Are there ANY VALID reason a Catholic would leave the CC?

[EmeraldWings]

I really take issue with these statements.

How can one study the Eucharist? Or the ressurection of Jesus from the dead? How can one study the fact that God came down from heaven and took on human flesh to die for our sins? Reading all the church fathers in the world and studying it in books will not make one believe - at the end of the day it is a concious decision to believe simply because God is who he says he is. Many people who are very ignorant of systematic theology and the blblical basis for Church doctrine have a very deep faith, a very deep belief that God exists and he is who he says he is.

Then he questioned his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” He replied, “Since childhood. It has often thrown him into fire and into water to kill him. But if you can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.” Jesus said to him, " ‘If you can!’ Everything is possible to one who has faith." Then the boy’s father cried out, "I do believe, help my unbelief!" (Mark 9:21-24)The father of the boy posessed by demons questions Jesus’ ability to cure his son. Jesus doesn’t instruct the man to come to a greater understanding of who he is. Jesus simply tells the man that his son can be cured if he will have faith. The man then makes a concious decision to believe and cry’s out to Jesus to help him believe that which is difficult to understand. The man’s response is amazing. I wish Mark had recorded the man’s name because he is one of my heros.

Faith is an act of the will, yes, but it comes before understanding. Submitting your will to the teaching of the Church comes first. Understanding comes later. Yes we can approach the mysteries of faith through reason and intellect but at the end of the day, there is a blind leap one has to make to believe that a man walked out of his own grave.

-Tim-

to understand means to perceive the meaning of, or grasp the idea of, it does not necessarily mean to “know”, even the saints who had no real education in the faith, still understood, by the grace of God, and they understood because they allowed God to let them, it was in their will.
but what i am talking about here is disbelief, to believe is to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof, and to have any faith at all in the truth of course first you must learn the truth, and then you must choose to believe it, but who could choose to believe what they have not learned? that is what i am referring to - not just understanding those things, such as the Eucharist or Resurrection of Christ, but being taught of them,
instead the understanding in those areas lie in what we can learn, for example - Gods love for us,
yes there are mysteries that we cannot understand in this life, and that is where faith comes in, but those mysteries do not hinder us from believing in God, because people believed in God before Jesus came, and back then, what was the cause for belief and disbelief?

as we read in Rom. 10: 17, that faith is the result of teaching “Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ.”
and also in John 10: 38 that Knowledge is an essential element in all faith, and is sometimes spoken of as an equivalent to faith *“But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
and as we read in the Catholic bible dictionary “faith includes in it assent, which is an act of the will in addition to the act of the understanding”…

i am not referring to understanding in every teaching or miracle, but specifically in the belief or disbelief of God and His truth based on our trust in Him and in what is necessary as He has deemed it for us to understand, and we don’t need to understand more than what He has given us to understand in order to believe.

and lastly i just want to clarify, this is not something that is my opinion or something i came up with on my own, i have only learned it from the church and from various writings of the saints, and i really can’t explain it as well as the church or the saints, but i hope i’ve explained it well enough anyways.*

 

[PJM]

=TimothyH;7621529]Our Catholic Come Home ministry finds that people leave the church for several reasons.

Some just stop going, gradually fading away. As they get older and go to college or get married, life just gets busy and they just stop going. Soccer games, shopping, school and life just get in the way. Sometimes an illness or other personal crisis stops them from going for a few weeks, one thing leads to another and before you know it, they are just not going to Church any more.

Most of those who say they disagree with some Church teaching like papal infallibility or those who point to hypocrisy of the Church are holding in some sin. These hardly ever point to individual priests or memers of the church hierarchy nor can they point out specific instances. A sure sign is if they say that the Church is too rich or if they bring up the sex scandals. These are usually holding onto some past sin, are engaged in some habitual sin or fear that their something in their past life is below the moral standards of the Church. It is true that many of these have been hurt by people within the Church who have condemn them, including well meaning members of the laity, often family members who simply gave them bad information. Many of these however, simply justify their own sin by stating that the Church is too rich or that the Pope is a hypocrite. A very compassionate priest who is willing to speak frankly about his own weaknesses and a good confession usually fix these right up.

What is interesting in this thread are those who feel that they Church owes them something. Affirmation. Compassion. Why doesn’t the church do this or that for us? Why doesn’t the Church give us more love? Why doesn’t the church give us an uplifting message? I would bet that these are not involved in parish life too deeply. Ask not what your Church can do for you, as it were…

-Tim-

Hi Tim; THANKS for the Post and your ministery! Wish we had a similar program.

Very interestering POST!

I wonder though if “the Church” DOES need to do more in the way of affirmation?

We compete with MANY THOUSANDS of other Christian churches who excel at this practice. Ought we not to at least try to compete on the “grace-field” they pray on?

