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catholic1seeks
Guest
A lot of things come out of Rome.
In what sense did Rome speak here? What was the intended audience? etc.
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In what sense did Rome speak here? What was the intended audience? etc.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
OK, now THAT is a manifestly evident teaching on the infallible (aka, irredeemable) nature of this doctrine. I was not aware of this.Rome has spoken:
“The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity.” (Vademecum for Confessors)
That’s what I’m talking about! No doubt!
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catholic1seeks
Guest
It is written by the Pontifical Council on the Family.OK, now THAT is a manifestly evident teaching on the infallible (aka, irredeemable) nature of this doctrine. I was not aware of this.
That’s what I’m talking about! No doubt!
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DavidFilmer
Guest
It doesn’t matter. You’re think of applying the Vatican-1 checklist to this document.A lot of things come out of Rome.
In what sense did Rome speak here? What was the intended audience? etc.
This document is not defining doctrine. This document is defining that OTHER doctrine is infallible.
This is the Magesterium of the Church at work making the infallible nature of this teaching manifestly evident, satisfying CIC 749. No more need for checklists and opinions - the Magesterium has defined it. In two short sentences.
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DavidFilmer
Guest
Yeah, I saw that. It’s at the top.It is written by the Pontifical Council on the Family.
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thinkandmull
Guest
It doesn’t infallibly teach that a certain teaching was infallible. It doesn’t say the Pope approved of it, so its not the Magisterium
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DavidFilmer
Guest
Anything that comes out of the Holy See is Magesterial. This is an Office of the Holy See.It doesn’t infallibly teach that a certain teaching was infallible. It doesn’t say the Pope approved of it, so its not the Magisterium
It doesn’t have to say anything about a Pope. All it has to say is that a teaching is irreformable. It doesn’t even have to say why.
This Office cannot promulgate infallible doctrine, but it can make the infallible nature of already-defined doctrine manifestly evident, which it did.
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catholic1seeks
Guest
Pontifical councils say things all the time. The Biblical commission once said in the early 1900s that it was dogma that we believe that the first woman came from the first man.Anything that comes out of the Holy See is Magesterial. This is an Office of the Holy See.
It doesn’t have to say anything about a Pope. All it has to say is that a teaching is irreformable. It doesn’t even have to say why.
This Office cannot promulgate infallible doctrine, but it can make the infallible nature of already-defined doctrine manifestly evident, which it did.
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simspt
Guest
your joking right? sex=biology=scienceLately all this talk of Laudato Si being prudential judgement and since its about science and nothing to do with faith or morals (even though the Pope made it a moral case by saying we all have a moral obligation to fight CC), people say it isn’t binding on the whole Church and it isn’t infallible.
Yet, that makes me think about the argument against contraception, for example, and the appeal to infallibility in this case. How can the Church infallibly proclaim against contraception, since it has nothing to do with Faith or Morals? Contraception has to do with sex, sex is biology, and biology is science. The technology of condoms and pills are also science. Isnt the RCC merely making prudential judgements here and perhaps even stepping outside of its bounds by talking about matters of science in this case as well?
how bout abortion thats biology and science too
Or lying and stealing performed by biological creature who live in a universe that is within the realm of physics and science
You don’t see any connection between morals and science???
Ever heard of biomedical ethics?
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Rau
Guest
A teaching can be infallible without there ever having been a definitive act which declares it so.…Humane Vitae did not have a clear “this is infallible.”
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dmar198
Guest
I don’t think that’s quite an accurate summary, but I do think the PBC indicated that we must give assent of mind and will to that proposition. Therefore I do. Their command did not come with any expiration date that I’m aware of and we do owe the PBC our assent. How would you answer the following argument:Pontifical councils say things all the time. The Biblical commission once said in the early 1900s that it was dogma that we believe that the first woman came from the first man.
(1) We must assent to the teachings of the Ponfitical Biblical Commission under pain of sin.
(2) That Eve came from Adam is a teaching of the Pontifical Biblical Commission.
