Are the rich more virtuous than the poor?

[Bubba_Switzler]

But this virtuous culture—a highly cohesive, self-confident culture defined by strong families, faith in God, untiring industriousness, and an almost instinctive law-abidingness—is increasingly endangered today, and it is that danger that is the focus of Coming Apart. Through exhaustive empirical analysis—sifting through census statistics, decades of public opinion surveys, and mountains of other social science data—Murray systematically demonstrates that the commitment to each of those virtues has faded in American life, and that it has faded in very different ways for our upper class (which Murray defines as roughly those with college degrees and mid- to upper-level white-collar jobs) and our lower class (those without college degrees and blue-collar or low-level white-collar jobs, if any), who now have far less in common than they used to.

“America is coming apart at the seams,” Murray writes, “not seams of race or ethnicity, but of class.”

That evidence does not explain itself, of course, and Murray is careful to be modest about analyzing causes—“I focus on what happened, not why”—and although he describes a sharp divergence between Americans at the top and the bottom, he does not actually describe this transformation in terms of growth in inequality, but rather in terms of a decline in the broadly shared practice of crucial American virtues.

Indeed, his careful laying-out of the facts raises some serious questions about whether the process he describes is even properly understood in terms of differences between the top and bottom. It would seem, rather, to be above all a description of the collapse of cultural and moral norms at the bottom and of the growing cultural isolation of the top. Both may be worrisome trends, but surely not of comparable importance, and in Murray’s description—just as in the arguments of those most concerned about economic inequality in our time—the precise connection between what is happening at the top and at the bottom is often far from clear.

weeklystandard.com/articles/mind-gap_633403.html

Although Charles Murray has studied American, not Catholic virtues, I think it is still worth asking: What if it really is the case that the poor are primarily suffering from bad moral choices and that efforts over the last century to relieve their suffering have only served to create the very moral hazards that have led them to make these bad moral choices?

 

[Schism_hater]

weeklystandard.com/articles/mind-gap_633403.html

Although Charles Murray has studied American, not Catholic virtues, I think it is still worth asking: What if it really is the case that the poor are primarily suffering from bad moral choices and that efforts over the last century to relieve their suffering have only served to create the very moral hazards that have led them to make these bad moral choices?

I’ll bet Dives said the same thing to himself when he saw Lazarus begging at his door. We all know where Dives is now.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I’ll bet Dives said the same thing to himself when he saw Lazarus begging at his door. We all know where Dives is now.

Do you really believe that Charles Murray is suggesting that we turn away beggars at our door?

 

[jmcrae]

I think the poor are actually more likely to obey the law, uphold moral virtues, and become as well educated as they can afford to be.

The rich can get away with their sins; the poor cannot. If a poor man is caught speeding, he goes to jail; if a rich man is caught speeding, he pays a fine. So the poor are a lot less likely to speed than the rich. I’m sure it’s the same with everything else - if you can get away with something, you are more likely to do it than not.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I think the poor are actually more likely to obey the law, uphold moral virtues, and become as well educated as they can afford to be.

The rich can get away with their sins; the poor cannot. If a poor man is caught speeding, he goes to jail; if a rich man is caught speeding, he pays a fine. So the poor are a lot less likely to speed than the rich. I’m sure it’s the same with everything else - if you can get away with something, you are more likely to do it than not.

Charles Murray, who has spent his life studying this subject, seems to have come to a different conclusion. What do you think accounts for the difference between your observations and his?

 

[jmcrae]

Charles Murray, who has spent his life studying this subject, seems to have come to a different conclusion. What do you think accounts for the difference between your observations and his?

Perhaps he is looking at the numbers of poor people vs. rich people in jail. But a rich person can simply pay for the damages and avoid going to court altogether (thus, his transgression is never recorded), or simply pay a fine and stay out of jail, where the poor person doesn’t have that option - he can’t pay damages, and he can’t pay fines, because he has no money with which to do so, so he has to go to jail.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Perhaps he is looking at the numbers of poor people vs. rich people in jail. But a rich person can simply pay for the damages and avoid going to court altogether (thus, his transgression is never recorded), or simply pay a fine and stay out of jail, where the poor person doesn’t have that option - he can’t pay damages, and he can’t pay fines, because he has no money with which to do so, so he has to go to jail.

No, it seems pretty clear from the book review I referenced above that he is looking at things like marriage, out of wedlock births, drug and alcohol abuse, and similar behaviors of more signifiance than obeying speed limits.

(And I’m not familiar with anyone who has ever been sent to jail for speeding alone. Is that common in Canada?)

