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RoseMary131
Guest
Beautiful writings by Mary Beth Bonacci. Such wonderful wisdom. Thank you for sharing with us, Debora.
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oneofmany
Guest
lifenews.com/2013/02/20/planned-parenthood-pushes-sex-education-on-11-year-olds/
These little girls certainly are victims. Planned Parenthood starts them early thinking about sex, condoms and abortions.
These little girls certainly are victims. Planned Parenthood starts them early thinking about sex, condoms and abortions.
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oneofmany
Guest
This is a wonderful letter but I have read some posts from women on web sites that say their abortion was the best thing they ever did. A person in our parish who went to a Walk for Life heard a little girl say, “My mother had 3 abortions and she says it was the best thing she ever did.”
What do we do about the women who celebrate abortions? Sometimes it’s hard to bite ones tongue.
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RoseMary131
Guest
When you ask “what do we do about the women who celebrate abortions”, what are you asking? Do you mean “what do we say to that woman” or “what do we say to others about the idea that some women do celebrate abortion” ?
Some women promote abortion to “justify” to themselves that what they did was good. Many of these women may not realize they are “justifying” to themselves.
Often mothers push the abortion to a back corner of their mind. They don’t realize the issues or symptoms of Post Abortion Syndrome that they suffer are from their abortion.
The little girl who was over heard saying her “mother had 3 abortions and it was the best thing she ever did” is probably just repeating what she has heard from mom or someone else.
As this girl gets older, she may feel guilty that her siblings lost their lives and she was allowed to live. She may wonder why mom let her live and if mom really wants her. Siblings of aborted babies often suffer and may want to seek healing from a post-abortion program.
If you know someone who has had an abortion and they “celebrate” it to you (or speak to you about the sadness they suffer), simply speak to them with love. Lovingly let them know that there are women and men who suffer from Post Abortion Syndrome and if they ever feel they want to speak to someone say “here” is a name (website, phone number) of a place where you can find love and support.
Be ready to hear them say they don’t need it. You may simply be the one who plants the seed in their mind. Pray for them.
Tell them the name of:
Project Rachel in many dioceses. noparh.org/projectrachels.html
Surrendering the Secret surrenderingthesecret.com/
National Helpline for Abortion Recovery nationalhelpline.org/
Abby Johnson’s Book UnPlanned unplannedthebook.com/
Abby Johnson’s webpage abbyjohnson.org/
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Jeanne_S
Guest
What a sad statement,on many levels.This woman is in serious denial,also,why in the world would anyone share the fact that they have had multiple abortions with a small child!
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Boy_Wonder
Guest
Women who’ve had abortions need love, prayer, and whatever else is necessary to reconcile them to God.
Often they gave into pressure from the child’s father, their own parents, or friends and had an abortion against their will.
Very often they feel terrible and it follows them throughout their entire lives.
Yes, abortion is a terrible sin. But all of us are sinners. Rather than condemning women who’ve had abortions, we must have compassion and gently encourage them to reconcile. Project Rachel is an excellent ministry for women in this situation.
hopeafterabortion.com/
Why condemn when we can and must help them reconcile with God?
Often they gave into pressure from the child’s father, their own parents, or friends and had an abortion against their will.
Very often they feel terrible and it follows them throughout their entire lives.
Yes, abortion is a terrible sin. But all of us are sinners. Rather than condemning women who’ve had abortions, we must have compassion and gently encourage them to reconcile. Project Rachel is an excellent ministry for women in this situation.
hopeafterabortion.com/
Why condemn when we can and must help them reconcile with God?
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Jeanne_S
Guest
Amen!
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RoseMary131
Guest
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sw85
Guest
This thread is getting very frustrating. I wish people would stop posting if they cannot address the actual subject matter at hand.
No one is saying “don’t pray for/have compassion for women who don’t get abortions.”
No one is saying “women who get abortions deserve X, Y, and/or Z.”
No one is saying “women alone deserve 100% of the blame.”
No one is saying anything of this sort. Why, then, do you all see the need to continue harping on these red herrings? Is it a deliberate refusal to deal with the argument on offer, or a genuine inability to do so?
What is being said here is that women who procure abortions are not victims by virtue of their deliberate decision to kill their unborn children. They are the opposite of victims, they are the perpetrators. Talking about them as if they are victims (in anything but the sort of airy theological sense people rarely ever mean when they talk about women as “victims” of abortion) muddies the waters and confuses our theology, at the expense of appeasing the same feminist sensibilities that gave us abortion in the first place (which is, perhaps, why the pro-life movement has accomplished so little beyond keeping abortion from becoming a “settled issue”). This is a pretty basic point of moral theology: that you are responsible for your freely chosen behavior.
