Are the Church Leaders "Out of Touch" with the congregation?

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Yeah, I do believe some Church Leaders are out of touch with their congregation. I also think there are some congregations who are “out of touch” with their Church Leaders, as well. 😉

I’ve been blessed with a down-to-earth priest who really does preach so well even a little kid can understand, and he does so without compromising the message. But there are some people who aren’t so blessed, and I’ll give you an example. I visited a neighboring parish where the priest mumbled his homily, and he kept going off into theological tangents that went straight over everybody’s heads. No one understood what he was talking about, and this was unfortunate as I know those people left church spiritually starved. At least I did…

So yeah, in this case I think the priest was out of touch with the congregation. It was his responsibility to communicate effectively and he didn’t do it. In fact, I later found out that this happens more than once there. Why become a priest if you have no people skills? Baffles me…🤷

Now there are other situations where the congregations are completely out of touch with the Church Leaders. Birth control is one of them…
 
It seems to me that church leaders are out of touch with many Catholics - probably most. Take artificial birth control. There is something bizarre about a celibate male clergy being experts and setting policy on this issue. Married people who already have 3-4 children and a limited income and a desire to give their children the best education etc possible - those are the ones who should be consulted about this question. The current public discussion of this issue is making it clear that Cardinal Dolan and others are likely to alienate even more Catholics by their aggressive stand.
Meanwhile, the continuing attacks on Obama could easily alienate many who are strong Democrats, many already alienated to some degree. It also hurts Catholic efforts to win converts among African-Americans. Right or wrong, Obama symbolizes to most of them that they finally have achieved full 'citizenship' in a land where for 200 years most of their ancestors faced slavery and then over 100 years of bitter and systemic discimination.
 
EasterJoy said:
No, I don’t see your point. It is the basics that people don’t want to be told. A family practice doctor can tell most people what they need to do: quit smoking, eat right, get some exercise and enough sleep, and learn how to lighten up. Do that, and most of your chronic disease risk will be slashed. Yet people would rather ignore those basics, do what they want, and then go scout up a specialist who can deal with the havoc they’ve created in their bodies. No, the current problem is more like people who drive their cars with no oil and then complain that those eggheads in Detroit who expect regular oil changes “don’t understand the way my life works.”

Again, I’m talking about the complaint of the OP, that is that “the Church is unreasonable in it’s expectations about chaste living, birth control, gay marriage and other social issues”. That doesn’t take a four-year degree in counselling.

This is the trouble: The doctors of the soul are confessors and preachers of the plain truth of the Gospel, but people want counsellors, instead.
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Just to clarify, It was not MY complaint. It was a complaint I heard from several people recently and I was interested in discussing whether or not they might have a point.
 
Roy5 said:
It seems to me that church leaders are out of touch with many Catholics - probably most. Take artificial birth control. There is something bizarre about a celibate male clergy being experts and setting policy on this issue. Married people who already have 3-4 children and a limited income and a desire to give their children the best education etc possible - those are the ones who should be consulted about this question. The current public discussion of this issue is making it clear that Cardinal Dolan and others are likely to alienate even more Catholics by their aggressive stand.
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 Meanwhile, the continuing attacks on Obama could easily alienate many who are strong Democrats, many already alienated to some degree. It also hurts Catholic efforts to win converts among African-Americans. Right or wrong, Obama symbolizes to most of them that they finally have achieved full 'citizenship' in a land where for 200 years most of their ancestors faced slavery and then over 100 years of bitter and systemic discimination.
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The Catholic Church is the light of truth, we are not trying to win in politics.
 
As I sat in Mass this morning, I came to realize that most people are out of touch with the Church, not the other way around. A quick bit of background. My wife and I typically sit all the way up front as it makes it easier to concentrate on the Mass with my ADD, etc. However, I have been fighting an illness for the last week and a half so we decided to sit in a less populated location far in the back and off to the side in hopes that an occasional coughing fit on my part would be less distracting and that as long as I covered my mouth that I would be less likely to infect anyone. I could not go to Mass last week due to illness and I definitely did not wish to miss two weeks in a row.

Sitting in the back and to the side like that, you notice things that you don’t when you sit up front. Right off the bat, I would say that 75% of the people in our section of the church did not sing, do the responses, or even consider prayer during the Mass. At the beginning, they would come in, sit down, kneel for a few seconds while looking around or talking to each other, and then sit back down again. I watched parents joking with their kids throughout the entire Mass, to include the readings, homily, and consecration of the Eucharist. After a short time, I just closed my eyes and tried to focus on the words of the priest so that I would not be distracted. In addition, I had to pray deeply to stop judging others because I could feel myself slipping into “holier than thou” mode and I have too much concupiscence towards sinning of my own to deal with. After praying for a while for God to rid me of my judgmental attitude, I was left with a profound feeling of sadness at the state of our parish.

