Are there any Calvinists on this forum?

[sandusky]

Veritas41

My reply to your post is simply to disarming for me to post here.

I have laid out the facts from the Scripture, and have even dealt with other of your objections elsewhere on this thread.

We are on opposite ends of the issue.

I’m satisfied with what I have said, and I have nothing else to add.

 

[dennisknapp]

Veritas41

My reply to your post is simply to disarming for me to post here.

I** have laid out the facts from the Scripture, and have even dealt with other of your objections elsewhere on this thread.**

We are on opposite ends of the issue.

I’m satisfied with what I have said, and I have nothing else to add.

You have laid out the facts from your interpretation of Scripture.

Peace

 

[sandusky]

dennisknapp:

You have laid out the facts from your interpretation of Scripture.

Peace

Indeed. I can’t put anything over on you, dennisknapp.

 

[Matt16_18]

sandusky:

I have laid out the facts from the Scripture …

You have merely repeated over and over again certain Calvinist assumptions without addressing the scriptures that clearly contradict these defective assumptions. Bad eisegesis is not laying out “facts”.

 

[Pax]

Sandusky,

You said, *"What does Paul say in Eph 2:8? Does he say one is saved by grace through love? Does he say one is saved by grace through hope? Does he say one is saved by grace through charity? Does he say one is saved by grace through works?

No; he says that one is saved through faith in Christ." *

In order to understand and appreciate Eph 2:8-9 you also need to include verse 10 which says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

These verses are all very rich in meaning. It’s important to note that we are God’s workmanship and not our own workmanship. Moreover we are created in Christ Jesus for good works. God sets out a purpose of good works in us once we are justified and these works are done through our regeneration in Christ. Not only that, but God prepared the good works that we are to do before we were justified.

The entirety of Eph 2:8-10 demonstrates that we are saved by grace, that our works are by grace, and that we are God’s workmanship. This is faith and works. This is the workmanship of the Father’s hands in our hearts, minds, bodies, and souls, and all the glory goes to God. This is Catholic teaching on faith and works, and it is clear that we are not saved by faith alone.

 

[sandusky]

Pax:

In order to understand and appreciate Eph 2:8-9 you also need to include verse 10 which says, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

These verses are all very rich in meaning. It’s important to note that we are God’s workmanship and not our own workmanship. Moreover we are created in Christ Jesus for good works. God sets out a purpose of good works in us once we are justified and these works are done through our regeneration in Christ. Not only that, but God prepared the good works that we are to do before we were justified.

The entirety of Eph 2:8-10 demonstrates that we are saved by grace, that our works are by grace, and that we are God’s workmanship. This is faith and works. This is the workmanship of the Father’s hands in our hearts, minds, bodies, and souls, and all the glory goes to God. This is Catholic teaching on faith and works, and it is clear that we are not saved by faith alone.

You are quite right Pax, but look closer.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I don’t have a problem with works. As Jn 15 states, a believer will have works; it is the false believer that has no works, and is thrown away.

V9 plainly states that salvation is not as a result of works. It is a gift. It is not earned. That is why grace is defined as an unmerited favor.

Romans 4:3-6
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

That is what Paul is pointing out above. If it is of works, it is no longer grace, no longer an undeserved gift, but a debt on God’s part. IOW, He owes you for your work.

Works do not, indeed, they cannot save you. Works will determine the extent of the believer’s eternal reward, as is pointed out in 1 Cor 3, where the man’s works are tested.

God graces the believer with further eternal reward for the work of his life, but He is under no obligation to do that. It is just more grace. Read Lk 17:7-10.

Paul says in Rom 1 that the just, or righteous shall live by faith.

 

[Veritas41]

Faith is obviously the fundamental requirement, because without faith it is impossible to please God and without faith there wouldn’t follow any obedience to God’s commands or supernatural love. However faith isn’t the *only *requirement.
Did St. Paul mean the jailer need *only *have faith? Scripture speaks of salvation in three tenses:

PAST:
Rom. 8:24 “…we were saved.”
Eph. 2:5,8 “by grace you have been saved. . .”
2 Tim. 1:9 “he saved us. . .”
Titus 3:5 “*he saved us *. . .”

