Are the Jews still the chosen people?

[Moses613]

In my view, Jewish status has little to do with ethnicity, since as you stated, people (of any ethnicity) may convert. I define a Jew as someone who is properly converted or who is born to a Jewish mother. That said, there are Jews who are not “Jewish” since they have broken with Judaism.

 

[kainosktisis]

So they aren’t Jewish religiously, but still ethnically.

 

[ConstantLearner]

So they aren’t Jewish religiously, but still ethnically.

I’ve only had limited exposure to one community, the one my sister belongs to. Most of their members are ethnically Jewish, but they welcome Gentiles, too.

I would not say they are practicing Judaism, but they certainly seem to believe what they preach. It’s hard to see them as deceivers.

I do think it denigrates them to call them Protestant.

 

[kainosktisis]

Yes, but don’t Jews also welcome Gentile converts to the fold?

 

[ConstantLearner]

Sure, but they must study and go through a conversion process of sorts. Once converted, however, a Gentile becomes a Jew. Not ethnically, of course, but a Jew.

 

[kainosktisis]

@ConstantLearner @Moses613

Thank you for your replies. They’ve been enlightening. I hope my comments have not given rise to offense. I know we have our differences, but I welcome and appreciate your responses.

 

[ConstantLearner]

Thank you for your replies. They’ve been enlightening. I hope my comments have not given rise to offense. I know we have our differences, but I welcome and appreciate your responses.

I don’t know enough to be offended, and I don’t become offended easily, at any rate.

 

[ConstantLearner]

In my view, Jewish status has little to do with ethnicity, since as you stated, people (of any ethnicity) may convert. I define a Jew as someone who is properly converted or who is born to a Jewish mother. That said, there are Jews who are not “Jewish” since they have broken with Judaism.

I’m going to assume you’ve always practiced Judaism. For a long time I went with my father to Catholic mass. But I felt like an interloper. It was a lovely liturgy, but it wasn’t mine. despite my baptism. So, I stopped going.

But yes, I agree with you, to a point. An ethnic Jew is a Jew even if he is non-religious. Being Jewish is something that can’t be undone. But he is still lapsed religiously. All ethnic Jews should practice Orthodox Judaism. There’s no getting around that fact. I should be practicing it, and I am moving toward that.

To answer the original question, yes, the Jews are still God’s chosen people. The covenant with them will never be broken.

 

[BartholomewB]

The first churches were in a gentile region

You might want to look at a map of Greece and start pinning the cities where the churches are who Paul wrote his letters to. Have a nice day.

No, your chronology is wrong. The first church was almost entirely Jewish. Paul didn’t write his epistles till later.

At Pentecost, Paul hadn’t even converted yet.

Have a nice day while you read The Acts of the Apostles.

Originally a Jewish Christian community in Jerusalem, the church was placed in circumstances impelling it to include within its membership people of other cultures: the Samaritans (Acts 8:4-25), at first an occasional Gentile (Acts 8:26-30; 10:1-48), and finally the Gentiles on principle (Acts 11:20-21).

From the Introduction to the Acts of the Apostles in the NABRE edition, available online at the USCCB website.

Acts of the Apostles, THE ACTS OF THE APOSTLES | USCCB

 

[Moses613]

I was raised Jewish non-observant and have been practicing Orthodox Judaism for 15 years. I also have close family that are Roman Catholic, but not religious.

 

[ConstantLearner]

I was raised Jewish non-observant and have been practicing Orthodox Judaism for 15 years. I also have close family that are Roman Catholic, but not religious.

Thank you. I knew I shouldn’t presume. Apologies.

 

[jlhargus]

The Catholic Church is not the New Jerusalem.

Rv21: 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.]

If not the Catholic Church then what church is the bride of Christ?

 

[ConstantLearner]

If not the Catholic Church then what church is the bride of Christ?

I did not write the below. I wish I were that educated! I am not!

