot expect a priest to rely on me for advice about how to handle that, I’d expect him to go to another priest.
The point is, I think that some people feel that the Church is telling them how to live their lives, without feeling like the Church even understands their lives. I think a common sentiment among people who we would call Cafeteria Cathoilcs in response to the Church is “Yeah, well, that’s easy for you to say.”
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GraceDK
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,
**How does NFP *prevent ***pregnancy though?Code:Besides, the approved Catholic method of birth control - by the calendar - has the very same goal - preventing a pregnancy.
Abstaining is not preventing. I hope you agree… preventing is when you do something which actually halts a natural consequence of a natural event. When you use NFP you work with the natural cycle of the woman and you respect it. People who practice NFP are aware that there is always the chance of a child. If they are absolutely closed to the idea, they abstain… which was also what our forefathers did when they wanted to space children… NFP is a gift from God in our time
**Really? Wide variety? what doctrines is that? Would you say that eg. the doctrine of the primacy of Peter fits right well in there with openly permitted doctrines? And who exactly permits one doctrine and not another in the Protestant world? At least in the protestant church where I grew up there was total confusion, so much so that remarriage and homosexual blessings occurred in that church now… **Code:I come from a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage and one of my main interests is reconciliation among Christians. That is difficult when one side adamantly claims that it alone has the full splendor of truth and all other Christians are mistaken. I favor a more open attitude - the sort you find among most mainline Protestants who permit communicants to have a wide variety of views on doctrines and such.
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EasterJoy
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Yes, some priests are clueless, but let’s flip the coin and think about it: Sometimes your neighbor or even your brother, who was just commiserating with you about his problems last week, can have a surprising lack of comprehension that you have problems, too. A person might have gone through something almost exactly similar to what you’re going through and be a great deal less of a comfort than someone who hasn’t, because the person with the “experience” thinks that they know everything. In other words, I’m not so sure that a priest with a broken down car, rebellious kids, and a cranky wife of his own to worry about is necessarily going to be a better resource than the one who is not “able to fully grasp the issues.”
The truth is, St. Paul required that the presbyters be taken from those whose homes had things were in order, not the ones who were in the same chaos as the people they were trying to lead. There could be a reason for that.
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GraceDK
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Really? I really think I recall Paul saying that the Presbyters not only be taken from such homes but were also the heads of those homes and the ones who had made sure things were in order…
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Owlpride
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I’ve heard that argument a dozen times, and it goes against common sense. A pathologist spends alot of their time studying a certian disease. In fact, they spend a great deal of time studying certian diseases. So no, they don’t have to have the disease to treat it, but they do need to study it. Alot. Do priests spend the majority of their time studying counseling only? IE-An infectious disease doctor won’t be able to tell you alot about a heart attack. Sure, they’ll know the basics, but not alot. A priest, in order to be a good counselor, needs to spend alot of his time studying counseling, and cousneling only. If you have a problem with a car, go to a mechanic, if you have AIDS, go to a doctor that specializes in AIDS.
See my point?
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EasterJoy
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No, I don’t see your point. It is the basics that people don’t want to be told. A family practice doctor can tell most people what they need to do: quit smoking, eat right, get some exercise and enough sleep, and learn how to lighten up. Do that, and most of your chronic disease risk will be slashed. Yet people would rather ignore those basics, do what they want, and then go scout up a specialist who can deal with the havoc they’ve created in their bodies. No, the current problem is more like people who drive their cars with no oil and then complain that those eggheads in Detroit who expect regular oil changes “don’t understand the way my life works.”
Again, I’m talking about the complaint of the OP, that is that “the Church is unreasonable in it’s expectations about chaste living, birth control, gay marriage and other social issues”. That doesn’t take a four-year degree in counselling.
This is the trouble: The doctors of the soul are confessors and preachers of the plain truth of the Gospel, but people want counsellors, instead.
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Owlpride
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As long as you tried to see it, that’s all I can ask. Obviously, I think I’m right.
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Castello
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Source please.
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Castello
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Come to think of it, Jesus did not have a wife or kids so he cannot be trusted either
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EasterJoy
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Fair enough. Suffice it to say that common sense can easily arrive at a different conclusion than you did.
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Deo_Gratias42
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I have.
