Are there ANY VALID reason a Catholic would leave the CC?

[PJM]

=GraceDK;7610992]Dear Juliane… I think all people know this. Lets admit that the scandal became a scandal because people perceived that child molestation had been covered up, priests been moved around instead of dealt with as criminals, after Church authorities had become aware of what was going on.
I am in an environment where we all really admire Pope John 2, but someone told us that regardless of all his great talents, he simply could not believe what was going on and took no action.

This is the sad part. This is the guilt of the Church.

“Took NO ACTIONS?”

My friend this simply is not what in fact happend.

Typically the CC [as do a GREAT many others] choose NOT to do there durty laundry in the public domain; so many actions are not known; does not mean that NO ACTIONS were taken.

One Major action was a IN DEPTH review of Semminaries. HUGE STEP!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Pug]

I assume some leave because they do not believe. From a secular perspective, it is quite reasonable to leave if you do not believe. But, the idea is that one doesn’t just go from belief to unbelief like the wind, willy nilly.

 

[dzheremi]

When I was Catholic, particularly during the period when all the sexual abuse scandals were breaking, I saw many Catholics who seemed to stay out bitterness and to point out all the faults of the Church. Granted, it is somewhat understandable (if not “valid”) to see that kind of reaction in such circumstances, but I always told myself that if I were ever in a position of disagreeing with the Church on some central matter, I wouldn’t be like that. So that’s precisely what I did. I didn’t want to stay in a church I could not be faithful to, poisoning it from within by my disobedience and desire that it be something other than what it is, so I left.

Valid? I don’t care for this way of looking at things. I stuck to my convictions, and left the Church a better person for my time in it. I wish the CC all the best, and still love many people in it, but I feel spiritually healthier outside of it than I did inside of it.

 

[Maureen1125]

I don’t think many are truly leaving as they are simply no coming to mass on a regular basis. After 9/11 and every year on Easter/Christmas mass is standing room only. Those who truly leave wouldn’t bother showing up on those days either.

Is there a valid reason - NO. We all struggle with our faith at one time or another, but leaving the church - or simply not attending mass - is not going to bring us closer to the Lord and strengthen our faith but it will drive us further away.

I was born and raised Catholic and as a teenager I pulled away from the Church because it interferred with the way I wanted to live my life. I wanted to do whatever I wanted without any Catholic Guilt getting in the way. This lasted 2-3yrs and when I came back to church it wasnt’ because I was raised to go to church, so I do, it was because I truly wanted to be there. I LOVE mass and I go as often as I can…generally 4x a week…although there are times were I only get to mass 1x a week but I always make mass a priority.

 

[LilyM]

Maybe some people do this. Not me. I’m actually trying very hard to be obedient to the teachings I don’t understand or disagree with. I just wish I felt like my Pope and Church could recognize what a struggle it is and give those of us who are trying a big once in awhile. I guess I just want a more personal relationship with the Church.

Consider the attitude Our Lord describes in the following passage:

Luke 17:7-10

"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep … Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.’ "

Sounds like you want thanks or some sort of reward for merely doing your duty as every unworthy servant should.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I think there’s a valid reason for leaving any religion, or for that matter, any allegiance (political party, even country) if one truly cannot intellectually accept the core premises. Not every tiny aspect, not every doctrine, not every policy or practice, but the heart of the matter and the major issues which characterize that tradition.

Alternatively (or in addition) if one can assent intellectually but is unwilling to live the moral life required (or adhere to the values/ethics if the tradition is not a religion), then I see no point in violating the tradition, or in obstructing that tradition with futile protest to decimate the core beliefs and central philosophy, in preference to an opposing philosophy.

I think it’s not unusual to have a love-hate relationship at times with one’s religion, or with other affiliations. That internal conflict does not mean one should, let alone must, leave the affiliation, but when it rises to a level of true incompatibility, I think it’s better to be honest & leave, than to be either hypocritical or destructive & stay.

There are people in the RCC (not many on this board) who have virtually created their own very different religion, yet identify as Catholics, attend Mass, and participate in other ways. Yet what they follow is virtually unrecognizable as Catholic from any era, including in the era just following Vatican 2. What they have created is a syncretism of polyglot beliefs: a combination of what they prefer about Catholicism, plus what they select about New Age (practices and philosophies), plus what attracts them in Protestantism and Buddhism, plus a bizarre individual “religion” which may be highly creative but is idiosyncratic to them. These creations, they will admit, do not challenge them to change their lives, but allow them to feel comfortable no matter what their moral choices are. I wouldn’t call that an example of living your religion in a valid way.

