Are the women who seek abortion victims, too?

[sw85]

In another thread, I suggested that pro-lifers should spend less time talking about the negative effect abortion has on the women who undergo abortions, on the grounds that women aren’t the victims of abortion but (one of the) perpetrators of abortion.

It’s true in some kind of airy, ultimate sense that sinners are victims of their own sin, maybe even the biggest victims of them. But it’s not true in the ordinary sense in which we use the word “victim.” In the ordinary sense, the victim of a crime is the one who is on the receiving end of the crime, in this case, the murdered baby. The people on the other side of the crime are perpetrators, conspirators, and collaborators.

It’s also interesting to me that I don’t even think pro-lifers take this argument seriously, since we literally never apply it to anyone else. We never say “You shouldn’t beat up and rob people because you might feel bad afterward.” They really might feel bad afterward, but that, of course, isn’t the reason they shouldn’t do it and it’s not even in the top five list of reasons they shouldn’t do it.

Some other problems with this line of argument:

• It comes dangerously close to ceding our enemies’ position that abortion is primarily about the women and that everyone else in involved in those sordid dramas are secondary actors with no real stake in its outcome.
• It treats women who get abortions as if they weren’t actually responsible for their actions, as if they’re just ragdolls to whom things sort of happen and there’s nothing to be done about it but console them afterward. We do women no favors by treating them like children.
• It borders on embracing utilitarianism, as if the morality of any given action is determined by the extent to which it enhances pleasure or minimizes pain. If we really had to choose between only the two options, we’d much rather that women suffer and sacrifice raising children then live a life of post-abortion joy and abundance.
• It ignores the fact that very strong social pressures against abortion must play any part in its eventual reduction/abolition, especially if we expect to counter the very strong pressures for abortion (feminism, careerism, etc.). We didn’t get to where we are by holding abortionists and abortion-seekers to too strong of a standard.
• Talking this way (“abortion is murder! … but the real victims are the murderers”) sends the message that we don’t really believe our own BS, which probably alienates at least some people who might otherwise be inclined to think as we do. The left didn’t get to where it is by speaking in mincing equivocations.

Thoughts?

 

[1ke]

My thoughts are that it is not so simple as you believe. Yes, women who have abortions can be victims.

Are all women who have abortions victims? No.

Are some? Certainly

 

[sw85]

My thoughts are that it is not so simple as you believe. Yes, women who have abortions can be victims.

Are all women who have abortions victims? No.

Are some? Certainly

That’s the sort of situation where “victim” is more appropriate, but not that she is not the victim of abortion but of her own parents’ evil, as you say.

In other words, they may be victims of their circumstances, but they are not in the ordinary sense victims of abortion.

 

[Catholic80]

In another thread, I suggested that pro-lifers should spend less time talking about the negative effect abortion has on the women who undergo abortions, on the grounds that women aren’t the victims of abortion but (one of the) perpetrators of abortion.

It’s true in some kind of airy, ultimate sense that sinners are victims of their own sin, maybe even the biggest victims of them. But it’s not true in the ordinary sense in which we use the word “victim.” In the ordinary sense, the victim of a crime is the one who is on the receiving end of the crime, in this case, the murdered baby. The people on the other side of the crime are perpetrators, conspirators, and collaborators.

It’s also interesting to me that I don’t even think pro-lifers take this argument seriously, since we literally never apply it to anyone else. We never say “You shouldn’t beat up and rob people because you might feel bad afterward.” They really might feel bad afterward, but that, of course, isn’t the reason they shouldn’t do it and it’s not even in the top five list of reasons they shouldn’t do it.

