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Crusaderbear
Guest
I think the plot line requires them to be on that fine line between machine and self aware. It allows to audience that aha moment when a machine is suddenly more humane than a human.
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twf
Guest
There’s nothing wrong with delving into the world building details of a fictional universe. Its a participation in sub-creation and a very Catholic activity. Read Tolkien’s essay “On Faerie Stories”.
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twf
Guest
If they are truly conscious (and they sure seem that way), then they are essentially slaves. The fact that the humans and other organic races aren’t outraged by this is a shame.
Star Trek played with this. In Voyager, the Emergency Medical Hologram program was left running so long that he developed his own personality and then argued and fought for his rights as a “being” under Federation law. They also played with this in regards to Data in Next Gen.
In a recent episode of Doctor Who, the Doctor reprimanded his companion Bill for her instant dismissal of machines as non-sentient / non-beings. Of course the TARDIS itself is shown to be alive and conscious in a sense…though we are also told that a TARDIS is grown, not constructed.
Star Trek played with this. In Voyager, the Emergency Medical Hologram program was left running so long that he developed his own personality and then argued and fought for his rights as a “being” under Federation law. They also played with this in regards to Data in Next Gen.
In a recent episode of Doctor Who, the Doctor reprimanded his companion Bill for her instant dismissal of machines as non-sentient / non-beings. Of course the TARDIS itself is shown to be alive and conscious in a sense…though we are also told that a TARDIS is grown, not constructed.
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tomarin
Guest
Yes, I thought of that too (the slavery issue). Of course, slavery of organic beings exists in the more lawless parts of the Star Wars universe so perhaps it’s too much to ask that they recognize the rights of droids.
One thing that strikes me as I rewatch some of these movies is how nice and companionable Luke Skywalker is to his droids, especially R2, even though I wouldn’t think it is strictly necessary (unless the droids really are sentient, or on that ‘fine line.’)
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Nigel7
Guest
I think Lucas wanted people to like his lovable little droids and for people to buy many many C-3PO and R2D2 action figures.
Droids are treated often as 2nd class citizens in those movies. Lucas made a point to de-humanize them from time to time.
Mimicking consciousness is not actual consciousness.
Droids are treated often as 2nd class citizens in those movies. Lucas made a point to de-humanize them from time to time.
Mimicking consciousness is not actual consciousness.
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xNoOnex
Guest
George Lucas was clearly in the third camp, but the expanded universe really hasn’t left the second.
While droids in the Star Wars universe have personalities and sometimes, their personalities make little sense from a real world standpoint, they are never really show to be sapient. In fact, it almost seems to go out of its way to claim otherwise… No one, not even droids, seem to care about “droid rights”.
Sure, some people are rather personable to their droids… But we’re personable to our pets, too. How many people already talk to their dog or cat like its a person?
While droids in the Star Wars universe have personalities and sometimes, their personalities make little sense from a real world standpoint, they are never really show to be sapient. In fact, it almost seems to go out of its way to claim otherwise… No one, not even droids, seem to care about “droid rights”.
Sure, some people are rather personable to their droids… But we’re personable to our pets, too. How many people already talk to their dog or cat like its a person?
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LVCIVS_DEI
Guest
Hmmm, well the spirituality in Star wars is nihilistic anyways, so why should that matter?
When you die you are basicly digested by “the force”…
(Unless you have a lot of power, which you have to be born with)
And EWWWWWW!!!
When you die you are basicly digested by “the force”…
(Unless you have a lot of power, which you have to be born with)
And EWWWWWW!!!
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tomarin
Guest
I’m inclined to have some ‘DROID RIGHTS NOW’ bumper stickers printed up.
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tomarin
Guest
It’s pantheism, so not strictly nihilistic.Hmmm, well the spirituality in Star wars is nihilistic anyways, so why should that matter?
When you die you are basicly digested by “the force”…
And EWWWWWW!!!
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LVCIVS_DEI
Guest
Why not?
Your soul is basicly digested.
You become part of the force against your will and your just gone.
Its like being eaten.
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tomarin
Guest
That’s my starting point as well, but isn’t it possible that as the mimicry becomes more and more sophisticated, consciousness is reached at some point? That consciousness is a gradual spectrum rather than a bright dividing line?
Or is it simply that all machines are non-thinking, although they can calculate much faster than we can. This is what allows computers to play chess at very high levels of proficiency. Whereas the human mind relies on pattern recognition, the computer simply calculates every possible move - because they can - and picks the best one.
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tomarin
Guest
Well simply because pantheism is a kind of theism, therefore it’s not true to say it posits a universe of nothing (nihilism). If it’s theistic it posits that there is God, not nothingness.Why not?
Your soul is basicly digested.
You become part of the force against your will and your just gone.
Its like being eaten.
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Wesrock
Guest
And quite simply it’s not that some external thing absorbs you in this situation. Your substance came from God (as in it is of God’s substance, not created from nothing) and returns to God. It’s like the portion that made you was a portion of God that was on vacation but then went home. It’s not some external devouring beast or an atheistic world.
That’s not to say I believe in such a thing, but it’s not nihilism.
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LVCIVS_DEI
Guest
But in Star Wars there is no God.
The force is more like a form of energy, like gravity or light.
And it does not think, it did not create anything, and it is cold and heartless.
(Its why I would never willingly go to an ecumenical meeting with Taoists or Buddhists, which is why I hope my dreams are just a fantasy or a metaphor.
)
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tomarin
Guest
If it’s pantheistic, there is a god it’s simply not God as we think of him. God and the universe are one (the pantheists say) or God and nature are one. These are the people who consider hiking in the mountains as equivalent to going to church on Sunday because they find God in nature.But in Star Wars there is no God.
The force is more like a form of energy, like gravity or light.
And it does not think, it did not create anything, and it is cold and heartless.
(Its why I would never willingly go to an ecumenical meeting with Taoists or Buddhists, which is why I hope my dreams are just a fantasy or a metaphor.
Anyway I could be wrong that Star Wars is pantheistic but it certainly seems so at times.
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tomarin
Guest
I don’t think it’s nihilistic either, unless the Force is some mechanistic physical property which I think is what Lucius is saying.
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LVCIVS_DEI
Guest
But there is no afterlife, you are just gone.
And nothing you did or believed will have mattered, innocent children massacred by brutal beats are just gone, so there is no morality, justice, kindness, charity, or love.
Just a cold dark oblivion, except for a chosen few, who manipulate the rest into doing their bidding, only caring about their own eternal existence.
Cold, dark, heartless, indifference.
Is that not nihilistic?
Its my definition of evil regardless.
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TechieGuy
Guest
All my machines work better when I’m nicer to them.
I don’t think they are sentient, but I suspect they have some sort of ch’i.
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LVCIVS_DEI
Guest
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Wesrock
Guest
The Force is, to my understanding, seen as God in the Star Wars galaxy. It inspires religious devotion. People seek to do its will. It might not interact with intelligent people the same way God as understood by Judeo-Christians does, but it’s not just cold or mechanical, insofar as I understand it.But in Star Wars there is no God.
The force is more like a form of energy, like gravity or light.
And it does not think, it did not create anything, and it is cold and heartless.
(Its why I would never willingly go to an ecumenical meeting with Taoists or Buddhists, which is why I hope my dreams are just a fantasy or a metaphor.
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