I think it would be more valid to take a temporary leave. Lots of people do that. Reversion usually comes with greater sincerity and commitment.

 

[GraceDK]

When I was Catholic, particularly during the period when all the sexual abuse scandals were breaking, I saw many Catholics who seemed to stay out bitterness and to point out all the faults of the Church. Granted, it is somewhat understandable (if not “valid”) to see that kind of reaction in such circumstances, but I always told myself that if I were ever in a position of disagreeing with the Church on some central matter, I wouldn’t be like that. So that’s precisely what I did. I didn’t want to stay in a church I could not be faithful to, poisoning it from within by my disobedience and desire that it be something other than what it is, so I left.

Valid? I don’t care for this way of looking at things. I stuck to my convictions, and left the Church a better person for my time in it. I wish the CC all the best, and still love many people in it, but I feel spiritually healthier outside of it than I did inside of it.

Where do you go to church now?

 

[PJM]

=Pug;7615724]I assume some leave because they do not believe. From a secular perspective, it is quite reasonable to leave if you do not believe. But, the idea is that one doesn’t just go from belief to unbelief like the wind, willy nilly.

Hi Pug,

We AGREE,

But your post raises another question.

Who’s to blame for “unbelief”?

God Bless,
Pat

 

[Pug]

Hi Pug,

We AGREE,

But your post raises another question.

Who’s to blame for “unbelief”?

God Bless,
Pat

Well, personally, I find this a tough one to answer. Someone in a position similar to mine would be aware of Vatican I (an online copy is here):6. If anyone says that the condition of the faithful and those who have not yet attained to the only true faith is alike, so that Catholics may have a just cause for calling in doubt, by suspending their assent, the faith which they have already received from the teaching of the Church, until they have completed a scientific demonstration of the credibility and truth of their faith: let him be anathema.

Dogmatically, there is some sense in which there is no just cause for doubt. What I don’t know is, how does this play out in all situations? I find it difficult to apply to a person who is Catholic by baptism, but never raised to believe. They did or still do have infused faith. But perhaps what is meant here is a personal assent to faith.

And, I suppose one ought to ask, faith in what.

 

[PbloPicasso]

On some level I’m sure it’s true that somehow its our own fault for leaving the Church. But, if that fault falls on our own head, I’d hate to see the sum of the fault placed on clergy that have crossed the line repeatedly. When there is an overwhelming number of Catholics that don’t know the teachings of the Church, 90% I’m told, then how can anyone blame them for not know or understanding? Personally, I believe God allows us room to grow, learn. Everyone learns differently. It doesn’t mean that leaving is okay, but it does show a loving God who patiently awaits the prodigals back into his open arms. There are so many real reasons people leave but later discover their decisions were based on false premises, set up many times by leaders in the Catholic Church. When the clergy and lay leaders continually contradict themselves and each other and yet the so call “teaching’s of the Church” aren’t even being covered, it’s really not fair to point fingers on us for leaving. We should rejoice for the return of those who left.

This is a very difficult question for me. I firmly believe that had someone not misguided me so much I’d be a priest right now instead of where I’m at today - lonely and blue, feeling worthless.

 

[Ranklyfrank]

Given the sad fact that sooooo many folks are choosing to leave the CC; I’m very curious as to why this is? And are there reasons actually of merit and are they justifed?

Pat, I’m guessing that when you say valid or justified, you mean from the standpoint of the Church. So maybe (I’m apologizing here, I didn’t read each posting) there needs to be a bit of clarification?

First, if I’m not mistaken, once one is Baptized, they are regarded as a Catholic forever. So perhaps you are talking about attendance, practice, and belief?

For my part I don’t do any of those for a simple reason: despite my best efforts to elicit from either clerics or literature a practical and intelligible explanation of a life changing experience I had, I was constrained to look elsewhere or go mad. I nearly did. But God is good. I discovered an ancient paradigm that stabilized me and I was not only able to get on with life, but to flourish.

Along the way I discovered many things about the Church which explained its inability to deal with what I was facing, I also discovered that there is no situation not simply explainable through that understandin, whereas in Catholicism there was nothing for me but mysteries and incomprehensibility all covered by “just have faith.”