Some other problems with this line of argument:

• It comes dangerously close to ceding our enemies’ position that abortion is primarily about the women and that everyone else in involved in those sordid dramas are secondary actors with no real stake in its outcome.
• It treats women who get abortions as if they weren’t actually responsible for their actions, as if they’re just ragdolls to whom things sort of happen and there’s nothing to be done about it but console them afterward. We do women no favors by treating them like children.
• It borders on embracing utilitarianism, as if the morality of any given action is determined by the extent to which it enhances pleasure or minimizes pain. If we really had to choose between only the two options, we’d much rather that women suffer and sacrifice raising children then live a life of post-abortion joy and abundance.
• It ignores the fact that very strong social pressures against abortion must play any part in its eventual reduction/abolition, especially if we expect to counter the very strong pressures for abortion (feminism, careerism, etc.). We didn’t get to where we are by holding abortionists and abortion-seekers to too strong of a standard.
• Talking this way (“abortion is murder! … but the real victims are the murderers”) sends the message that we don’t really believe our own BS, which probably alienates at least some people who might otherwise be inclined to think as we do. The left didn’t get to where it is by speaking in mincing equivocations.

Thoughts?

I think there’s a big difference between someone who is deliberately committing a crime, knowing it’s wrong, and a woman who is scared and often pressured into doing something she doesn’t want to do, all the while being fed lies by her most intimate relations - her family, friends, bf/spouse, doctor, nurse, with the media and society not only telling her it’s a good decision, but promoting the idea.

Women who regret their abortions often say, “If I had know the truth…” How can we not have compassion on someone who is so cruelly deceived and who suffers so much? Christ had compassion for sinners and we should do the same.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight abortion ardently. The people who are most guilty are not the mothers, but the doctors, legislators and persons who promote abortion. They are educated and are not in a vulnerable situation where the rest of their lives will be dramatically changed forever. They flat out refuse truth, or are highly deceived themselves.

But as all sin goes, shouldn’t we have compassion on all sinners who regret their sin? Didn’t Christ do that? The thief who was crucified next to him suffered, the prostitute suffered, the demoniac suffered… Christ says several times to St. Faustina in her diary, the worse the sin, the more the sinner has a right to His mercy and that the worst sins are but a drop in the vast ocean of His mercy. Then, the Bible says, “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” The parallel Gospel reads the same passage as, “Be merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful.” How are we to follow Christ in perfection? By being merciful. And aren’t we all sheep who have been led astray by the lies of the devil.

In short, one could argue that we are all guilty, and at the same time, we are all victims. Yes, a woman who has an abortion is guilty, but she is also a victim of the largest deception of lies. Even if those reasons are selfish reasons, then all the more we should have compassion because she is so deceived as to believe that her selfish desires will bring her happiness.

Being a victim does not eradicate responsibility. At the same time, it is erroneous to say that the woman bears 100% of the responsibility. The sinner who sins out of passion is less at fault then the sinner who sins with full knowledge. Again, the abortionists and law makers and Planned Parenthood are in it for the $$ and for themselves. The BF who doesn’t want to have to own up to being a father, or the family who doesn’t want to be embarrassed by having their teenage daughter be pregnant has a bigger part in the responsibility than a scared, vulnerable young woman or teen. Every case is different, but I have yet to meet a woman who actually wanted to have an abortion. There are, however, abortionists who want to do abortions because of the high $$.

 

[AlTheCollegeGal]

I think there’s a big difference between someone who is deliberately committing a crime, knowing it’s wrong, and a woman who is scared and often pressured into doing something she doesn’t want to do, all the while being fed lies by her most intimate relations - her family, friends, bf/spouse, doctor, nurse, with the media and society not only telling her it’s a good decision, but promoting the idea.

Women who regret their abortions often say, “If I had know the truth…” How can we not have compassion on someone who is so cruelly deceived and who suffers so much? Christ had compassion for sinners and we should do the same.

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fight abortion ardently. The people who are most guilty are not the mothers, but the doctors, legislators and persons who promote abortion. They are educated and are not in a vulnerable situation where the rest of their lives will be dramatically changed forever. They flat out refuse truth, or are highly deceived themselves.