Appeals to the rare exceptional cases in America where there is no deliberate decision is irrelevant because it’s not what I’m talking about. (Since coercing an abortion is already illegal, why would I even be talking about that, hmm?)
Yes, some women are pressured into it. Some women are conditioned/coerced by negative social pressures. So what? “I vas just follovink orders,” is it? Do women lack reason, free will, moral responsibility, etc.? Are they simply ragdolls to whom things just happen and who have no influence or control or responsibility over anything? Is anyone here willing to follow this argument through to its logical conclusion, which is, yanno, patriarchy?
We seem to have this ludicrous standard about women and abortion that we don’t apply to anyone else, anywhere, ever. Who commits a horrible crime that is totally divorced from any sort of negative social influence – from parental abuse, from having fallen in with the wrong crowd at a young age, from the bad example set by a culture that fetishizes violence, etc.? Very few people. Yet we have no problem referring to, for instance, gang-bangers who joined a gang at age 12 for protection and wound up killing a few people as murderers, even if their circumstances are sympathetic. Why, then, do we have the same problem doing the same with women?
Yes, many (maybe even most) women suffer as a result of their abortion, because of guilt. This doesn’t make them victims, either; this is meritless psychobabble. Guilt is a natural and healthy response to having done something wrong. It’s conscience speaking to you. Besides, many people go on to repent of their crimes; the fellow that murdered Maria Goretti did, for instance. Does that make him the real victim of his crime? It is at best a tertiary reason why he should not have murdered Maria Goretti.
No one is saying “don’t pray for/have compassion for women who don’t get abortions.”
No one is saying “women who get abortions deserve X, Y, and/or Z.”
No one is saying “women alone deserve 100% of the blame.”
No one is saying anything of this sort. Why, then, do you all see the need to continue harping on these red herrings? Is it a deliberate refusal to deal with the argument on offer, or a genuine inability to do so?
What is being said here is that women who procure abortions are not victims by virtue of their deliberate decision to kill their unborn children. They are the opposite of victims, they are the perpetrators. Talking about them as if they are victims (in anything but the sort of airy theological sense people rarely ever mean when they talk about women as “victims” of abortion) muddies the waters and confuses our theology, at the expense of appeasing the same feminist sensibilities that gave us abortion in the first place (which is, perhaps, why the pro-life movement has accomplished so little beyond keeping abortion from becoming a “settled issue”). This is a pretty basic point of moral theology: that you are responsible for your freely chosen behavior.
Appeals to the rare exceptional cases in America where there is no deliberate decision is irrelevant because it’s not what I’m talking about. (Since coercing an abortion is already illegal, why would I even be talking about that, hmm?)
Yes, some women are pressured into it. Some women are conditioned/coerced by negative social pressures. So what? “I vas just follovink orders,” is it? Do women lack reason, free will, moral responsibility, etc.? Are they simply ragdolls to whom things just happen and who have no influence or control or responsibility over anything? Is anyone here willing to follow this argument through to its logical conclusion, which is, yanno, patriarchy?
We seem to have this ludicrous standard about women and abortion that we don’t apply to anyone else, anywhere, ever. Who commits a horrible crime that is totally divorced from any sort of negative social influence – from parental abuse, from having fallen in with the wrong crowd at a young age, from the bad example set by a culture that fetishizes violence, etc.? Very few people. Yet we have no problem referring to, for instance, gang-bangers who joined a gang at age 12 for protection and wound up killing a few people as murderers, even if their circumstances are sympathetic. Why, then, do we have the same problem doing the same with women?
Yes, many (maybe even most) women suffer as a result of their abortion, because of guilt. This doesn’t make them victims, either; this is meritless psychobabble. Guilt is a natural and healthy response to having done something wrong. It’s conscience speaking to you. Besides, many people go on to repent of their crimes; the fellow that murdered Maria Goretti did, for instance. Does that make him the real victim of his crime? It is at best a tertiary reason why he should not have murdered Maria Goretti.
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RoseMary131
Guest
You asked in post #1 for “THOUGHTS?” People have given you their thoughts. People have pointed out **their thoughts **on why mothers, father, grandparents, friends are victims of abortion.