So whatever the Church’s valid or not reasons there might be for leaving it, mine was because I found an unshakable footing from which to deal. The Church did not give me that. So I left. Had the Church been honest about its roots, motives, history, and what is actually behind its dogma, and what actual guidance it could offer, I might have stayed. But I don’t think that the people “on the ground,” so to speak, have a clue or are even aware of the issues. And if you say what they are, look out; denial and outrage. That’s forty years of experience speaking. And now I see growing disdain for the very tools that could save the ship. Go figure.

 

[PJM]

=GraceDK;7616135]Where do you go to church now?

My dear friend in Christ,

THANK you for sharing!

May I ask you a a couple of questons?

What was your faith-formation like within the CC. What I’m asking is did you have a good undertanding of BOTH what we beleive and WHY we hold these truths?

Many folks it seems have left the CC, NOT understanding, because of poor catechesis, what it is they are abandoning.

I’m puzzeld because of your final statement. It seems to me to be a Moral Imposibility that anyone can “find” a greater spiritual life outside of the CC, than within the Only Sacramental Church. The Only Chuch were one can share “a bit of heaven on earth” and actually MEET there God in Person; and know that there sins HAVE really been fogiven. That being the Only Faith founded by God; not by some mortal being, The CC.

Could. would you please clarify this point?

God Bless you,
Pat

 

[TedDC]

I assume some leave because they do not believe. From a secular perspective, it is quite reasonable to leave if you do not believe. But, the idea is that one doesn’t just go from belief to unbelief like the wind, willy nilly.

In my case, I simply came to the realization that I do not believe many of the essential tenets of the faith. It wasn’t really a matter of leaving the Church, so much as never having been a member in the sense of giving assent to the required beliefs.

 

[PJM]

=TedDC;7620059]In my case, I simply came to the realization that I do not believe many of the essential tenets of the faith. It wasn’t really a matter of leaving the Church, so much as never having been a member in the sense of giving assent to the required beliefs.

So friend, are you saying you never KNEW the Faith you [what and WHY the CC teaches and Holds the Truths She does]? I asume you “inherited”? Does that fact actually justify your decision?

Runing from the truth simply bcause you don’t want to expend the necessary effort to learn it seems lacking and wanting.

Are you aware for example that the NT has OVER 100 references to ONLY One Church?

John 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

**Acts.20:28 **“Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church SINGULAR] of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. “

1 Cor. 1: 10” I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.”

**Eph. 2:19-20 **“So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. “

Did you know that the CC is the ONLY TRUE Bible Church and ONLY Sacramental Church; and the ONLY Church who’s truth you chose to deny; are Guaranteed to be THE TRUTH by Christ Himself?

**John 14: 16-17 ** And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

John 17: 14-19 “I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.”/COLOR]

If you’d care to actually find out what you left, send me a PM.

It’s NOT your fault that you were not taught our faith; it becomes your fault when yo do nothing about it.

May God Bless an Guide you my friend!,
Pat

 

[Pug]

In my case, I simply came to the realization that I do not believe many of the essential tenets of the faith. It wasn’t really a matter of leaving the Church, so much as never having been a member in the sense of giving assent to the required beliefs.

I’ve met others who’ve said something similar to you. My spouse, who meets some standard of having been raised in the faith, didn’t believe as a child, not even in God. He thought it was possible perhaps that it was true, but he never believed any of it until shortly before we married. In the end, he couldn’t stand materialism (uh, maybe he would use the word determinism), which was pretty much the other contender in his life, so at last he was open to consider if Christianity gave life any meaning, and chose to believe.

So, I think you are not alone in sensing that you never gave assent as you grew up.

Did you have faithful, reasonable believers in your life, that you knew of? My spouse didn’t, not as a child. I, on the other hand, did. I’m lucky.

 

[EmeraldWings]

Given the sad fact that sooooo many folks are choosing to leave the CC; I’m very curious as to why this is? And are there reasons actually of merit and are they justifed?