But as all sin goes, shouldn’t we have compassion on all sinners who regret their sin? Didn’t Christ do that? The thief who was crucified next to him suffered, the prostitute suffered, the demoniac suffered… Christ says several times to St. Faustina in her diary, the worse the sin, the more the sinner has a right to His mercy and that the worst sins are but a drop in the vast ocean of His mercy. Then, the Bible says, “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” The parallel Gospel reads the same passage as, “Be merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful.” How are we to follow Christ in perfection? By being merciful. And aren’t we all sheep who have been led astray by the lies of the devil.

In short, one could argue that we are all guilty, and at the same time, we are all victims. Yes, a woman who has an abortion is guilty, but she is also a victim of the largest deception of lies. Even if those reasons are selfish reasons, then all the more we should have compassion because she is so deceived as to believe that her selfish desires will bring her happiness.

Amen. I think that it’s important not to lay all the blame on the mothers’ hands, because a good portion of it should be leveled upon the abortionists, society, and relations who continually promote the fallacy that abortion is a mere medical procedure without any ramifications.

 

[Evania]

Women most certainly are victims. Have you heard of the case of the 13 year old suing her parents for trying to force her to have an abortion? I admire her bravery. How many other girls are forced in a similar manner? I personally have heard of several. They are lied to, coerced, and made to feel fearful of their futures. Not only that, but you usually have the boyfriend pressuring her for the same reasons, not to mention his family. In an interview, a former Planned Parenthood staffer, recounted a time when the waiting room was filled with broken girls who were crying as they left after their abortion. EVERY SINGLE boyfriend had a bouquet of flowers to present to them. Disgusting. Abortion is a big business. It is a machine. Send a young, vulnerable woman in there, and the odds that she’ll choose life are slim to none. Thank God for the compassionate pro-life people who she sees praying on her way in. A woman who later decided to not go through with her abortion said, " I didn’t really want to do this. I just felt I had no other option. I had no one to talk to." Is having an abortion a sin? Yes! Is acknowledging that women are victims of abortion wrong? Not at all,.

 

[Lisa1967]

My great grandmother died of a self induced abortion in 1909 when she was expecting her seventh child. I believe she was a desperate woman who couldn’t face another child. Maybe there wasn’t anyone around to help her seek another way. I wouldn’t call her a victim, but I have some sympathy for her. It was tragic for the family. Not only were she and the baby dead, but the father put the two youngest in an orphanage until he remarried. One of the children placed there, my grandfather (age 2 when his mother died) contracted an eye disease there which left him visually impaired. I think it’s better not to condemn people in this situation, but to help them.

 

[edwest2]

In another thread, I suggested that pro-lifers should spend less time talking about the negative effect abortion has on the women who undergo abortions, on the grounds that women aren’t the victims of abortion but (one of the) perpetrators of abortion.

It’s true in some kind of airy, ultimate sense that sinners are victims of their own sin, maybe even the biggest victims of them. But it’s not true in the ordinary sense in which we use the word “victim.” In the ordinary sense, the victim of a crime is the one who is on the receiving end of the crime, in this case, the murdered baby. The people on the other side of the crime are perpetrators, conspirators, and collaborators.

It’s also interesting to me that I don’t even think pro-lifers take this argument seriously, since we literally never apply it to anyone else. We never say “You shouldn’t beat up and rob people because you might feel bad afterward.” They really might feel bad afterward, but that, of course, isn’t the reason they shouldn’t do it and it’s not even in the top five list of reasons they shouldn’t do it.

Some other problems with this line of argument:

• It comes dangerously close to ceding our enemies’ position that abortion is primarily about the women and that everyone else in involved in those sordid dramas are secondary actors with no real stake in its outcome.
• It treats women who get abortions as if they weren’t actually responsible for their actions, as if they’re just ragdolls to whom things sort of happen and there’s nothing to be done about it but console them afterward. We do women no favors by treating them like children.
• It borders on embracing utilitarianism, as if the morality of any given action is determined by the extent to which it enhances pleasure or minimizes pain. If we really had to choose between only the two options, we’d much rather that women suffer and sacrifice raising children then live a life of post-abortion joy and abundance.
• It ignores the fact that very strong social pressures against abortion must play any part in its eventual reduction/abolition, especially if we expect to counter the very strong pressures for abortion (feminism, careerism, etc.). We didn’t get to where we are by holding abortionists and abortion-seekers to too strong of a standard.
• Talking this way (“abortion is murder! … but the real victims are the murderers”) sends the message that we don’t really believe our own BS, which probably alienates at least some people who might otherwise be inclined to think as we do. The left didn’t get to where it is by speaking in mincing equivocations.