PRESENT ON-GOING:
Phil. 2:12, “*work out your salvation *. . .”
1 Peter 1:9, “*as you attain *the goal of your faith, salvation”

FUTURE:
**Matt. 10:22 **"he who endures to the end will be saved"
Acts 15:11 “*we shall be saved *through the grace of Jesus”
Rom. 5:9-10 "since we are justified, we shall be saved"
1 Peter 1:5 “. . .*until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.” *

These passages together make sense only if salvation is more than a one-time acceptance of Christ as Savior through faith. But salvation is so much more–the Catechism (italics mine):

2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.

2018 Like conversion, justification *has two aspects: *moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

2019 "Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man." . . .

2020 Justification *has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. *It is granted through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us.

Justification not only involves *entering *into a right relationship with God but also *remaining *in a right relationship with God through obedience which results in sanctification. This is all by grace (Eph. 2:8-10). Only this way can we reconcile Paul’s teaching on justification by faith (Romans 4:9) and James’ teaching on justification by works (James 2:24). Please note in Romans, where Paul is contrasting faith and circumcision. In the OT, Jews entered a covenantal relationship with God through circumcision. But to remain in covenant relationship with God, Jews were required to obey God’s moral law and the Mosaic ceremonial law. This is paralleled in the New Covenant, where we enter into a covenant relationship with God through Baptism, but Baptism and the faith we have are just the beginning – we must also *obey *God and love Him. We have *been saved *(entered into a right relationship with God through Christ), *are being saved *(growing in sanctity) and hope *to be saved *(persevere in the grace of God until the end of our earthly life, when we will behold the Lord in heaven).

Heb. 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and *to be holy *; without holiness no one will see the Lord."

This says: 1)make every effort to be holy 2) because without holiness we will not see the Lord. Therefore: 1) holiness is not an automatic result of faith 2) more than faith is necessary to be saved.

**Matt.5: 48, **“Be perfect. . .”

**2 Cor. 13:11, **"…*Aim for perfection *. . ."

We must “be perfect” and St. Paul says “aim for perfection.” This contradicts extrinsic justification, which says Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us in such a way that God sees us as perfectly righteous and holy while we remain objectively sinful and unrighteous. With intrinsic justification, God’s righteousness is infused into our souls, making us objectively righteous/holy and our sins are objectively removed, not simply covered over. This is why Christ can command us to be perfect and St. Paul can command us to aim for perfection – it is a life-long process of responding to the work of God’s grace within us, with its goal being perfection because that is the goal of our salvation --to be completely conformed to the image of Christ.

 

[sandusky]

Veritas41:

We must “be perfect” and St. Paul says “aim for perfection.” This contradicts extrinsic justification, which says Christ’s righteousness is imputed to us in such a way that God sees us as perfectly righteous and holy while we remain objectively sinful and unrighteous. With intrinsic justification, God’s righteousness is infused into our souls, making us objectively righteous/holy and our sins are objectively removed, not simply covered over. This is why Christ can command us to be perfect and St. Paul can command us to aim for perfection – it is a life-long process of responding to the work of God’s grace within us, with its goal being perfection because that is the goal of our salvation --to be completely conformed to the image of Christ.

There is much that you say that I agree with, but I part with you on this notion of intrinsic righteousness, and your lumping justification and sanctification together.

The Lord’s command in Mt 5:48 contextually speaks to God’s love, but even if I were to grant, for the sake of argument, that Christ’s command pertains to perfection as God is perfection, that is impossible, as the end result would be to become God. Jesus always sets unattainably high standards to impress upon the hearts of His hearers the dire condition of the sinner. In fact, go back 28 verses and see Him tell them that their righteousness must exceed even that of the Scribes and the Pharisees; Paul called that righteous “scoobalon,” or “rubbish,” or literally “dung” in Php 3. I am certain that all of Lord’s hearers groaned in their hearts when Jesus told them that must be as perfect as God, just as I groan when you tell me that you are really righteous.

Paul reduces that command to a more practical level for the believer by telling him to imitate God, and to imitate Christ (Eph 5:1; 1 Cor 11:1, etc.).

There is only one who is righteous, only one who is good, and that is God alone (Lk 18:19).

Imputed righteousness, and the covering of sin is first seen in the garden with the removal of the leaves and the covering of the two by the skin of an innocent. It is seen in Noah’s ark when Noah is told to cover it with pitch, the Hebrew word being the same one also translated atonement.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

That is the great exchange. He who knew no sin was made sin, so that the sinner who knew no righteousness became God’s righteousness in Him who knew no sin.

As God looked upon and treated Christ as sin on the cross, so He looks upon and treats us as Christ.

Here’s a quick study.