God Bless,
Pat

The church is the Mystical Body of Christ, so no, there is never a justified reason, because even if anyone in the church may err, no matter who they may be, as long as you are Catholic and accept the true teachings of the church, then you are part of the Mystical Body of Christ, despite how much corruption there may be or how many corrupt members, because there is always the truth, and there is only one truth, and that is all you need to worry about,
we must leave the rest in Gods hands, although we must also pray, but we must trust that God is in control and not try to take matters into our own hands…after all, that’s why there are so many protestant religions now…people just couldn’t pray on the matter and leave it in Gods hands, and so now we face the consequences.

as for the cause of unbelief? there is only one cause - lack of understanding, and there are two causes for a lack of understanding, which are ignorance, and your own will.
so in other words, some do not believe because they are ignorant, while others do not believe because they do not want to…it’s really not complicated, and more often than not, people fool themselves(or are fooled) into thinking it is really complicated, but that is merely a trick of the devil to put up a barrier before you to keep you from conversion…but the simple answer is, learn the catholic faith, through means such as the writings of the Saints and doctors of the Church, and especially by prayer.
there is no excuse for disbelief, if someone is having trouble understanding a teaching of the church, then look it up and study and pray on the matter, because God does not expect you or even want you to believe blindly, faith is not believing without reason, it is merely believing without physically seeing, and God wants us to learn and understand His teachings…and believe me, the answers are there, and they are not hard to find, check out www.tanbooks.com or www.fraternitypublications.com or www.audiosancto.org

ok, hope this helps, take care.

 

[TimothyH]

Our Catholic Come Home ministry finds that people leave the church for several reasons.

Some just stop going, gradually fading away. As they get older and go to college or get married, life just gets busy and they just stop going. Soccer games, shopping, school and life just get in the way. Sometimes an illness or other personal crisis stops them from going for a few weeks, one thing leads to another and before you know it, they are just not going to Church any more.

Most of those who say they disagree with some Church teaching like papal infallibility or those who point to hypocrisy of the Church are holding in some sin. These hardly ever point to individual priests or memers of the church hierarchy nor can they point out specific instances. A sure sign is if they say that the Church is too rich or if they bring up the sex scandals. These are usually holding onto some past sin, are engaged in some habitual sin or fear that their something in their past life is below the moral standards of the Church. It is true that many of these have been hurt by people within the Church who have condemn them, including well meaning members of the laity, often family members who simply gave them bad information. Many of these however, simply justify their own sin by stating that the Church is too rich or that the Pope is a hypocrite. A very compassionate priest who is willing to speak frankly about his own weaknesses and a good confession usually fix these right up.

What is interesting in this thread are those who feel that they Church owes them something. Affirmation. Compassion. Why doesn’t the church do this or that for us? Why doesn’t the Church give us more love? Why doesn’t the church give us an uplifting message? I would bet that these are not involved in parish life too deeply. Ask not what your Church can do for you, as it were…

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

as for the cause of unbelief? there is only one cause - lack of understanding, and there are two causes for a lack of understanding, which are ignorance, and your own will.
so in other words, some do not believe because they are ignorant, while others do not believe because they do not want to…it’s really not complicated, and more often than not, people fool themselves(or are fooled) into thinking it is really complicated, but that is merely a trick of the devil to put up a barrier before you to keep you from conversion…but the simple answer is, learn the catholic faith, through means such as the writings of the Saints and doctors of the Church, and especially by prayer.
there is no excuse for disbelief, if someone is having trouble understanding a teaching of the church, then look it up and study and pray on the matter, because God does not expect you or even want you to believe blindly, faith is not believing without reason, it is merely believing without physically seeing, and God wants us to learn and understand His teachings…and believe me, the answers are there, and they are not hard to find, check out www.tanbooks.com or www.fraternitypublications.com or www.audiosancto.org

ok, hope this helps, take care.

I really take issue with these statements.

How can one study the Eucharist? Or the ressurection of Jesus from the dead? How can one study the fact that God came down from heaven and took on human flesh to die for our sins? Reading all the church fathers in the world and studying it in books will not make one believe - at the end of the day it is a concious decision to believe simply because God is who he says he is. Many people who are very ignorant of systematic theology and the blblical basis for Church doctrine have a very deep faith, a very deep belief that God exists and he is who he says he is.

*Then he questioned his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” He replied, “Since childhood. It has often thrown him into fire and into water to kill him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.” Jesus said to him, " ‘If you can!’ Everything is possible to one who has faith." Then the boy’s father cried out, "I do believe, help my unbelief!" (Mark 9:21-24)*The father of the boy posessed by demons questions Jesus’ ability to cure his son. Jesus doesn’t instruct the man to come to a greater understanding of who he is. Jesus simply tells the man that his son can be cured if he will have faith. The man then makes a concious decision to believe and cry’s out to Jesus to help him believe that which is difficult to understand. The man’s response is amazing. I wish Mark had recorded the man’s name because he is one of my heros.