Thoughts?

First, all Catholics need to know that legalized abortion was based on lies and deceptions:

catholicnewsagency.com/resources/abortion/articles-and-addresses/an-ex-abortionist-speaks/

It started in 1969 and was carefully planned to discredit enemy number one, the Catholic Church, and to convince people of the opposite of what was true.

Women were brainwashed into believing that it’s “every woman’s right to choose”!!! By radical, destroy the family feminists. In cases where consent was involved - the man meant NOTHING. He became invisible. Only the woman mattered.

Abortion is an industry with one purpose - killing babies in the womb. There’s money in that. Who cares what the woman thinks or feels? Pay your money and get your abortion. Next!

Like a product that harms people, it needs to be recalled.

lifesitenews.com/news/janet-morana-recalls-abortion39s-painful-impact/

Peace,
Ed

 

[mommamaree]

Yes, I think many, if not most, of them are victims, too. Not victims of abortion, but victims of abuse, neglect, manipulation, coercion, sometimes even of rape or molestation.
One woman I know who has admitted to me that she had an abortion is haunted by it. She was coerced and manipulated into it by her boyfriend, who said he would abandon her if she kept the baby. Then, he proposed to her immediately after she complied, and later abandoned her anyway. How tragic!
I feel so much sorrow when I hear women’s stories about why they chose abortion. I have heard a story of a truly willful choice exactly twice. Every other story I have heard involved a girl or woman having pressure applied to her by a doctor, parents, boyfriend or husband.
So yes, there are two victims in every abortion. Acknowledging that the mother is a victim, too, in no way diminishes the tragic death of the baby.
Babies deserve to be loved and wanted.
Women deserve better than abortion.
These truths are not mutually exclusive.
Prolifers shouldnt continue the proabortion rhetoric that pits mother against baby. We should seek to acknowledge the pain and rights of both and support them both. It is the only way we can truly help these mothers and their babies.

 

[sherimarie]

I hear yah! I had a really hard time drumming up some empathy for that poor women that just lost her life when she killed her baby at 33 week gestation. The bottom line though is trying to keep the baby alive that is threaghtened by abortion, and showing the mother that it’s not the best thing for HER is often the best way to do that. It’s a scary situation to be in and the abortionists take advantage of terrified women in order to take their money, that’s why people blame the abortionist and not the mother so much.

 

[Allegra]

Lots of women (many of whom are really girls) are victims in the situation. For example:
An underage girl who is being coerced by an older boyfriend who doesn’t want to go to jail.
An underage girl who is being forced to have the abortion by a parent.
A woman who is trapped in prostitution by violence or addiction.
A woman who is being coerced by a husband or boyfriend.

 

[Evania]

And the sickening thing is that Planned Parenthood was caught on tape offering assistance to an undercover couple posing as an underage girl and older man. They said they would provide an abortion and not report the crime.

 

[Jeanne_S]

The fallout from abortion is multi faceted.Obviously,of greatest concern is the nascent life in the womb. An innocent victim in the truest sense.Having said that,this doesn’t negate the trauma the post abortive woman most certainly will experience. She is a secondary victim of this evil.My opinion is the post abortive woman and everyone else effected by the abortion can effect the greatest results in the pro life movement by sharing their experiences and resulting sorrow. The pro abortion folks will never tell a woman considering terminating her pregnancy that she will most likely live to regret it,that it is not the answer to her situation,she is trading one problem for an even greater one.

 

[vames]

Every case is different, but I have yet to meet a woman who actually wanted to have an abortion.