 

[jmcrae]

No, it seems pretty clear from the book review I referenced above that he is looking at things like marriage, out of wedlock births, drug and alcohol abuse, and similar behaviors of more signifiance than obeying speed limits.

How would anyone know whether a rich person were doing these things? We know that the poor are doing them, because the poor live in crowded conditions and don’t get much privacy. The rich can do anything they want behind closed doors, and who would ever know? But every time I pick up an American magazine, it’s not the poor I’m reading about, with their out of wedlock births and their messy divorces, and their rehabs. They all seem to be American millionaires.

(And I’m not familiar with anyone who has ever been sent to jail for speeding alone. Is that common in Canada?)

If someone can’t pay a fine, he goes to jail, yes. It’s not all that common because most people pay their fines, and those who can’t simply don’t break the law.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

How would anyone know whether a rich person were doing these things? We know that the poor are doing them, because the poor live in crowded conditions and don’t get much privacy. The rich can do anything they want behind closed doors, and who would ever know?

I see, so your belief is that the rich are doing these things as much or more than the poor but we just don’t see it because they are more private about it.

But shouldn’t we then notice poor virtuous behavior more than rich virtuous behavior?

If someone can’t pay a fine, he goes to jail, yes. It’s not all that common because most people pay their fines, and those who can’t simply don’t break the law.

In most cases people who can’t pay a fine traffic infractions are given community service instead. But maybe it’s different in Canada.

 

[jmcrae]

I see, so your belief is that the rich are doing these things as much or more than the poor but we just don’t see it because they are more private about it.

But shouldn’t we then notice poor virtuous behavior more than rich virtuous behavior?

Of course. Virtuous behaviour is people going about their daily lives without getting into trouble. I should think that the vast majority of people, regardless of class, are doing exactly that.

In most cases people who can’t pay a fine traffic infractions are given community service instead. But maybe it’s different in Canada.

Young offenders do community service in addition to time spent in a juvenile facility. I never heard of adults doing community service in lieu of paying a fine or jail time.

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

Why asked a promoter of the conservative/libertarian ideology such a question as “Are the rich more virtuous than the poor?”

What do you think he’s going to say? They ALL say the same thing, over and over again. They control the lion’s share of the world’s wealth. They don’t want to share. So, they need political and religious ideologies to justify their greediness, and to fight off taxes and and regulations.

Charles Murray is a mere human being, who, in a couple years, will be utterly forgotten by everyone on the earth (just as will I, and most of you too).

Why not ask The LORD OF THE UNIVERSE?

Our LORD JESUS CHRIST, who has not be forgotten for 2,000 years, and who will never be forgotten, said:

Luke 6:20-21 Then he looked up at his disciples and said: 'Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.

'Blessed are you who are hungry now, for you will be filled. 'Blessed are you who weep now, for you will laugh.

Luke 4:16-19 'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to bring good news to the poor.

Matthew 25:34-36 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for** I was hungry and you gave me food**, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing…”

Mark 10:21-22 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

Mark 12:41-44 He sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the crowd putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which are worth a penny. 43 Then he called his disciples and said to them, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. 44** For all of them have contributed out of their abundance**; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”

Luke 14:12-14 He said also to the one who had invited him, “When you give a luncheon or a dinner, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, in case they may invite you in return, and you would be repaid. But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

Luke 16:19-25 "**There was a rich man **who was dressed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,… But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in agony.

Luke 12:16-21 Then he told them a parable: “The land of a rich man produced abundantly. And he thought to himself, ‘What should I do, for I have no place to store my crops?’ Then he said, 'I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, ‘Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; relax, eat, drink, be merry.’ But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life is being demanded of you. And the things you have prepared, whose will they be?’ So it is with those who store up treasures for themselves but are not rich toward God.”

The official Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Church founded and safeguarded by the LORD OF THE UNIVERSE says:

2448 "In its various forms - material deprivation, unjust oppression, physical and psychological illness and death - human misery is the obvious sign of the inherited condition of frailty and need for salvation in which man finds himself as a consequence of original sin. This misery elicited the compassion of Christ the Savior, who willingly took it upon himself and identified himself with the least of his brethren. Hence, those who are oppressed by poverty are the object of a preferential love on the part of the Church*** which, since her origin and in spite of the failings of many of her members, has not ceased to work for their relief, defense, and liberation through numerous works of charity which remain indispensable always and everywhere."*

There are many in politics who hate all these teachings of CHRIST and THE CHURCH.

Many prefer the teachings of thinkers as AYN RAND, who promoted a ruthless pursuit of self interest. It is shocking to me so see many professing Christians and Catholics are big fans of Ayn Rand and her self-confessed disciples such as Alan Greenspan.