Regardless, here is the point. If the claims are true that 75% of self-identified Catholics do not attend Mass. And if what I saw today is any reflection, somewhere between 25-50% of the ones that do attend do not believe in the real presence and are only coming to Mass to check the box. At no time were they engaged in the Mass or did they give any indication of belief in God or His Church. To be fair, when we sat in the back at our previous parish, I do not remember this sort of thing being so pronounced so perhaps our parish is not a good barometer of the situation.

Do the Bishops have some fault in this? Probably so. It is not exactly a secret regarding the lack of catechesis in the last two generations, or the things which were allowed to take place under the umbrella of the “Spirit of Vatican II”. However, much of the blame must also fall on the parents in this and in the past two generations. If the parents, following Vatican II, had taken their responsibility as the Domestic Church seriously and understood their role as the primary persons responsible for passing on the faith properly, things would not be as bad as they are now. Parents have dropped the ball as much, if not more, as the Bishops ever have.

Oh well. Those are my observations on the situation. I need to pray more often for all of us, starting with me, to be more deeply conformed to the mystical body of Christ.

Peace,
 
It doesn’t really make sense to say one part or another is “out of touch”… anyone who is a leader comes from the rest of us… we are all linked.

The sense that I sometimes get with Catholics is that many are seemingly focused on rules, laws and church… they are not focused on Jesus or the Holy Spirit… or if they are, they have this “me and Jesus” relationship that lets no one else see it or experience it or get moved by it. ( I am here not talking about being loving to one’s neighbour. This is beautiful and must not be neglected, but its not what Im talking about).

I have met many people who live by the letter… they are fantastic at exegesis(?) and apologetics… they speak about “the Church” and “the teachings of the Church” etc…
but you hardly hear the word JESUS come out of their mouth…

I can be humanly attracted to good people like those… but inspired to faith I will only be with those who are passionate about the person of Jesus, who experience His actual presense and action in their lives and who act on the promises in the Bible. I like to talk about theology with people but if they get a really wierd look on their face and freeze when I ask if we can pray together openly for a sick person to get healed, with hands on, I must wonder what happend between the New Testament and post-modern Catholicism.

I sometimes must also ask myself what “fullness of faith” means… is it a merely theroretical thing? I would think it shouldn’t be.

If we were the paralysed man at the gate in Jerusalem and Peter and John walked by, would we become believers due to an impressive speech on the commandments? or would we rather become believers if Peter and John testified about the person of Jesus, what He had done for them, and “looked at him and said: Silver and gold I have none, but I give you what I have… In the name of Christ Jesus, stand up and walk”.?

I think many of us have come out of touch with the basics, with the GOSPEL, with the Person… and for that reason we don’t/can’t shine a light in the world. If more us us were like the apostles our parishes would not be asleep…
Therefore: The last ones to blame are the ones to whom we have not testified effectively.
 
StJudePray4Me said:
Just to clarify, It was not MY complaint. It was a complaint I heard from several people recently and I was interested in discussing whether or not they might have a point.
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Yes, to clarify: I meant the complaint related in the original post (OP) not the complaint of the original poster (also OP).
 
Pamm said:
Reading this thread has raised a question for me – indeed the Bible is inspired by God and passed on within Scriptures. Are we to understand the catechism also is inspired by God? Where in the Bible does it say this, if it is true?I am being sincere in my question here so please – no assaults.
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The Bible relates the teaching authority of the Church. It is a indispensible part of the deposit of faith, but the teaching and defense of the deposit of faith belongs to the Magesterium, who are the successors of the Apostles. One of the ways the Magesterium is currently communicating the deposit of faith and its requirements has been the publication of the Catechism, Compendium, and other such documents.

The degree to which a Church-promulgated catechism teaches dogma (which is unchangeable and which we have a duty to hold as the objective truth) or an explanation of dogma or the current discipline of the Church (which is somewhat subject to change and may not always carry the same degree of duty) differs from one part of the catechism to another.

I’d look at the catechism as the first iteration of an ongoing education…the introductory text of a course we are continually receiving as we deepen our understanding of our faith. When we are in confusion, we go to the living teachers and we ask further questions about the meaning of that text.

The Bible, in contrast, is the Word of God. It carries a mystical power and significance that is on another plane entirely from the catechism, but by the choice of God typically requires a great deal more exegesis than the catechism does. In fact, the catechism is one of the ways in which the exegesis of the faith, including the deposit of faith in God’s Holy Word, is being carried out.
 
