Are the ECs "Orthodox who are in communion with Rome," or are they "Roman Catholics with an Orthodox Liturgy"?

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nickybr38 said:
But I’m not talking about Orthodoxy. I’m talking about a Catholic Church from the Eastern Rite?
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That is the big question now, really, isn’t it? Are the ECs “Orthodox who are in communion with Rome,” or are they “Roman Catholics with an Orthodox Liturgy”? And questions like this one bring out what the true character of the Eastern Catholic Churches are.
 
ConstantineTG said:
That is the big question now, really, isn’t it? Are the ECs “Orthodox who are in communion with Rome,” or are they “Roman Catholics with an Orthodox Liturgy”? And questions like this one bring out what the true character of the Eastern Catholic Churches are.
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What is the answer in your opinion?
 
nickybr38 said:
What is the answer in your opinion?
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I believe they are Roman Catholics with an Orthodox Liturgy. I believe externally they look like the Orthodox, but internally they are Roman Catholics. That is through my experience. Even with those who capture fully the externals of Orthodox worship, I don’t think you can be fully Orthodox through and through if you maintain communion with Rome and agree with the doctrines and dogmas that Orthodoxy disagree with.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I believe they are Roman Catholics with an Orthodox Liturgy. I believe externally they look like the Orthodox, but internally they are Roman Catholics. That is through my experience. Even with those who capture fully the externals of Orthodox worship, I don’t think you can be fully Orthodox through and through if you maintain communion with Rome and agree with the doctrines and dogmas that Orthodoxy disagree with.
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Right. And the rituals are really mixed. For example, I saw the schedule of a Byzantine Catholic parish that had a prayer vigil “for the Church and the Holy Father”. Vespers (orthodox), followed by the Rosary, then the Way of the Cross, then the Canon of Repentance (Orthodox), then “silent vigil/adoration”, then the Chaplet of Divine Mercy repeated at every hour until the morning Liturgy (the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom). They have Lectio Divina and meditations using the writings of Catholic saints (ex. Fray Luis de Granada), but they also have the Akathist of the Theotokos.

IMO for someone who knows and appreciates the Orthodox style of worship, to attend an Eastern Catholic Liturgy and to pray the Akathists or the Canon along and then the Rosary can be simply great and enriching; for someone who appreciates more the Orthodox theology and sees the Eastern Liturgy and prayers as an expression of the Orthodox theology, it can be a little deceiving, because Eastern Catholics aren’t Orthodox, but Catholic with historical Orthodox influences/reminiscences.
 
vames said:
Right. And the rituals are really mixed. For example, I saw the schedule of a Byzantine Catholic parish that had a prayer vigil “for the Church and the Holy Father”. Vespers (orthodox), followed by the Rosary, then the Way of the Cross, then the Canon of Repentance (Orthodox), then “silent vigil/adoration”, then the Chaplet of Divine Mercy repeated at every hour until the morning Liturgy (the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom). They have Lectio Divina and meditations using the writings of Catholic saints (ex. Fray Luis de Granada), but they also have the Akathist of the Theotokos.

IMO for someone who knows and appreciates the Orthodox style of worship, to attend an Eastern Catholic Liturgy and to pray the Akathists or the Canon along and then the Rosary can be simply great and enriching; for someone who appreciates more the Orthodox theology and sees the Eastern Liturgy and prayers as an expression of the Orthodox theology, it can be a little deceiving, because Eastern Catholics aren’t Orthodox, but Catholic with historical Orthodox influences/reminiscences.
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Remind me to stay away from that parish! :eek:
 
I don’t think that is necessarily wrong, but people have just got to be honest of who and what they are. To say that they are “Orthodox in communion with Rome” is not only a misnomer, it is dishonest. And I don’t see why some think it is offensive to say otherwise.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I don’t think that is necessarily wrong, but people have just got to be honest of who and what they are. To say that they are “Orthodox in communion with Rome” is not only a misnomer, it is dishonest. And I don’t see why some think it is offensive to say otherwise.
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Hey Constantine…were you being dishonest when you called yourself Orthodox in Communion with Rome, before your big switch to the OCA? Just asking. 🙂
 
UncleBill said:
Hey Constantine…were you being dishonest when you called yourself Orthodox in Communion with Rome, before your big switch to the OCA? Just asking. 🙂
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In the beginning I bought into that. The reason I became Orthodox was because I was searching for Orthodoxy in the Eastern Catholic Church and then I realized that Orthodoxy is only in the Orthodox Church.