The O.T. word usually rendered “justify” is hitsdiq, the hiphil form is tsadaq. The Hebrew-English lexicon of Brown, Driver, and Briggs, lists only one instance where this word in the hiphil may mean “to make righteous” or “to turn to righteousness,” (Dan 12:3). Otherwise, this word is always used in a forensic or legal sense, as meaning, not “to make just or righteous,” but “to declare judicially that one is in harmony with the law.” Note, for example, Dt. 25:1: “If there is a dispute between men and they go to court, and the judges decide their case, and they justify (hitsdiqu) the righteous and condemn the wicked.” Here hitsdiq is contrasted with a word which means “to condemn”; thus the legal sense is intended. Pro 17:15 says: “He who justifies (matsdiq) the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord.” “Justifies” here cannot mean “to make righteous.” For certainly a person who made the wicked righteous would not be an abomination to the Lord. Clearly the forensic sense is meant: “pronounces or declares righteous.” (For other examples see: Job 32:2; 33:32; Ex 23:7; 1 Kgs 8:32; Is 53:11).

(cont)

 

[sandusky]

(continued from post #388)

The N.T. verb translated “to justify” is dikaioo; it is used 39 times. It is employed in the sense of “declaring someone righteous” in Lk 18:14, “this man…went home justified before God.” In his speech in Pisidian Antioch Paul is recorded as having said, “through Him [Jesus] everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses” (Acts 13:39). The reference in the previous verse to the forgiveness of sins implies that “justified from” means freedom from condemnation because of sin.

In Paul’s writings the word dikaioo is clearly used in a forensic or legal sense, as the declaring of a sinner to be righteous. It means the opposite of “condemnation” in rom 8:33-34. The opposite of condemnation, however, is not “making righteous” but “declaring righteous.” The forensic sense of dikaioo is brought out very clearly in rom 4:5: “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies (dikaiounta) the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.” The word rendered “credited,” (logizetai) is a legal term. Dikaioo here does not mean “to make righteous” but “to declare righteous,” and the faith of the person is credited to his account as righteousness. (For other examples see: Rom 3:20, 24, 26, 28; 5:1, 9; 8:30; 1 cor 6:11; Gal 2:16; 3:24; titus 3:7).

Neither God’s righteousness, nor His grace are a “substance” that is infused. His righteousness is who He is, His grace is a disposition toward the undeserving. The notion of “infusing” one or the other is foreign to Scripture. Real righteousness is eschatological; it is glorification.

 

[Pax]

sandusky:

You are quite right Pax, but look closer.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I don’t have a problem with works. As Jn 15 states, a believer will have works; it is the false believer that has no works, and is thrown away.

V9 plainly states that salvation is not as a result of works. It is a gift. It is not earned. That is why grace is defined as an unmerited favor.

Romans 4:3-6
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

That is what Paul is pointing out above. If it is of works, it is no longer grace, no longer an undeserved gift, but a debt on God’s part. IOW, He owes you for your work.

Works do not, indeed, they cannot save you. Works will determine the extent of the believer’s eternal reward, as is pointed out in 1 Cor 3, where the man’s works are tested.

God graces the believer with further eternal reward for the work of his life, but He is under no obligation to do that. It is just more grace. Read Lk 17:7-10.

Paul says in Rom 1 that the just, or righteous shall live by faith.

Please be advised that I was not suggesting that we earn justification through works. We both agree on the meaning of Eph 2:8-9. No one can do anything to earn the grace to believe in God and they can do nothing to be regenerated. That is God’s work and we are his workmanship. My point is that our works are also his grace and his workmanship and that is what makes them essential in the relationship of faith and works.

The passages of Eph 2:8-10 and James 2:24 give the same teaching. Catholics see the harmony in James and Paul and have no difficulty seeing that the two apostles are indeed teaching faith and works as explained above. James uses the word “justify” in his epistle and he knows the meaning of the term. James makes explicit statements about the necessity of “both” faith and works in our justification. Paul does so as well and this is seen in Eph 2:8-10 as well as the following examples:

Romans 2:6-8
For he will render to every man according to his works:
to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Rom 6:16
Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Gal 6:7-9
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit. So let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest time, if we do not give up.

 

[Pax]

sandusky:

There is much that you say that I agree with, but I part with you on this notion of intrinsic righteousness, and your lumping justification and sanctification together.
…
…

Clearly there are distinctions to be made between justification and sanctification, but it is also proper to say that at times they are virtually interchangeable in scripture. The most accurate way to state this is to say that there is no barrier or wall separating the two. Let me demonstrate this from scripture by showing how the passages using each of these terms could just as easily pertain to both.