VonDerTann said:
  1. One item the protestants do well – the concept of the “church elders.” You have a marital problem? Go to the church elders, some of whom are married 40 years. Studies show that the 2 largest causes of spousal arguments are a) money and b) sex. It’s hard for Catholic clergy to really relate to, say, mortgage problems, when the Church pays no property tax and the rectory has no mortgage, It’s equally impossible for the Clergy to relate to sexual &marital problems when they are celibate, chase & unmarried. Those clergy are busy “tending to the flock,” and generally never (or seldom) are placed in situations where they must address, i.e., anti-catholic bosses; nasty neighbors; financial pressures; child rearing issues, etc.
So, sorry, I think SOME clergy are “out of touch” with the problems and issues us laity face daily.
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I agree with this part - to a point.

For example, this past Saturday, I felt the priest in the Confessional was a bit harsh with me. I really wish he completely knew the context (and the help I have recieved or what I’m thinking about doing, etc.). Without getting into private matters, sometimes one finds themselves in very delicate situations and it makes decisions harder. Not that I’m excusing my own behaviour.
 
GraceDK said:
I have met many people who live by the letter… they are fantastic at exegesis(?) and apologetics… they speak about “the Church” and “the teachings of the Church” etc…
but you hardly hear the word JESUS come out of their mouth…
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:amen:

So true, GraceDK! That truth reminds me of an article I read the other day. A seminarian had dealt with the same problem, and gradually let biblical exegesis take the place of a heart that follows Christ. Not that those things are unimportant, but Jesus should be the center of it all.

Here’s the link if you want to check it out: patheos.com/blogs/philosophicalfragments/2011/10/31/finding-jesus-again-at-seminary/
 
Geaux_LSU said:
:amen:

So true, GraceDK! That truth reminds me of an article I read the other day. A seminarian had dealt with the same problem, and gradually let biblical exegesis take the place of a heart that follows Christ. Not that those things are unimportant, but Jesus should be the center of it all.

Here’s the link if you want to check it out: patheos.com/blogs/philosophicalfragments/2011/10/31/finding-jesus-again-at-seminary/
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You do realize that the person who wrote that article is an evangelical protestant right? Just checking as that certainly changes ones understanding of the situation. At Catholic seminary, the students would be praying the Liturgy of the Hours several times per day plus frequent Mass. I would suspect that the ritual of prayer several times per day along with regular reception of Holy Communion would help prevent this to a large extent. A protestant seminarian, while they certainly would pray, would not be praying the Liturgy of the Hours and would also not have the grace which comes from frequent reception of the sacraments.

As for the rest of the comments along this topic, I absolutely agree that a personal relationship with our Blessed Lord must be the focus. From the perspective of the Dominican tradition, faith causes one to seek understanding through study, prayer, and contemplation, which causes one to love God. This love of God leads to wanting to study Him more deeply to love Him all the more. For many people, it is hard to love what they do not know. Thus, if significant time is not spent in studying, their faith will be luke-warm at best. This means, scripture, patristics, apologetics, the catechism, canon law, spirituality, etc. Now, don’t get me wrong, I am not suggesting it is necessary to study canon law. What I am suggesting is that the study of canon law, for some, is a way to know Christ more completely by understanding his mystical body, the Church.

Now, obviously, that does not describe the way everyone approaches developing a relationship with Christ. However, I think it is important to note that what may appear to be a bookish approach to faith on the part of some, may not be that at all. They might be totally on fire but study is the way they are coming to know our Lord better and thus, love Him all the more.

Finally, Geaux Tigers! My wife and I are both LSU grads and I actually coached with the football team for 3 years while I was in grad school.

Peace of Christ,
 
Geaux_LSU said:
:amen:

So true, GraceDK! That truth reminds me of an article I read the other day. A seminarian had dealt with the same problem, and gradually let biblical exegesis take the place of a heart that follows Christ. Not that those things are unimportant, but Jesus should be the center of it all.

Here’s the link if you want to check it out: patheos.com/blogs/philosophicalfragments/2011/10/31/finding-jesus-again-at-seminary/
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Thanks. Maybe I’ll check it out 🙂
Im not afraid of hearing and reading the testimonies of Protestants… Often when we read books about Catholic saints we read great stories, though stories about people far removed in time or vocation from us. I think Protestants are good at sharing testimonies… and this is a very good and Biblical thing. I have found that all Christians have great stories about healings, prophesy, visions and how God turned their lives around when they were most in need. Some were on the brink of suicide when Jesus came to them. Some saw Him quite vividly. In Evangelical Churches faithful members are allowed to share their stories… but in the Catholic churches only the priest speaks and if he is spiritually dry, the whole parish will become dry…

Priests will most often have a personal relationship with Jesus… but not all. Some here in Europe are very liberal and they demystify the Gospels.
I knew a priest - he is now dead- he went once on a pilgrimage to a marian schrine. There another priest prayed for him. He fell in the spirit, and while he was laying on the ground the Virgin Mary appeared to him and said: “Focus on my son! Focus on my Son!#” You see this priest loved Mary but was estranged from Jesus. After that experience the Holy Spirit gave him great love of Scripture. He started reading it alot and even his young students stopped their sinful behaviour and started bringing their Bibles to school… unfortunately, many local Catholics did not appreciate the “revival” and preferred that things continued the way they were… a big conflict came out of it.