Faith is an act of the will, yes, but it comes before understanding. Submitting your will to the teaching of the Church comes first. Understanding comes later. Yes we can approach the mysteries of faith through reason and intellect but at the end of the day, there is a blind leap one has to make to believe that a man walked out of his own grave.

-Tim-

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

I really take issue with these statements.

How can one study the Eucharist? Or the ressurection of Jesus from the dead? How can one study the fact that God came down from heaven and took on human flesh to die for our sins? Reading all the church fathers in the world and studying it in books will not make one believe - at the end of the day it is a concious decision to believe simply because God is who he says he is. Many people who are very ignorant of systematic theology and the blblical basis for Church doctrine have a very deep faith, a very deep belief that God exists and he is who he says he is.

Then he questioned his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” He replied, “Since childhood. It has often thrown him into fire and into water to kill him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.” Jesus said to him, " ‘If you can!’ Everything is possible to one who has faith." Then the boy’s father cried out, "I do believe, help my unbelief!" (Mark 9:21-24)The father of the boy posessed by demons questions Jesus’ ability to cure his son. Jesus doesn’t instruct the man to come to a greater understanding of who he is. Jesus simply tells the man that his son can be cured if he will have faith. The man then makes a concious decision to believe and cry’s out to Jesus to help him believe that which is difficult to understand. The man’s response is amazing. I wish Mark had recorded the man’s name because he is one of my heros.

Faith is an act of the will, yes, but it comes before understanding. Submitting your will to the teaching of the Church comes first. Understanding comes later. Yes we can approach the mysteries of faith through reason and intellect but at the end of the day, there is a blind leap one has to make to believe that a man walked out of his own grave.

-Tim-

Great answer!

 

[PJM]

=EmeraldWings;7621347]The church is the Mystical Body of Christ, so no, there is never a justified reason, because even if anyone in the church may err, no matter who they may be, as long as you are Catholic and accept the true teachings of the church, then you are part of the Mystical Body of Christ, despite how much corruption there may be or how many corrupt members, because there is always the truth, and there is only one truth, and that is all you need to worry about,
we must leave the rest in Gods hands, although we must also pray, but we must trust that God is in control and not try to take matters into our own hands…after all, that’s why there are so many protestant religions now…people just couldn’t pray on the matter and leave it in Gods hands, and so now we face the consequences.

**as for the cause of unbelief? there is only one cause - lack of understanding, and there are two causes for a lack of understanding, which are ignorance, and your own will.**so in other words, some do not believe because they are ignorant, while others do not believe because they do not want to…it’s really not complicated, and more often than not, people fool themselves(or are fooled) into thinking it is really complicated, but that is merely a trick of the devil to put up a barrier before you to keep you from conversion…but the simple answer is, learn the catholic faith, through means such as the writings of the Saints and doctors of the Church, and especially by prayer.
there is no excuse for disbelief, if someone is having trouble understanding a teaching of the church, then look it up and study and pray on the matter, because God does not expect you or even want you to believe blindly, faith is not believing without reason, it is merely believing without physically seeing, and God wants us to learn and understand His teachings…and believe me, the answers are there, and they are not hard to find, check out www.tanbooks.com or www.fraternitypublications.com or www.audiosancto.org

ok, hope this helps, take care.

GREAT POST! Thanks,

A comment seems necessary on one point however:

as for the cause of unbelief? there is only one cause - lack of understanding, and there are two causes for a lack of understanding, which are ignorance, and your own will.

This is NOT ALWAYS the case. After all,. Faith is a GIFT FROM God. **Rom.9: 18 “**So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.” **Rom. 9:15 **“For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

THIS IS NOT PREDESTINATION!

Only God knows with certainity why this is so; who is given grace and WHY. I SUSPECT however that at least in part it MAY HAVE something to do with how we have lived our lives up to this point. I’m not positive about this because there is an opposing Biblical view:

Luke.15: 7 J"ust so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance"

So even if TRUE Faith is earnestly sought; it remains God’s decision to Grant it or withhold it. We must be mindful that God reads hearts, not just exterior things.

Again, Thanks!
Pat