“Is it a deliberate refusal to deal with the argument on offer, or a genuine inability to do so? -SW” People are not refusing to discuss if the mother is a victim of abortion. They are giving you their thoughts and ideas on “why the mother is often a victim in abortion, as well as the child who died.”
Maybe our thoughts are “psychobabble” in your thoughts. Maybe **our thoughts **on why the sweet little baby is not the only victim is based on a different view of the truth about abortion than you see.
“(Since coercing an abortion is already illegal, why would I even be talking about that, hmm?)…SW” The reason, **we are **talking about it (not you), is because it is very real, every single day, it happens - even if illegal. Its another reason to show the baby is not the only victim of abortion. You may not see this, but it is part of our thoughts on the subject.
Have you sat with a father or mother who lost their child to the horrors of abortion? Did they share with you the reason they bought into the lie of abortion? Did they share with you the truth they discovered afterwards?
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Boy_Wonder
Guest
Before we rush off to the stoning pit, let’s exercise charity and compassion. I know you hate hearing this over and over, but most of us appear to believe that loving compassion, rather than shrill and determined condemnation, is what God requires of us. God’s job is to judge - our job is to love!.
Rather than complain that everyone keeps talking about this, perhaps you might consider that this is the answer to your OP and that it may well be what God hopes you’ll hear and learn on this thread…
Besides, it’s not as clear a moral distinction as the false dichotomy you propose.
Most often, the women who abort their children are not only perpetrators of a wrong against their unborn child but also victims of their own “decision”.
Many are coerced or pressured into getting the abortion.
Many who aborted, willingly or not, now live with terrible guilt, grief, and depression. They too are victims of abortion.
So for the hundredth time - have some love and compassion. God and God alone can judge. Our job is to love.
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J_Peterson
Guest
Also, if you are told over and over again that there is nothing wrong with abortion and you believe them, can you really be acting with full knowledge?
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Boy_Wonder
Guest
Most of the people on this forum agree that abortion is wrong.
Many women who chose abortion were taught that it’s not wrong and may be the best course under the circumstances. This applies to the level of culpability they had at the time they made their decision. the decision to abort may not have been voluntary - they were coerced or manipulated by someone else into doing it.
However once a woman has an abortion, she often sees how terribly wrong it was. She is left terribly damaged and empty by the experience of ending her child’s life. In this sense she too becomes a victim of her decision to have an abortion.
I recently met someone who 35 years earlier had a promising future. She became pregnant in her late teens and her boyfriend badgered her to have an abortion. She was reluctant to do so but at the same time felt that it wasn’t necessarily wrong. Her life was never the same afterwards. She married and became a mother and her aborted child haunted her conscience. She became an addict and alcoholic. Nearly lost everything. In recovery from the addictions, she began to take a moral inventory of her past. this led her to therapy and eventually to Project Rachel. Today she volunteers at a crisis pregnancy center and speaks to school groups about the suffering and guilt which abortion can cause.
It’s not an either/or proposition. It’s both. The baby is always a victim but often the mother is or becomes one as well.
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RoseMary131
Guest
Yes, some women are pressured into it. Some women are conditioned/coerced by negative social pressures.“So what? “I vas just follovink orders,” is it?..SW”
The “So what” to this Dear SW is that the pressure, the conditioning by a society who has delivered them a false notion of what abortion is… is part of what makes abortive mothers victims in many cases.
How can you, with love in your heart for all of God’s children, write in mockery:" “I vas just follovink orders,” ? What mother have you heard tell her story sounded like that. You are mocking the pain these women hold for a lifetime. Women, today, who sit at an abortion recovery program because 50 years ago, their husband (whom they stayed married to) forced them to abort their child. Women, today, who are young and scared and have heard the lie that abortion will be their answer. You mock these precious children of God.
“Do women lack reason, free will, moral responsibility, etc.? …SW”
Scared, frightened, women… shaking with panic running through their body… Yes, at that point they lack reason. They are not in the same state of mind as you are at this moment sitting at your computer. Their free will may be so compromised because of all the “spinning out of control” in their mind and body that they follow whatever idea pops into their mind or whoever offers them the idea to abort. Moral responsibility changes when a person is not using a “sound mind”.