In my country an old married Protestant couple travels around preaching the simple Gospel and praying for people. Jesus said to the man: “keep it simple, and I will bless it.” Tens of thousands have been blessed, come to believe and have been healed for every disease. I have been at these meetings many times, and always we see numerous people healed infront of my eyes. This is very faith-provoking… And oh how I long for the day where such gifts are practiced openly in the Catholic parishes too, like Paul says: “When you come together… one will have this gift and another that… all for the EDYFICATION of the parish”.
 
Pamm said:
Reading this thread has raised a question for me – indeed the Bible is inspired by God and passed on within Scriptures. Are we to understand the catechism also is inspired by God? Where in the Bible does it say this, if it is true?I am being sincere in my question here so please – no assaults.
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Hi Pamm,

I found a couple of quotes I thought might be of interest to you regarding your questions above. Whenever I have questions such as yours, I often wonder what very first Christians thought and said on the issue. In those times, I find it helpful and comforting to look at the writings of the Church Fathers.
St John Chrysostom:
Hence it is plain that the Apostles did not deliver to us everything by their epistles, but many things without writing. These are equally to be believed. Wherefore let us believe the tradition of the Church. It is tradition. Seek no further.
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St Irenaeus:
Supposing that the Apostles had left us nothing in writing, should we not still follow the rule of doctrine which they delivered to those to whom they entrusted the churches? This rule many barbarous nations follow, who, being without ink or parchment, have the word of salvation written by the Spirit in their hearts, and guard diligently the tradition which has been delivered.
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Peace of Christ,
 
Roy5 said:
Meanwhile, the continuing attacks on Obama could easily alienate many who are strong Democrats, many already alienated to some degree. It also hurts Catholic efforts to win converts among African-Americans.
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When a wrong is being committed, you attack it. Doesn’t matter who’s doing it. If you are going to not avoid attacking people because they bring more people in the door, you cease being a solid moral and one that follows the whim of the world. Which is something Christ said not to do.

What would really hurt people is not teaching God’s truth. Now that would cause them problems.
 
VonDerTann said:
It’s hard for Catholic clergy to really relate to, say, mortgage problems, when the Church pays no property tax and the rectory has no mortgage,
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Go to one finance committee meeting and you’ll see that they full well understand financial problems. And since many priests had to borrow a lot of money to get their degrees, and they don’t make a lot, they know it personally too. But honestly, if the issue is bad enough, a financial planner might be the next step.

I can see what you were saying on the point about sex, but that’s where a smart pastor does his part within the bounds of faith and morals and then refers them to a marriage counselor for further counseling if need be…

It’s like many issues in life, sometimes you need a specialist. If I come to my priest with anxiety issues, he’ll probably give me some suggestions. If that doesn’t work, and it’s clearly affecting my life, then it’s time for him to refer me to a psychologist.

A priest doesn’t need to be able to solve every problem because that’s not his job. When it goes beyond teaching and instructing in the faith and/or spiritual issues, then it’s time to forward that person to the proper specialist who can help them.
 
I go to a Catholic Christian church and I petsonally love it! The church is not supposed to adapt to popular current issues nor is it to tailor itself to be politically correct. Our teachings are in our bibles and we need to recognize that priests are tools to help us achieve holiness. However, I do think that more priests should take a lesson from ours at my parish… he has found a way to bring both old and young people together to make the most out of our masses. His homilies always have a purpose and discuss current issues in relation to what our bibles teach…
He has re-vamped our parish for the better… for example he had soon come to realize that many of our congregation knew very little about the bible stories and many have not even read the bible for themselves…so he had ordered over 2000 bibles and put them in the pews for bible study in the masses… he delivers power point presentations and presents short videos in his masses… he uses modern multimedia and has put a choir and a band in the church for Sunday mass… he has brought the LIFE and JOYof loving Christ back into the church and clearly explains our traditions and strives to educate and unite his congregation… if any one is interested we also have our own website which is www.stjw.ca … he also uploads his homlies on youtube… he has personally inspired me to be a better Christian and challenges the every persons ways of thinking… its not just about tradition with lack of message content anymore… he is a very smart man who has taught me so much… Please check out his homlies on the website, I guarantee you won’t be dissappointed!
 
Actually, I think the main problem with Church Leaders is that they are too much in touch with the culture.
 
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