(3) Therefore, we must assent to the teaching that Eve came from Adam under pain of sin.
Do you think there’s a problem with that argument? If so, what? If not, then why would you bring it up as an example of something councils “say all the time”?
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DavidFilmer
Guest
Did it say this teaching was definitive and irreformable?Pontifical councils say things all the time. The Biblical commission once said in the early 1900s that it was dogma that we believe that the first woman came from the first man.
That’s Vatican-speak for infallible.
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Rau
Guest
I note you have elsewhere siad that an explicit infallible declaration would merely make you think more on the subject, that is, you’re not prepared to say that it would cause you to believe.True.
I guess I just have bigger doubts.
The teaching on contraception is infallible. Following explanations of various related terms, extracted from EWTN, may be helpful. There is also a CFD document that says essentially the same thing as this.
*These are terms that are easily confusing.
Doctrine. The word doctrine comes, by way of the Latin doctrina, from the Greek word doxa, meaning belief. The doctrine(s) of the Church, therefore, are those teachings which must be believed by the faithful. These include 1) dogmas, teachings which the Church has solemnly defined as formally revealed by God, and, 2) other teachings definitively proposed by the Church because they are connected to solemnly defined teachings. The first (dogmas) can be called doctrines of divine faith, the second doctrines of catholic faith. Together they are said to be “of divine and catholic faith.” Both kinds of doctrine require the assent of faith. Both are infallibly taught by the Church. Dogmas require it because they are formally revealed by God. Doctrines definitively proposed by the Church require it, because the infallibility of the Church in matters of faith and morals is itself divinely revealed. A side note, doctrine shares the same root as orthodox, meaning correct belief. Those who hold the Church’s doctrines faithfully are thus orthodox.
Dogma. Dogmas, therefore, are those doctrines solemnly proposed by the Church as formally revealed in Scripture or Tradition. This may have been done by papal pronouncement (Pius IX: Immaculate Conception), by a General Council (Chalcedon: Christ is two natures in one Divine Person), or by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (killing an innocent human being is gravely immoral).
Definitively Proposed. Doctrines that are definitively proposed are no less certain, even though they are not proposed as formally revealed by God. They are connected to dogmas, however, by either historical or logical connection. An example of logical necessity would be the reservation of priesthood to men in the witness of Scripture and Tradition. The Church has not yet taught that it was formally revealed by God, but such dogmatization is possible. Papal infallibility was similarly infallibly taught by the Church before it was proposed as formally revealed by God. An example of historical necessity would be the election of a Pope or the celebration of a General Council. While a portion of the Church could elect an antipope, or hold a false council, the Church as a whole could not err in this way without compromising Christ’s revealed promise to be with the Church until the end of time.
Infallible. As noted above, all that the Church teaches as being of “divine and catholic faith” is taught infallibly. Infallibility is not limnited, therefore, to extraordinary acts of proposing dogmas, whether by popes or councils. Those looking to believe only such “infallible” statements deceive themselves. In both the category of divinely revealed and definitively proposed doctrines there are many which are taught only by the ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Church. This means that the Church has “always and everywhere” taught it as true, and, therefore, that the contrary position has never been taught. Perhaps, the most debated example is contraception. At no time in history has the Church taught that contraception is morally licit. Whenever in the Fathers, Doctors or the Magisterium it has been discussed it has always been as an evil. There is no formal declaration, no extraordinary act, but it is certainly infallibly taught from the beginning of the Church, to Paul VI, to today.