This conception of the new Jerusalem as messiah’s bride in the latter days is an original touch, added by the prophet to the traditional Jewish material (cf. Volz, 336 f.). In 4 Esd. 6:26 (Lat. Syr.) “the bride shall appear, even the city coming forth, and she shall be seen who is now hidden from the earth”; but this precedes the 400 years of bliss, at the close of which messiah dies. In En. xc. 28 f. a new and better house is substituted for the old, while in 4 Esd. 9–11. the mourning mother rather suddenly becomes “a city builded” with large foundations (i.e., Zion). These partial anticipations lend some colour to Dalman’s plea that the conception of a pre-existent heavenly Jerusalem was extremely limited in Judaism, and that John’s vision is to be isolated from the other N.T. hints (see reff.). For a fine application of the whole passage, see Ecce Homo, ch. 24. The vision conveys Christian hope and comfort in terms of a current and ancient religious tradition upon the new Jerusalem (cf. Charles on Apoc. Bar. iv. 3). The primitive form of this conception, which lasted in various phases down to the opening of the second century, was that the earthly Jerusalem simply needed to be purified in order to become the fit and final centre of the messianic realm with its perfect communion between God and man (cf. Isaiah 60; Isaiah 54:11= Tob 13:16-17, Ezekiel 40-48, En. x. 16–19, xxv. 1, Ps. Sol. 17:25, 33, Ap. Bar. xxix, xxxix.–xl, lxxii, lxxiv, 4 Esd. 7:27–30, 12:32–34, etc.). But alongside of this, especially after the religious revival under the Maccabees, ran the feeling that the earthly Jerusalem was too stained and secular to be a sacred city; its heavenly counterpart, pure and pre-existent, must descend (so here, after En. xc. 28, 29, Ap. Bar. xxxii. 3, 4, Test. Daniel 5, etc.). In rabbinic theology, the vision of the heavenly Jerusalem was taken from Adam after his lapse, but shown as a special favour to Abraham, Jacob and Moses (cf. Ap. Bar. iv). The Christian prophet John not only sees it but sees it realised among Christian people—a brave and significant word of prophecy, in view of his age and surroundings.

 

[God_Is_So_Great]

These videos provide a broad summary of Revelation, and somewhere quickly describes The New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem isn’t the Catholic Church, or any specific denominations.

 

[mcq72]

Correct, it is understood for Catholics and Christians but not sure it is a declaration of peity but of the/a belief in itself. Her possible mistake was reacting to one also stating the obvious (that Jews await the Messiah, but perhaps not so obvious, for indeed some believe He has come, in Jesus).

But we agree in not needing to state obvious in prosyletizing fashion but I welcome any clarification on the Messiah matter from any Jewish poster here on CAF.

 

[mcq72]

The stealth reference was to the idea of disguising Christianity with Jewish trappings and verbiage in order to convert Jews who might otherwise be alienated by missionizing.

Understand your perspective. From our perspective the two sides are naturally cohesive, not mutually exclusive. It’s like football players or jocks using jock jargon to attract fellow sportsters, or x drugsters, or bikers or truckdrivers using their perspective backgrounds to share their faith with their kind. Our saying is “to become all things to all men so that some might be saved”, or “subtle as a serpent but harmless as a dove”.

Again, from our perspective one can be genuinely Christian and Jewish at same time. My understanding is that these outreaches are started or led by Jewish converts to “Christianity”.

Yet I think I understand your sentiments, for I was once also at odds with Christianity and their proselytizing etc., etc. (all of it).

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

After having spent more than 20 years in Messianic Judaism, I understand the Jewish people believe that if a Jew comes to Jesus, then he/she is no longer Jewish; but Messianic Jews would disagree with this and would say that Y’shua is the Messiah, and what could be more Jewish than to believe on the one who was promised and the one who was sent.

Messianic Jews have come to believe based on Y’shua’s fulfillment of scripture. Many have had no contact with “missionaries” whatsoever, but came to believe by a revelation through reading their own scripture.

Verses such as:

– Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2/Matthew 2:1-6)

– Rejected by his own people (Isaiah 53:1,3; Psalm 118:22)

– Tried and condemned for the transgression of the people (Isaiah 53:7&8)

– Your king comes to you humble and riding on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9/Matthew 21:5)

– This is just a very, very small sample. (And of course there are arguments against this interpretation from main-stream Judaism.)

Sometime before Jesus came, the Rabbis classified miracles into two different categories: miracles that anyone could perform and miracles that only the Messiah could perform. These Messianic Miracles were based on Isaiah 35:5-6. It is recorded that Jesus performed all these miracles: He healed Jews with leprosy, he healed those born blind from birth, he cast out dumb spirits, and he raised the dead after 3 days (referring to Lazarus) (see The Four Messianic Miracles) There were certain miracles which he performed which he told the one who was healed, “Go and show yourself to the Priest.” These were the miracles that only the Messiah could preform. Jesus was trying to tell them that He was the One.

If a Jewish person comes to Y’shua Jesus, then he/she would join the ranks with hundreds of thousands of Jewish people world-wide from all walks of life–Rabbis, Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Hassidic, who have come to believe also. They would say that they have not defected from Judaism, but have come to its fulfillment.

 

[Masihi]

The Jews were never God’s chosen people, it has always been the Church, the Jews for a time were merely made to bear the Church, they were never God’s chosen people in the first place.

 

[Moses613]

The Jews were never God’s chosen people, it has always been the Church, the Jews for a time were merely made to bear the Church, they were never God’s chosen people in the first place.

So then you disbelieve God’s own words that He choose the seed of Abraham, the children of Israel. Your choice.

 

[Masihi]

The seed of Abraham is the Church which is now vested in all Christians Jews and Gentiles. It doesn’t mean Abraham’s literal descendants.