It is easy to bash the poor, since they don’t control many radio stations, TV stations, newspapers, or universities.

I’ve known many poor, many working class, many middle class, and many in the upper (“rich”) classes, and I’ve seen the same level of virtue and vice in all the classes.

The rich don’t sin less. They just hide it better, at least from their fellow human beings on earth.

From the eyes of Heaven they can hide nothing.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Why asked a promoter of the conservative/libertarian ideology such a question as “Are the rich more virtuous than the poor?”

What do you think he’s going to say? They ALL say the same thing, over and over again. They control the lion’s share of the world’s wealth. They don’t want to share. So, they need political and religious ideologies to justify their greediness, and to fight off taxes and and regulations.

Charles Murray is a mere human being, who, in a couple years, will be utterly forgotten by everyone on the earth (just as will I, and most of you too).

So your explanation is that Charles Murray is mistaken in his observations? You don’t believe that Charles Murray is taking a dispassionate scientific view of the facts?

It is easy to bash the poor, since they don’t control many radio stations, TV stations, newspapers, or universities.

It’s not my impression that Charles Murray is bashing the poor (or advocating turning beggars away at the door). In fact, as the book review noted, he’s not really suggesting anything at all, just showing what the data reveal about the state of American society and class divisions.

It’s probably fair to say that the book reviewer is bashing those who use the poor.

 

[kama3]

“It is not the consciousness of men that determines their being, but, on the contrary, their social being that determines their consciousness.” ― Karl Marx

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Of course. Virtuous behaviour is people going about their daily lives without getting into trouble. I should think that the vast majority of people, regardless of class, are doing exactly that.

I should hope so, but, to take one example, out of wedlock births are growing at an alarming rate. Is it your contention that the distribition of out of wedlock births is equal between the poor and the rich?

Young offenders do community service in addition to time spent in a juvenile facility. I never heard of adults doing community service in lieu of paying a fine or jail time.

It’s pretty common here in the case of traffic infractions. Usually when people go to jail it’s because they ignored a court summons. I’ve never heard of anyone going to jail for an inability to pay a traffic fine.

 

[Nicko]

The rich don’t sin less. They just hide it better, at least from their fellow human beings on earth.

An famous quote from Anatole France:

“How noble the law, in its majestic equality, that both the rich and poor are equally prohibited from peeing in the streets, sleeping under bridges, and stealing bread!”

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

An famous quote from Anatole France:

“How noble the law, in its majestic equality, that both the rich and poor are equally prohibited from peeing in the streets, sleeping under bridges, and stealing bread!”

Nice one!

 

[jmcrae]

I should hope so, but, to take one example, out of wedlock births are growing at an alarming rate. Is it your contention that the distribition of out of wedlock births is equal between the poor and the rich?

In my work with youth, I’ve seen more rich girls get pregnant than poor girls - but the rich girls go away on trips during the final months of pregnancy, and have their children quietly put up for adoption - their friends at home are none the wiser. Poor girls don’t get to go on trips, and nobody adopts their kids - they’re pregnant right in front of God and everybody, and then they quit school to raise their child at home.

 

[Peggy_in_Burien]

In my work with youth, I’ve seen more rich girls get pregnant than poor girls - but the rich girls go away on trips during the final months of pregnancy, and have their children quietly put up for adoption - their friends at home are none the wiser. Poor girls don’t get to go on trips, and nobody adopts their kids - they’re pregnant right in front of God and everybody, and then they quit school to raise their child at home.

When I am on the buses, which are crowded to standing room only, I’ve noted that it is not the young, college man who gets up for an elderly lady or the pregnant mother with a child in her arms, it is almost invariably the ragged, homeless gentlemen who will give up their seats.

 

[jmcrae]

When I am on the buses, which are crowded to standing room only, I’ve noted that it is not the young, college man who gets up for an elderly lady or the pregnant mother with a child in her arms, it is almost invariably the ragged, homeless gentlemen who will give up their seats.

I’ve noticed that, too. It’s one reason why I enjoy volunteering at the homeless shelter - the men are so very polite, and openly grateful for even the smallest favours.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

In my work with youth, I’ve seen more rich girls get pregnant than poor girls - but the rich girls go away on trips during the final months of pregnancy, and have their children quietly put up for adoption - their friends at home are none the wiser. Poor girls don’t get to go on trips, and nobody adopts their kids - they’re pregnant right in front of God and everybody, and then they quit school to raise their child at home.

You do understand, don’t you, that those who study subjects such as out of wedlock births are not relying on observations of pregnant girls but on public birth records. Or are the rich hiding this as well?