“Are they simply ragdolls to whom things just happen and who have no influence or control or responsibility over anything?..SW” Mothers will walk through the abortion mill door with a varying degree of control and understanding of what she is doing. If fear and panic have taken over her body and mind… her mind may function very little, her mind may be limp. If she is pressured (as a large number are every day) by the father or her parents, she is again “not in control”. When you look at the poor beautiful young mother walking out to her car and you follow her and you watch her cry and she tells you “pray for me”… You will know she did not go into that abortion clinic in the same state of mind as you are right now. What sign of God’s love will you be to her when you say “Are you just a ragdoll? Were you just “follovink orders”? Do you have no influence or control or responsibility over anything.”
You have many, many post of people trying to tell you what their thoughts are on one of the biggest lies - abortion. You may not be hearing what others are trying to express to you. People are expressing “why women are also victims of abortion”.
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RoseMary131
Guest
Here lies part of your misunderstanding: “their deliberate decision to kill their unborn children. -SW”
Women who are victims of abortion come from a variety of reasons they are victim.
The mother who did not “make her own decision”, but was forced.
The mother who was told “this isn’t a baby”.
The mother whose mind was not functioning in order to make a “deliberate” decision. Her mind is on “survival” of herself. Her mind can not comprehend there is a “life” within her. Her mind can’t comprehend “this is MY baby.” Her mind can’t comprehend, “this is my BABY.”
The “virtue of their deliberate decision to kill their unborn children” does not exist in the examples above.
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Debora123
Guest
:nope:
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Evania
Guest
You asked for thoughts. You got them. I think you’re frustrated because you wanted people to agree with you, and I’m sorry but we don’t…
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RoseMary131
Guest
Let’s look at your signature: “Both justice and charity require love for truth, and essentially involve the search for what is true. Without truth, charity slides into sentimentalism. Love becomes an empty shell to be filled arbitrarily. This is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth.” – Pope Benedict XVI
Let’s start with “love for truth”… abortion is sold as one “product” but delivers a different “product”… abortion is sold as a lie, a deception… society often falls for this lie, this deception, this falsehood. To love the truth, we need to understand the lie. We need to be vigilant in revealing the lie. We need to realize those who buy into the lie are victimized by the lie.
To offer “justice and charity” to our bothers and sisters, we have to “search for what is true”. We will require “love for that truth.” What frame of mind was our sister in when she went into the abortion mill and laid on that horrible table?
What lie had she bought into that caused her to be able to climb upon that table?
What lie had her friend bought into when telling our sister this would be an answer?
(What evil was running through the mind of the father or the grandparents of the baby, when forcing our sister to abort her baby? - in the case of many mothers)
What was she looking for when she dialed the abortion phone number to make the appointment?
What did she believe when the abortion worker told her this isn’t a baby? What about when the abortion worker distorted the ultrasound picture, if it was offered for her to see?
When we hear our sister’s answer, we see she was served lies.
How do we use justice and charity to tell our sister, “You are the perpetrator. This is a pretty basic point of moral theology: … you are responsible for your freely chosen behavior.”
With justice and charity, we see that statement is a lie for this post-abortive mother. Her behavior was based on lies. Her behavior was not “freely chosen” either by being forced by someone with power over her or by the fact that what she chose was a lie.
“This is the fatal risk of love in a culture without truth.” – Pope Benedict XVI
The culture of abortion is a lie, it is culture without truth. Those who fall for the lie, are victims of the lie and victims of the Father of Lies.
Let us pray for those who are victims of abortion - that is all of us - we are all victims because abortion harms not just the precious little baby who died - abortion harms the mother and father, the harm to them ripples out into society.
Let us especially pray for those who are the biggest victims of abortion, the precious child and the mother.
Our Lady of Guadalupe, Patroness of the Unborn ~ Pray for us.
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
This might be helpful to unserstand why some women have abortions.
Part I: Introduction: Pro-life women, and daughters from pro-life families, do have abortions.
Part II: Families that don’t recover
Part III: Rage, anger, contempt, scorn.
Part IV: Living In a Fishbowl
Part I: Introduction: Pro-life women, and daughters from pro-life families, do have abortions.
Part II: Families that don’t recover
Part III: Rage, anger, contempt, scorn.
Part IV: Living In a Fishbowl
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KostyaJMJ
Guest
Talking about women as victims of abortion removes the decision makers from the consequences of their actions. Not a very wise tactic, IMHO. Think of the old testament law that required parents who wanted their rebellious children killed cast the first stone. (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) If the parents want an abortion, they should be forced to own up to the act they are going to commit and accept the consequences.
- Status