Personally, I find my priest to be surprisingly in-touch with the issues that people from my generation (in their 20s-30s) are going through right now. I was absolutely shocked during his sermon on modesty when he addressed the fact how difficult it is for young women to find modest clothing, and touched on the lengths women have to go to in order to modify clothing to make it modest. Most priests when discussing modesty during their sermons harp on about the “two fingers breadth below the pit of the throat” shirt collar guidelines from the mid 50s, etc. (Aside from hoodies and turtlenecks, I have yet to find a shirt that adheres to this guideline, unless I shop in the seniors section. That doesn’t work though because the blouses are cut for women who are having err…gravity issues, and don’t fit properly.) My priest gives realistic guidelines, which are still modest, and puts the onus on the men to take responsibility for themselves and to keep custody of their eyes.
My priest also talks about how terrible the catechism was (and still is) for young adults, and guides us in how to correct that.
Even in the Confessional he gives helpful practical counsel for dealing with every day issues other than to “pray more”. Although, I know when he’s got nothing to give me about an issue, he’ll counsel me to “pray and ask God how to handle that.”
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Owlpride
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Now that was excatly what I was trying to say. Brilliant.Come to think of it, Jesus did not have a wife or kids so he cannot be trusted either
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anthony022071
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Many Church leaders have been out of touch in the wrong ways. That is,many of them have been out of touch with the more faithful and devout and discerning Catholics - the ones who pray often,practice devotions,evangelize and accept only the authentic teachings of the Church. And many Church leaders have been favoring government programs to help the poor,the sick,and illegal immigrants,which many Catholics oppose because it is not proper for the government to be doing what people should be doing for themselves and for others.
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anthony022071
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The encyclicals have to do with doctrine and they are directed at clergy,laypeople and theologians in general. Their content is not a simple message that is intended to speak to each person in a personal way. It is necessary for us to have a solid intellectual foundation and a dignified manner of expression for Catholic doctrines,so that we will be able to defend them properly and discern truth from falsehood. There is far more to Catholic teaching than the gospel itself or having a personal relationship with Jesus. We should raise our minds to comprehend the truths of our faith,not demand that Church leaders teach us like a personal friend might. We need to know the fullness of truth about the Trinity,creation,sin,natural law,humans being created in the image of God,the necessity of prayer and obedience to God,Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross,grace,Mary and the communion of saints,the Church being the mystical body of Christ,the Eucharist.
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anthony022071
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Catholic Church leaders also make the rules of the faith personal and loving,but where it is appropriate. It is not always proper or adequate or even possible to communicate the rules of the faith in that manner. The truth must be communicated publicly to the whole Church,to society and to the government,as well as in a more intimate manner to small groups. When the Church or its teachings or human rights are under assault,or when there is widespread doubt among Catholics in regard to Church teaching,it is necessary for Church leaders to speak firmly and authoritatively. Sometimes you just just have to lay down the law. The authoritative modes of transmission will never be obsolete,because they are always necessary.
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anthony022071
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The OP didn’t complain about that,he was talking about other people who make that complaint.
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EasterJoy
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Yes, but that particular complaint was the topic of the original post, the “out of touch” in question. That certain churchmen might be out of touch in other respects is a bit different topic.
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Pamm
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Reading this thread has raised a question for me – indeed the Bible is inspired by God and passed on within Scriptures. Are we to understand the catechism also is inspired by God? Where in the Bible does it say this, if it is true?I am being sincere in my question here so please – no assaults.
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jwinch2
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It doesn’t.
The Bible does not even promise us that there will be a Bible. What it does promise is a Church. It also tells us that not everything Christ did and said was written down. In fact, the sacred authors told us that it would have been impossible to do that because there was just too much. Also, try to remember that there was no Bible for the first few hundred years of Christianity, but there was a Church.
In the Catholic Church, we view Sacred Tradition as co-equal with Sacred Tradition and Magesterial Teaching. Thus, the official doctrine of the Church is to be viewed with the same level of authority as the Bible is. It is the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, after who compiled the Bible and decided which books would be included and which would not. How did that happen, unless the Church possesses the authority to do so?
What you have to remember is that the Church, being founded by Christ and invested with the power of the Holy Spirit, represents an authoritative teaching body. In order to understand that properly, you have to know the origins of the word “authority”. It you go back to the etymology of the word, you will find the word “Author” or “Inventor” depending on the translation and also the word “Truth” when you are looking at origins related to religious usage. This is because the word “Authority” has to do with the Author/Inventor/Creator of Truth; meaning of course, God. When we say that the Church has authority, such as in the ability to decide the canon of Scripture, we do not mean it a secular way like it is typically used. It has nothing to do with bossing people around. No, when the Church refers to “authority”, it means that she has been invested with God’s power as the author of truth. When we say she does not have authority, such as in the ordination of women, we mean that God did not give the Church the power to override God’s truth.
The last thing I will say is that the Catechism references the Bible more than any other document or writing in its text.
I hope that helps to some extent. Peace,
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