Authoritative. Finally, the Church teaches things which are neither proposed as formally revealed or definitively proposed. This is the category of authoritative teaching. Anything in the Catechism or a pope’s writings and addresses that is not “of divine and catholic faith” if clearly meant to take a position, without deciding it by proposing it as revealed or as definitive, is authoritively taught. It should receive “religious obedience of intellect and will,” as opposed to the assent of faith. Such obedience is an act of justice. It shows the respect Catholics owe the Pope, and it humbly acknowledges that by charism and grace of vocation the Pope is more likely to be right than those who disagree with him. As Vatican II noted, the weight to be given such teaching is “according to the mind and the will manifested; this is shown especially by the nature of the documents, by the frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or by the tenor of the verbal expression.” Thus, more weight would have to be given to something taught many times by successive popes than to something taught once by one pope. *
ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=564105
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thinkandmull
Guest
I don’t see where Catholic teaching says the Pope can hand over authority to teach to a commission
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dmar198
Guest
Do you see in Catholic teaching where you have to obey the pope? Because it follows pretty directly: if the pope said that you must obey a committee, and you didn’t, then you would be disobeying the pope. Does that make sense?I don’t see where Catholic teaching says the Pope can hand over authority to teach to a commission
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neophyte
Guest
The intended audience is the entire Church, and others of good will:A lot of things come out of Rome.
In what sense did Rome speak here? What was the intended audience? etc.
“To the Venerable Patriarchs, Archbishops, Bishops and other local Ordinaries in Peace and Communion with the Apostolic See, to Priests, the Faithful and all Men of Good Will”
Invocation of the mandate of Christ (paragraph 6):
“we now intend, by virtue of the mandate entrusted to us by Christ, to give our reply to these grave questions.”
The declaration (paragraph 14):
"Therefore We base Our words on the first principles of a human and Christian doctrine of marriage when We are obliged once more to declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun and, above all, all direct abortion, even for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as lawful means of regulating the number of children. (14) Equally to be condemned, as the magisterium of the Church has affirmed on many occasions, is direct sterilization, whether of the man or of the woman, whether permanent or temporary. (15)
Similarly excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means. (16)"
Sure looks to me like it fulfills the conditions of an infallible statement; at the very least, it makes manifest that the teaching is infallible: “we are obliged once more to declare…”. As in “it’s already infallible as part of the ordinary universal magisterium, but to remove all doubt we will invoke the mandate given us by Christ, address the whole Church and the entire world, and declare it to be so.”
It baffles me that anyone could read the encyclical and have any doubt that the teaching against contraception is infallible.
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thinkandmull
Guest
What’s this from?The intended audience is the entire Church, and others of good will:
“To the Venerable Patriarchs, Archbishops, Bishops and other local Ordinaries in Peace and Communion with the Apostolic See, to Priests, the Faithful and all Men of Good Will”
Invocation of the mandate of Christ (paragraph 6):
“we now intend, by virtue of the mandate entrusted to us by Christ, to give our reply to these grave questions.”
The declaration (paragraph 14):
"Therefore We base Our words on the first principles of a human and Christian doctrine of marriage when We are obliged once more to declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun and, above all, all direct abortion, even for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as lawful means of regulating the number of children. (14) Equally to be condemned, as the magisterium of the Church has affirmed on many occasions, is direct sterilization, whether of the man or of the woman, whether permanent or temporary. (15)
Similarly excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means. (16)"
Sure looks to me like it fulfills the conditions of an infallible statement; at the very least, it makes manifest that the teaching is infallible: “we are obliged once more to declare…”. As in “it’s already infallible as part of the ordinary universal magisterium, but to remove all doubt we will invoke the mandate given us by Christ, address the whole Church and the entire world, and declare it to be so.”
It baffles me that anyone could read the encyclical and have any doubt that the teaching against contraception is infallible.
On the committee: I think the Pope is misacting when is he says a committee has delegated authority.
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Rau
Guest
The declaration is from Humanae Vitae.What’s this from?
On the committee: I think the Pope is misacting when is he says a committee has delegated authority.
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Rau
Guest
Depends what authority is in question.What’s this from?
On the committee: I think the Pope is misacting when is he says a committee has delegated authority.
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dmar198
Guest
How do you answer the argument I made above?I think the Pope is misacting when is he says a committee has delegated authority.
If the pope said that you must obey a committee, and you didn’t, then you would be disobeying the pope. But we must obey the pope. Therefore we must obey any committee that the pope tells us to.
Do you see anything wrong with that argument?
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