Heb 13:12
Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood.
We could just as easily replace the word sanctify in this passage with the word justify and we would not be speaking any heresy.

Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the message of his grace, a message that is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all who are sanctified.
Once again, we could use the word justified instead of sanctified and we would not be speaking heresy. The same kind of thing can be said of all of the following passages as well.

**Acts 26:18
to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

1Cor 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Rom 6:22
But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life.

Heb 2:11
For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters,

HEB 10:9
And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:29
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

1Peter 1:2
who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

2 Thess 2:13
But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.**
When we are freed from the bonds of sin and live moral and holy lives we are being sanctified by grace through Jesus Christ. Romans 6:7 says, “For whoever has died is freed from sin.” The Living bible translation reads this way: “for when you are deadened to sin you are freed from all its allure and its power over you.” Most non-Catholics look at this verse in terms of sanctification and most translations give the sense of holiness and overcoming sin in that verse. The Greek, however, uses the word “justified.” There really is no clearly defined line between sanctification and justification.

 

[Pax]

sandusky:

You are quite right Pax, but look closer.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
…
Romans 4:3-6
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
…
…
Paul says in Rom 1 that the just, or righteous shall live by faith.

Hebrews chapter 11 is a great one for showing the relationship of faith and works. It demonstrates something about faith that is contained in your quotes but I don’t think you completely agree with. Hebrews 11 speaks of the faith of Abraham, Moses, Isaac and many others. They had faith, lived by faith, and had an action filled faith. Abraham’s faith is demonstrated several different times and with different incidences and each time he is said to have been justified on each ocassion. This can also be seen with the other individuals described in the OT and in the eleventh chapter of Hebrews. Now in each case the faith these individuals had was associated with some actions or works. Let’s use one example in Abraham.

We are told in Hebrews 11:8 that, " By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go." This incident is described originally in Gen 12:1-4. Now please note that Abraham is also described as being justified by faith years later in Gen 15:6 when he believed the promise concerning his descendents, and then again in Gen 22 when he was ready to sacrifice Isaac on the altar. Now in these examples and all of the examples in Hebrews 11 we see a common thread. All of those described as having faith had some kind of action associated with their faith and Abraham is no exception. Clearly, Abrahams faith in Gen 12 would have been a dead and meaningless faith if he had not obeyed God and left Haran. The same kind of thing can be pointed to in all of the other instances.

This is why we are said to be justified by faith and works and not by faith alone. Abraham did not initiate and earn God’s grace. God chose Abraham. God also gave Abraham the gift of faith and the grace to do what James refers to as “faith completed by works.” It is all by grace and it is both faith and works. And since it is all by grace all the honor, glory, and credit go to God.

 

[TheOpenTheist]

Catholic Dude:

I have tried to follow the open theist stuff, here is what I have to say:

First of all you keep mentioning Gal2:7-7 but on the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised

In places like Acts16 it says:1 And he came also to Derbe and to Lystra. A disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer; but his father was a Greek. 2 He was well spoken of by the brethren at Lystra and Ico’nium. 3 Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him; and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews that were in those places, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.

OK. What in this passage do you not understand Dude??

Its extremely obvious what this is all about when you look at what Paul writes about not having to circumcise anyone in Galatians 2:3 when he made a trip to visit James and Peter after many years (14 years in fact) having not met with them. Paul had Timothy circumcised “because of the Jews that were in those places”. Do you realize what this means? It means that had Paul not had Timothy circumcised there would have been big trouble from those Jews and he would have been unable to preach the gospel Christ committed to him to that particular audience.

If Paul doesn’t circumcise Timothy then he is unable to get his foot in the door. And if he can’t get his foot in the door to preach then all of his efforts to reach those Jews at that time (and in the future) in that area would have been in vain.

 

[TheOpenTheist]

The Augustinian:

You’re being off topic, OpenTheist. Take your discussion to another thread.

I am not off topic at all. In fact, understanding that God is able to take different routes in response to the choices men make is integral to understanding the Plot of the Bible. Its necessary to make sense of things especially in the New Testament. And here is why.

