Are the rich more virtuous than the poor?

[Matilda_Bennett]

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[keeponkeepingon]

Actually, I believe there is a strong argument that the poor are more likely to be more virtuous than the rich.

I think this can be illustrated quite nicely with comparison between Stowe’s Uncle Tom’s Cabin and Negro Spirituals from the same kind of period. Witness how Stowe’s text, accidentally or otherwise, promotes that slaves must be evangelised to be worthy of freeing. Her text can be read as arguing that white slaveowners have a duty to instil their slaves with white, Christian values in order to elevate them. Negro Spirituals, on the other hand, tend to deal with a personal relationship with God, a wish to go to heaven after death and so on. So, here, the rich are finding themselves buying into a belief of racial superiority and judgment. The poor in this comparison are not erring in the same way.

 

[Lochias]

Just out of curiosity, has your Church also designated your family as “too poor to help?”

Not to my knowledge. One of our local parish priests did what he could and obtained some medicine and diabetic supplies for my mother when we asked about help, but that’s all he could do.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Not to my knowledge. One of our local parish priests did what he could and obtained some medicine and diabetic supplies for my mother when we asked about help, but that’s all he could do.

I was thinking more of the congregation. Most parishes organize some sort of informal help.

 

[jmcrae]

Well, let’s look at the two points in greater detail, then.

It can’t be the case that climing out of poverty without help is as impossible as you suggest because people have been climbing out of poverty since time immemorial. The main means that people climb out of poverty is through hard work of one sort of another.

Typically, at jobs given to them by friends or family members to assist them in getting out of poverty. I’ve never known a person with less than good credit to start a business and succeed without lots of freebies from friends and family members to get them going - unless they rob a bank to get the start-up cash, of course.

Yes, it’s their own hard work that gets them out of poverty, but without being given the work to do by someone who wants to give them a chance, they would have nothing to work hard at, to get out of poverty with.

 

[Nicko]

It is indeed an interesting discussion as to whether those at the bottom end of the socio-economic scale are responsible for their condition, or victims of an unfair system. Both sides have good arguments and - IMHO - the truth is somewhere in between.

There is, however, no ambiguity whatsoever as to what the Christian position is. Christ was somewhat vague about some things, did not mention others, but one thing he did make his position crystal clear on was the issue of wealth vs. poverty.

Every single time Christ is supposed to have commented on morality in the context of economics he is shown as coming down on the side of the poor.

Every.

Single.

Time.

Bubba, I am sorry to put this so bluntly, but if you are saying that the rich are inherently more virtuous than the poor, you are saying that Christ was wrong.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Typically, at jobs given to them by friends or family members to assist them in getting out of poverty. I’ve never known a person with less than good credit to start a business and succeed without lots of freebies from friends and family members to get them going - unless they rob a bank to get the start-up cash, of course.

I think you’re wrong on both counts. On the matter of jobs, there are many entry level positions including, of course, our notorious friends at McDonalds. What is required to hold down a job at a fast food restaurant? Basically showing up on time and doing what you’re told.

On the second point, most small businesses don’t require loans to start while obviously some businesses require huge capital outlays. I know many people who have started companies with nothing but their determination to succeed.

Yes, it’s their own hard work that gets them out of poverty, but without being given the work to do by someone who wants to give them a chance, they would have nothing to work hard at, to get out of poverty with.

I think we all agree that a vibrant private economy is essential to affording opportunities to the poor. What Charles Murray is saying, essentially, is that something is required of the poor as well and that recent trends are worrisome in this regard.

 

[jmcrae]

It is always instructive to watch the how immigrants from genuinely poor countries do when they come to America, for example.

Of course, the free language classes and the new-business grants have nothing at all to do with it … (Locals have to take out loans from the bank, which need to be paid back. “Grants” are sums of money that don’t have to be repaid.)

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Every single time Christ is supposed to have commented on morality in the context of economics he is shown as coming down on the side of the poor…
Bubba, I am sorry to put this so bluntly, but if you are saying that the rich are inherently more virtuous than the poor, you are saying that Christ was wrong.

Well, this argument has been put forward by many but since your’s is the most charitable so far I’ll take a moment to respond.