Exactly. And I post again the link from the previous thread:
mccl.org/forced-abortion.html

Now perhaps the OP is thinking that all the possible “pressures” are in fact benign advices from a boyfriend or their parents and that the girl or woman always has the means to seek help and shelter elsewhere. Or that every country has a policy of offering such help and shelter. Not so. There are teenagers or even mothers of many children, with no education, no job, no money and nowhere to go, who are beaten and threatened with eviction by their own husbands and parents-in-law if they refuse to abort their wanted child. Including in countries where abortion is or was illegal. Dirt-poor families where women have no say and no rights. And these are not exceptions or isolated cases in an ocean of rich women from rich countries who freely choose an abortion because of “feminism an careerism”. To accuse all women of being “the perpetrators” who cleverly seek to escape the responsibility of a crime by blaming others is absurd.

 

[sw85]

Women who regret their abortions often say, “If I had know the truth…” How can we not have compassion on someone who is so cruelly deceived and who suffers so much? Christ had compassion for sinners and we should do the same.

No one’s saying “don’t have compassion.” That’s a red herring. What’s being said is that “having compassion” doesn’t require us to pretend that women are the real victims of abortion rather than it’s, you know, perpetrators. In other words, charity doesn’t require us to ignore truth.

Being a victim does not eradicate responsibility. At the same time, it is erroneous to say that the woman bears 100% of the responsibility.

No one’s saying this, either. I said above that abortionists et al. are conspirators/collaborators/partners in the crime.

Women most certainly are victims. Have you heard of the case of the 13 year old suing her parents for trying to force her to have an abortion? I admire her bravery.

OK, but is there any evidence this is the norm? The stats I’ve seen suggest teenagers account for maybe 1 in 5 abortions.

At any rate, I’m obviously not talking about cases where people are forced against their will into abortions or (like almost happened to this poor girl) deliberately poisoned so as to induce them, etc. I’m talking about situations where we would actually normally consider a mortal sin to have obtained, i.e., where the abortion was obtained with sufficient maturity and freedom of will for it to have been a genuinely personal decision.

 

[sw85]

I may also be skeptical of this line of argument because I have heard pro-abortion types retort that they might not be so psychologically damaged if we pro-lifers weren’t always saying abortion is murder. In other words, the line of argument makes it possible for them (the apologists for murder) to paint us as the bad guys (for being “judgmental”).

 

[triumphguy]

In another thread, I suggested that pro-lifers should spend less time talking about the negative effect abortion has on the women who undergo abortions, on the grounds that women aren’t the victims of abortion but (one of the) perpetrators of abortion.

It’s true in some kind of airy, ultimate sense that sinners are victims of their own sin, maybe even the biggest victims of them. But it’s not true in the ordinary sense in which we use the word “victim.” In the ordinary sense, the victim of a crime is the one who is on the receiving end of the crime, in this case, the murdered baby. The people on the other side of the crime are perpetrators, conspirators, and collaborators.

It’s also interesting to me that I don’t even think pro-lifers take this argument seriously, since we literally never apply it to anyone else. We never say “You shouldn’t beat up and rob people because you might feel bad afterward.” They really might feel bad afterward, but that, of course, isn’t the reason they shouldn’t do it and it’s not even in the top five list of reasons they shouldn’t do it.

Some other problems with this line of argument:

• It comes dangerously close to ceding our enemies’ position that abortion is primarily about the women and that everyone else in involved in those sordid dramas are secondary actors with no real stake in its outcome.
• It treats women who get abortions as if they weren’t actually responsible for their actions, as if they’re just ragdolls to whom things sort of happen and there’s nothing to be done about it but console them afterward. We do women no favors by treating them like children.
• It borders on embracing utilitarianism, as if the morality of any given action is determined by the extent to which it enhances pleasure or minimizes pain. If we really had to choose between only the two options, we’d much rather that women suffer and sacrifice raising children then live a life of post-abortion joy and abundance.
• It ignores the fact that very strong social pressures against abortion must play any part in its eventual reduction/abolition, especially if we expect to counter the very strong pressures for abortion (feminism, careerism, etc.). We didn’t get to where we are by holding abortionists and abortion-seekers to too strong of a standard.
• Talking this way (“abortion is murder! … but the real victims are the murderers”) sends the message that we don’t really believe our own BS, which probably alienates at least some people who might otherwise be inclined to think as we do. The left didn’t get to where it is by speaking in mincing equivocations.