God lays out a plan in the Old Testament and seeks to bring it about in the New Testament. His plan is to reach the entire world through the nation of Israel. BUT, in order for God to do this, Israel must cooperate with His plan. Jesus tells us of this reality in the parable found in Luke 13:6-9

Luke 13:6-9 …"A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 "Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, ‘Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?’ 8 "But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize [it.] 9 ‘And if it bears fruit, [well.] But if not, after that you can cut it down.’ "

This is in line with how God said he would respond in the Potter/Clay metaphor that originated in Jer 18

Jeremiah 18:1-10 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying: 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.” 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. "Look, as the clay [is] in the potter’s hand, so [are] you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 "The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy [it,] 8 "if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 "And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it,] 10 "if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Israel did evil/did not bear fruit, so God cut Israel off and brought about His eternal purpose through the Body of Christ, which until Christ revealed it to Paul had been a secret (yes, even to Peter and the rest of the apostles and desciples) hidden in God before the world began (Rom 16:25; Eph 3:3-5,9-10; Col 1:26).

This shows that God is able to choose among various routes in order to bring about His purposes. And that fact is at the core of the topic of this thread.

 

[TheOpenTheist]

Matt16_18:

Open Theism is nothing but the heresy of Process Theology. In this schema, God is subject to time, not the creator of time, and God is not omniscient since the future is obscure even to God. If Open Theism was true, we should all worship space and time, since that would be the ultimate ground of all being, even God’s being. Open Theism & Process Theology

One of the leading spokesman of open theism, Clark Pinnock, in describing how libertarian freedom trumps God’s omniscience says, “Decisions not yet made do not exist anywhere to be known even by God. They are potential–yet to be realized but not yet actual. God can predict a great deal of what we will choose to do, but not all of it, because some of it remains hidden in the mystery of human freedom … The God of the Bible displays an openness to the future (i.e. ignorance of the future) that the traditional view of omniscience simply cannot accommodate.” (Pinnock, "Augustine to Arminius, " 25-26) ….

Having been taken captive by modernity, process theology is an intellectually driven system of pure philosophical speculation which has endeavored to co-opt historic Christianity by recasting it into the image of its own complex flights of metaphysical fancy. Holds that reality [including God] is becoming rather than being - in process rather than static. In its near take over of most major seminaries this heresy is a wholesale turning away from the true biblical gospel to a pseudo-gospel, a human invention and a parody of the truth. Instead of household gods carved out of wood, these new idolaters carve them with their unaided intellects. While claiming to represent the historic faith, process theology has become its bane. …. Most Process theologians also embrace the idea that God is in some sense dependent on the universe to be complete and, like the Mormon god, believe God can actually improve, so they reject the biblical notion of God’s ASEITY. It is more philosophically than biblically based but attempts to co-opt biblical terms to process concepts. While this carefully crafted system certainly has its place in the world of philosophic speculation, it has no place within the realm of historic Christianity and clearly belongs alongside the pagan pantheon of the false deities that Christ came to overthrow. Process theology is the modern inheritor of the Gnostic mantle.

Good grief! You could not have picked a worse reference disagreeing with the Open View had you tried to.

First of all, time is not a thing. You do not have time on your shirt or see time floating past you. To make time into an entity is to reify time.

God has always expressed His love within the Trinitarian relationship. Since God has always existed, the presence of sequence and duration is not a problem at all. Time, or duration, is part of the life of God. One of God’s names is The One who is and who was and who is to come. There is no such thing as a “timeless” existence. To be timeless is to not exist at all at any time in history.

God is everlasting. The arrows go both ways.

<--------------------------------------PRESENT-------------------------------------->

Just because we recognize that God has always been in some sort of relationship within the Trinity, therefore meaning that He has always had some sort of duration in loving and receiving love, does not mean that we think that we should then reify time and worship time as the idiotic and degrading explanation by that 5 point Calvinist claims.

And anyone who is knowledgeable about Process Theology will tell you that Open Theism is definitely NOT the same thing as Process. If you want to read a few critiques of the Open View by Process Theologians then check out the book that William Hasker and some others contributed to in a discussion about the Open View and Process Theology titled Searching For An Adequate God: A Dialogue between Process and Free Will Theists.

The Open View asserts that God knows the entire future as it truly is. God’s knowledge of the future is coextensive with reality. And that future is partly open and partly settled, allowing creation to genuinely respond and relate with God and allowing God to respond to our responses which He is shown doing often throughout the Bible. God actually does receive our prayers when we pray. Think about that the next time you chant “receive our prayers” during a mass.