First, it’s important to understand the context of Christ’s techings. The Jews to whom he was speaking believed that wealth was a sign of God’s grace and that poverty and affliction was a sign of curse. Jesus, in many parables and teachings, turned that perception upside down.

But the essential question is this: was Christ teaching that poverty is a sign of God’s blessing? If so, why are we trying to help people out of poverty? Was he teaching that poverty is a sign of grace irrespective of all else? That’s hard to square with common sense because poor people sin all the time.

The most reasonable interpretation was that Christ was simply countering the prevailing view that good fortune in life equals holiness.

Also, I have already pointed to the difference between the plight of the poor in 1C AD Judea and the situation of the poor in modern America. While the Jews were beter that most ancient people they were not as charitable as Christ demanded. It’s also hard to find an example of Christ coming to the aid of young, able-bodied, healthy men who simply chose not to work because such was unthinkable in those days.

Finally, I will (gently) direct you to the OP where I made the distinction between Catholic holiness and “American” (or worldly) virtues like hard work and diligent study. The later is the virtues that concern Murray. And while such virtues may not be tought at CCD, I defy anyone to show me where the Church is the least bit hostile to them. I fondly recall the demands of sisters, brothers, and priests where I attended school that I work harder and study more diligently.

 

[jmcrae]

I think we all agree that a vibrant private economy is essential to affording opportunities to the poor.

Absolutely - this is where we have other people (employers) helping their employees to get out of poverty. Nobody “does it alone.” At the absolute minimum, you need an employer, and/or you need at least 50 repeating customers.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Of course, the free language classes and the new-business grants have nothing at all to do with it … (Locals have to take out loans from the bank, which need to be paid back. “Grants” are sums of money that don’t have to be repaid.)

My grandparents didn’t get no free language classes. They learned English on their own.

 

[jmcrae]

My grandparents didn’t get no free language classes. They learned English on their own.

Evidently.

 

[graciew]

It’s also hard to find an example of Christ coming to the aid of young, able-bodied, healthy men who simply chose not to work because such was unthinkable in those days.
.

I´m back cause this does not seem to concern Murray´s book.
Well… Jesus asked their apostles to “leave” their jobs.and He could have stayed at home as a carpenter…If it was unthinkable,he did the unthinkable…
How would this fit?

 

[cynic]

It’s true that noble behaviour creates favourable circumstances were a person is more likely to be financially secure. On the other hand those born into money probably lead less, not more regulated lives.

 

[Lochias]

I was thinking more of the congregation. Most parishes organize some sort of informal help.

Such as?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I´m back cause this does not seem to concern Murray´s book.
Well… Jesus asked their apostles to “leave” their jobs.and He could have stayed at home as a carpenter…If it was unthinkable,he did the unthinkable…
How would this fit?

Sorry, no, he was calling them to a different sort of work (one that would turn out to be even more demanding, ultimately demanding their lives).

It’s more than a stretch to compare the growing unemployment among the poor with the work of the apostles.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Such as?

Every parish is different so I can’t really say other than that you should look into it.

 

[Lochias]

Every parish is different so I can’t really say other than that you should look into it.

Well, we did, and the priest helped in return. Our own parish is poor, with a largely transient congregation, and so the priest dipped into his own personal funds out of the kindness of his heart.

Gotta love all that wonderful help in this country of ours, eh? The rich largely do nothing, or do it ineffectually, and the poor get poorer.

 

[graciew]

Sorry, no, he was calling them to a different sort of work (one that would turn out to be even more demanding, ultimately demanding their lives).

It’s more than a stretch to compare the growing unemployment among the poor with the work of the apostles.

I am following your premises that it was unthinkable at that time.
So the unthinkable regardless their motive was severly punished.
The pharisees were to teach them virtous thinking,but would not take their places.
Why would Jesus disregard being economically productive?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I am following your premises that it was unthinkable at that time.
So the unthinkable regardless their motive was severly punished. The pharisees were to teach them virtous thinking,but would not take their places. Why would Jesus disregard being economically productive?

Jesus didn’t teach sloth. And we don’t need to appeal to the apostles for examples of valid life choices that don’t involve bringing home a paycheck. Consider, instead, the ordinary housewife.