Thoughts?

I think the 15 year old girl in one of my classes who was forced to have an abortion by her parents, and who was forcibly taken to the abortion clinic was definitely a victim.

I think girls who have no support, and the only info they get is from places like planned parenthood are victims too.

I also think that women who believe what society tells them, that they have “Choice” and who exercise that choice without knowing all the effects it’s going to have on them are victims too.

Don’t you agree?

 

[Jeanne_S]

At any rate, I’m obviously not talking about cases where people are forced against their will into abortions or (like almost happened to this poor girl) deliberately poisoned so as to induce them, etc. I’m talking about situations where we would actually normally consider a mortal sin to have obtained, i.e., where the abortion was obtained with sufficient maturity and freedom of will for it to have been a genuinely personal decision.

O.K.,I see the point you are making.Yes,there is a huge difference between an underage girl being forced into an abortion as opposed to a mature woman,who has an abortion,simply because it isn’t convienient to have a baby.In the former instance,the young girl is innocent of the sin of abortion.The latter is guilty of mortal sin.Yet,she too,can and most likely will be a victim of post abortion guilt as well,maybe even more so,since she is fully culpable.

 

[Evania]

But three things have to be simultaneously in place for a mortal sin to have happened, and it’s impossible to look at a woman entering the clinic and judge her level of knowledge and willfull consent. Even Fr. Frank Pavone would tell you that the majority of women who enter a clinic feel scared and coerced in some fashion, so yes it is the norm. Is it true for everyone? No. Abortion is a horrible sin, no doubt! However, we shouldn’t let our righteous thirst for justice blind us to the fact that there are two victims, one who is dead and one who was lied to in order to accomplish it. Who is the real perpetuator? Society! A woman at my church once wrote a letter expressing her anguish over her pregnancy with twins. Her boyfriend left her, and then found out that she lost her job. She had five children at home already. She was terrified. A woman who had 6 kids, reached out to her and said, “Please don’t abort your babies. If you feel that’s what you’re going to do, I will take them and provide for them.” In my opinion, we need to increase our outreach even if it means personally sacrificing a chunk of ourselves in order to save these angels. The fears that these women feel are real. Abortion is a sin of society. We can always go the extra mile to help her out so it eliminates that desperation.

 

[3DOCTORS]

O.K.,I see the point you are making.Yes,there is a huge difference between an underage girl being forced into an abortion as opposed to a mature woman,who has an abortion,simply because it isn’t convienient to have a baby.In the former instance,the young girl is innocent of the sin of abortion.The latter is guilty of mortal sin.Yet,she too,can and most likely will be a victim of post abortion guilt as well,maybe even more so,since she is fully culpable.

And you’ve got to wonder how she got to the point in her life to be so hardened as to be able to make that decision so casually or so defiantly. Was it bad example, lack of love, too much influence of the pleasure-seeking culture? Yes, we have to fight back against these things but if a woman doesn’t know a better way or she’s been deceived by the lies, and we know who is the Father of Lies, we can look even on this woman with compassion (though we will feel disgusted and grieved by what she did). She is the hardened sinner that does need that extra grace and mercy in order to break through the shell of her defenses and admit she did something very wrong - and yet to avoid the trap of despair and suicide when the realization comes.

If you get a chance, read Won By Love, by Norma McCorvey, who was the “Jane Roe” of Roe v. Wade and worked in an abortion clinic then later became a Christian and was received into the Catholic church. It’s an amazing story. There are some disturbing descriptions of the abortion clinic, just a caution - but the focus of the story is McCorvey’s conversion.