 

[need_to_know]

dts:

Calvinists come in a variety of flavors. If you really want to understand the core of Calvinistic theology, a good starting point is to become familiar with the Westminster Standards:

Westminster Shorter Catechism
Westminster Longer Catechism
Westminster Confession of Faith

opc.org/documents/standards.html

As a former Calvinist, I can say that they are wrongly maligned on many points. Calvinism is probably the only Protestant system of belief that is intellectually comprehensive and rigorous.

Why are those documents on the Orthodox Presbyterian Church? Or am I missing something here? I usually am …

 

[Matt16_18]

TheOpenTheist:

First of all, time is not a thing.

Physical beings and objects exist in space-time. Space time was created by God * ex nihilo*, and because space-time is created by God, it is a thing. Space-time as we know it is now under the power of death, and death space-time is a temporal reality that is going to be destroyed by divine fire.But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire!
2Pet. 10-12

 

[Catholic_Dude]

need_to_know:

Why are those documents on the Orthodox Presbyterian Church? Or am I missing something here? I usually am …

Presbyterians are calvinists. The westminster stuff is all calvinist creeds and doctrines. Of course though people have different definitions of what exacly calvinism teaches.

One quote I read was that the definition of a Hyper Calvinist is anyone who doesnt share your version of Calvinism.

 

[Veritas41]

By saying works are required for salvation doesn’t mean that we believe works *earn *our salvation. They are the *working out *of our salvation spoken of in Philippians 2:12-13, “…continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose.” Our responsibility before God is to respond to the grace within us by cooperating with it, not resisting it. Faith and works are both possible only because of God’s grace at work within us. The difference I see between the Catholic and Protestant understanding of works is that Protestants generally view good works to be an *automatic *result of faith, whereas Catholicism teaches that we must choose to do good works–they are not automatic as a result of our faith, since we can also choose to sin. Here’s what the Catechism says on the matter, so you can see we don’t believe we “earn” salvation by good works:

III Merit

'You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts." [St. Augustine]

2006 The term “merit” refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from teh fact that *God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. *The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through is collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow *true merit *on us as a result of God’s gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us “co-heirs” with Christ and worthy of obtaining “the promised inheritance of life.” The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. “Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due…Our merits are God’s gifts.” [St. Augustine]

 

[Veritas41]

The Lord’s command in Mt 5:48 contextually speaks to God’s love, but even if I were to grant, for the sake of argument, that Christ’s command pertains to perfection as God is perfection, that is impossible, as the end result would be to become God.

Yes, I agree the command in Matt 5:48 does speak to God’s love, and Jesus says we are to love perfectly, just as God does. Does that mean we become God? Of course not! Weren’t Adam and Eve created perfect? Yet they were fully human.
Paul reduces that command to a more practical level for the believer by telling him to imitate God, and to imitate Christ (Eph 5:1; 1 Cor 11:1, etc.).
If we imitate God and Christ, we are imitating perfection, are we not?

There is only one who is righteous, only one who is good, and that is God alone (Lk 18:19).
That is true – none of us are good on our own, but we see in the account of Genesis, that after He created the world, God said it was “good.” God shares His goodness with His creation, and He shares His goodness with us by His grace.
1 Peter 1:3-4, “His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.”

Hebrews 12:10 “…but God disciplines us for our good, *that we may share in his holiness.” *

Hebrews 12:14 “Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; *without holiness no one will see the Lord.” *

This verse very clearly states sanctification (holiness) is a part of salvation, and it requires our effort (cooperation with God’s grace, not trying to be good on our own). This would not be the case if justification is strictly extrinsic /forensic.

Goodness is intrinsic to God’s nature, not our fallen nature. God must infuse that goodness into our souls. Just as the verses quoted above describe, we become partakers of the divine nature, sharers in God’s holiness. This is what intrinsic justification is about – actually entering into the divine life of God’s grace and holiness–not merely having righteousness credited to us, but actually having it within us.

Jesus says this Himself in Matthew 12:35, "the *good *man brings *good things *out of the good things stored up in him."
Luke 3:9, “The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce *good fruit *will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”
2 Corinthians 9:8, “And God is able to make all grace abound in you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in *every good work.” *
Ephesians 2:10, “For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus *to do good works, *which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
Ephesians 6:7-8, “Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever *good *he does, whether he is slave or free.”
Colossians 1:10, "And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way; bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God"
1 Tim. 6:18, "Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share."

How could we be capable of good works or be described as “good” by Christ (especially when he speaks of good arising from inside us) if we don’t objectively have goodness within us?