Certainly being THEE Sacrametal Church and THEE Bible Church take precedence; but ought that mean that we do not even attempt to “satisfy the entire hunger; the entire thirst?”

Having laid this foundation; I agree completely with you that there are MANY opportunities for this in the K of C, Womens guild, Bible studies, and other opportunites that simply are not taken advantage of.

Further, I agree that while we MUST serve these “hungers”; those seeking MORE is where the burden ought to rest. If one does not avail themselves of the already present opportunities; such a person is at fault!

One can nearly always find semi-legitment excuses not to do this or that. But I suggest; that one of the TRULY great errors of the CC, is that she seems reluctant to teach and preach on the absolute need for sufering and sacrifie.

Only fools think thy can and ought to share in Christ Glorly without also sharing in Christ Suffering. ** Phil.1: 29 **“For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “ "Take up yor Cross DAILY and follow ME is repeated FIVE times in the Bible! OBVIOUSLY it’s a very important message.

Jesus speaking about the recent convert: Paul; "**Acts.9: 16 **“for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Rom.8: 17 ***“and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.” ***

So eveyone has a role they must accept!

GREAT POST!

Thanks you!
Pat

 

[cho_pilo]

Given the sad fact that sooooo many folks are choosing to leave the CC; I’m very curious as to why this is? And are there reasons actually of merit and are they justifed?

God Bless,
Pat

Church laws can change as the Church faces new circumstances to which Christians have to adapt. The moral obligation to observe church laws is relative to the seriousness of the law insofar as it affects our relationship with God and others. When the Church changed her laws on fasting, the pope made it clear that the Christian is still obligated to deny himself in order to follow Christ. He went on to add that fasting has been a traditional means of expressing our desire to deny ourselves in order to follow Christ. Yet, when fasting laws for Lent were dropped, many Catholics simply quit fasting. Their fasting was not being done out of personal response to Christ but out of legalistic attitude that Catholics should fast simply because they are told to do so. Freedom is found not in throwing off laws but in making them part of our own personal response and commitment to Christ.

 

[Ranklyfrank]

Church laws can change as the Church faces new circumstances to which Christians have to adapt. The moral obligation to observe church laws is relative to the seriousness of the law insofar as it affects our relationship with God and others. When the Church changed her laws on fasting, the pope made it clear that the Christian is still obligated to deny himself in order to follow Christ. He went on to add that fasting has been a traditional means of expressing our desire to deny ourselves in order to follow Christ. Yet, when fasting laws for Lent were dropped, many Catholics simply quit fasting. Their fasting was not being done out of personal response to Christ but out of legalistic attitude that Catholics should fast simply because they are told to do so. Freedom is found not in throwing off laws but in making them part of our own personal response and commitment to Christ.

Actually, like so many things, similarly to the story of cutting off the ends of the ham, such practices used to have a practical application which was deliberately used in a specific way, far from just being a general recommendation or practice. Therein lies the danger of formalizing and popularizing a practice aimed at inner transformation, as is what the Church allegedly did in the first few centuries after Jesus. So in a sense both the Pope’s statement alluded to above and the last quoted sentence yet lack the fundamental “how” and “why” in detail.

 

[Ranklyfrank]

Our Catholic Come Home ministry finds that people leave the church for several reasons.

Some just stop going, gradually fading away. As they get older and go to college or get married, life just gets busy and they just stop going. Soccer games, shopping, school and life just get in the way. Sometimes an illness or other personal crisis stops them from going for a few weeks, one thing leads to another and before you know it, they are just not going to Church any more.

Most of those who say they disagree with some Church teaching like papal infallibility or those who point to hypocrisy of the Church are holding in some sin. These hardly ever point to individual priests or memers of the church hierarchy nor can they point out specific instances. A sure sign is if they say that the Church is too rich or if they bring up the sex scandals. These are usually holding onto some past sin, are engaged in some habitual sin or fear that their something in their past life is below the moral standards of the Church. It is true that many of these have been hurt by people within the Church who have condemn them, including well meaning members of the laity, often family members who simply gave them bad information. Many of these however, simply justify their own sin by stating that the Church is too rich or that the Pope is a hypocrite. A very compassionate priest who is willing to speak frankly about his own weaknesses and a good confession usually fix these right up.

All that serves as a wonderfully useful rationalization for many within the Church. It holds no water in my case and many that I know of. “‘Try’ again, Mortimer!”

 

[PJM]

":

cho pilo, post:63, topic:230562"]
Church laws can change as the Church faces new circumstances to which Christians have to adapt. The moral obligation to observe church laws is relative to the seriousness of the law insofar as it affects our relationship with God and others. When the Church changed her laws on fasting, the pope made it clear that the Christian is still obligated to deny himself in order to follow Christ. He went on to add that fasting has been a traditional means of expressing our desire to deny ourselves in order to follow Christ. Yet, when fasting laws for Lent were dropped, many Catholics simply quit fasting. Their fasting was not being done out of personal response to Christ but out of legalistic attitude that Catholics should fast simply because they are told to do so. Freedom is found not in throwing off laws but in making them part of our own personal response and commitment to Christ.