I wasn’t being dishonest, but I was honestly mistaken 😉
 
ConstantineTG said:
In the beginning I bought into that. The reason I became Orthodox was because I was searching for Orthodoxy in the Eastern Catholic Church and then I realized that Orthodoxy is only in the Orthodox Church.

I wasn’t being dishonest, but I was honestly mistaken 😉
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I tend to disagree. Having worshiped and received the Holy Mysteries in both the Catholic Communion and the Orthodox Churches since the 1970’s (with the proper permissions from the bishops involved :)), I believe that the Church of Christ includes both the Catholics and Orthodox. I find nothing disingenuous in someone calling themselves Orthodox in Communion with Rome.

It also depends on where in the Eastern Churches you are looking. 😃

Just my :twocents:
 
UncleBill said:
I tend to disagree. Having worshiped and received the Holy Mysteries in both the Catholic Communion and the Orthodox Churches since the 1970’s (with the proper permissions from the bishops involved :)), I believe that the Church of Christ includes both the Catholics and Orthodox. I find nothing disingenuous in someone calling themselves Orthodox in Communion with Rome.

It also depends on where in the Eastern Churches you are looking. 😃

Just my :twocents:
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My opinion stems from that being Orthodox means you take in the entire life that is lived through the beliefs in Orthodoxy. Because ECs don’t completely agree with the Orthodox in all aspects, then they cannot be the same “save for communion with Rome.” There is a longer list of things that the ECs believe in or don’t believe in that the Orthodox do or don’t.
 
ConstantineTG said:
My opinion stems from that being Orthodox means you take in the entire life that is lived through the beliefs in Orthodoxy. Because ECs don’t completely agree with the Orthodox in all aspects, then they cannot be the same “save for communion with Rome.” There is a longer list of things that the ECs believe in or don’t believe in that the Orthodox do or don’t.
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Once again I disagree…I personally agree with everything the Orthodox Church teaches but choose to stay in communion with Rome. I have discussed this with a number of catholic bishops both Byzantine and Latin as well as a number of Orthodox bishops and Metropolitans, both here in the US and in Europe and the Middle East. Not one of the bishops had a problem with that…I am VERY sure there are more EC that believe the same way. Eventually in the reunited Church it will be this way. 😃
 
UncleBill said:
Once again I disagree…I personally agree with everything the Orthodox Church teaches but choose to stay in communion with Rome. I have discussed this with a number of catholic bishops both Byzantine and Latin as well as a number of Orthodox bishops and Metropolitans, both here in the US and in Europe and the Middle East. Not one of the bishops had a problem with that…I am VERY sure there are more EC that believe the same way. Eventually in the reunited Church it will be this way. 😃
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There are fundamental disagreements that you really can’t say you accept both. Fundamentally, you cannot accept everything the Orthodox teaches and choose to be in communion with Rome because a number of Orthodox beliefs specifically prevents them from being in communion with Rome.
 
ConstantineTG said:
There are fundamental disagreements that you really can’t say you accept both. Fundamentally, you cannot accept everything the Orthodox teaches and choose to be in communion with Rome because a number of Orthodox beliefs specifically prevents them from being in communion with Rome.
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Rubish!
 
Any Christian is considered an Orthodox or Apostolic Christian if he/she:
  1. Confesses the Holy Faith of the Apostles, and lives the Moral Life.
  2. Celebrates the Holy Mysteries.
  3. Is in Full and Canonical Communion with a Bishop in Apostolic Succession.
Those three points are all that is necessary for Orthodoxy/Apostolicity.

Catholics already subsume Orthodoxy/Apostolicity, since we already have those three points above, but we go a step further, in that, our Full and Canonical Communion with the Pope of Rome as the Head Bishop of the Body of Bishops elevates our already Orthodox and Apostolic status to a Catholic status.

So, I would say that all Catholics, not just the Easterns/Orientals, but Latins as well, are Orthodox and Apostolics in Communion with Rome! 😃

But in order not to offend the Eastern Orthodox, I prefer to just label myself as an Eastern Catholic. 🙂

God bless,

Rony
 
You guys… are very confusing… and as usual I struggle to know who to trust in these threads. LOL.

Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut. Guess it’s off to do extracurricular study now!
 
nickybr38 said:
You guys… are very confusing… and as usual I struggle to know who to trust in these threads. LOL.

Thanks for all the (name removed by moderator)ut. Guess it’s off to do extracurricular study now!
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It is confusing, and there are many opinions to it. Thing is, if you feel that whatever you’re getting from your EC parish is bringing you closer to God, then why worry? The whole reason where Christians is because we want to be with God and be saved from this fallen world.
 
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