In COMPLEE agrement on this!

So why my friend is it {your faith] complicated?

God Bless,
Pat

 

[PbloPicasso]

Expanding on my comments earlier it should be noted, as an example of what was happening in the Church during my time (70’s & 80’s), though born early 60’s, I was exposed to a Protestant looking Catholicism. I loved the old Catholic Encyclopedias my grandparents had on their shelf, but was under the impression that was no longer valid, which really confused me a lot. I fell in love with that concept of Catholicism in 1977, and was exposed to the modernized concept of the Church, which was mostly Protestant looking. In fact, the majority of the youth in my group left the Church for Protestant faiths. Several of them turned out to embrace alternative life styles, objectively wrong, and others returned.

An old girlfriend of mine from high school married a guy, stopped practicing and came back right before her daughter died in a fatal car accident. Fortunately she was already home and found solace in the Lord. She teaches CCD to youth now on the side, without pay. I said that because I recently had my heart cut out from a manipulative DRE and his youth director that got offended when I showed amazement that she was actually paid. I meant it only in a positive way in that she was blessed because most youth directors I know from my life were not paid at all. They took from their own home budget to make things happen. Another story for another time, but it conveys the problems I’ve experience in the Church since I returned 4 years ago.

There are so many “Professional Catholics” as Pope Benedict XVI said recently that are in obvious dissent that its almost impossible to know the truth about the teachings of the Church without obsessing over it. In fact, I’ve been accused by well meaning priests of being scrupulous, but it isn’t true. I’ve just learned not to trust them or the laity in positions because I’ve repeatedly discovered that they were simply wrong in telling me the things they told me. The most recent one was the “blessing” by lay people during mass. Ironically within 2 weeks of asking this question to the priest he conveyed an “update” during mass that the bishop of our diocese instructed him to tell us, the lay EMHCs, to no longer “bless” those coming forward because only ordained ministers possess that ability. So now we place our hand on their shoulder and say “may God bless you”, which is another side track unacceptable during communion IMHO. The point is that this is a hot topic and did not exist before I left the Catholic faith in 1989. Being forced into isolation by military and procelytized by anti-Catholic clergy in the Army. Yes, it actually happens. So, my excuse is rooted in lying Catholics, Protestants and family members.

The main thing we should all remember is that God loves us so much that he gave his only begotten son to live, die and rise again so that we might have life, and have it more abundantly. WOW! I’m ready to go into song, Acappella style. Church of Christ style. It seems that over the past few months I find myself growing closer to Christ, rather than the Saints like I did in the beginning of my conversion to the Catholic faith. I believe the Church is the “one holy catholic apostolic church”, but I find too much emphasis, well intended, on the Saints. They are important, but we must not subdue Christ to concentrate more on those following Christ. They pray for us. We seek their intercession much like we ask each other to pray for us. Saints can pray in a way much more perfectly than us because they have been made perfect. But ultimately we seek Christ’s divine intercession, really. They all know this. This is a difficult thing for Protestants and non-Christians to accept. In some ways they’re right, but not quite completely. Well meaning Christians on both sides (really multiple perspectives) sometimes misunderstand and misstate Church teaching that ultimately confuses everyone. Boy could I elaborate on this point. SO many stories. Another time.

There are thousands, if not millions of unknown Saints that have gone unnoticed. I wish there was more emphasis placed on letting people know. JPII tried to do this I believe. But it seems to have gone unoticed. If you really go back and read the real lives of the SAints you’ll find that they also tried to teach the very same thing. St. Francis, St. Therese, the little flower, St. Therese of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Faustina, St. Ignatius of Loyola, etc. Unknown Saints die everyday in the secret of their unknown lowliness or ordinary lives. We just see the ones that a spot light has been shined upon. If you know about the San Damiano Cross you’d know about the illustration portrayed on it as the “Unknown Saints”.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Casting a thought out there, God can set aside any law the Church makes, or makes out of step with the reality in someones life. That doesn’t mean the Church doesn’t have the authority to make such laws to bind and loose. But God’s love transcends all and reigns over all. God sees things we do not see. Though a church law may be necessary in its intention, it may not apply for reasons that has not been revealed to those making the law. I believe that is what the Church even teaches us. But this goes with much criticism from those perceived on the right, or conservative. For example, those who believe non-Catholics are bound to hell are misguided by other minions nesting in the Church. Though they may intend good they are being influenced by the same evil all of us deal with in the world. Satan is out to hurt God’s greatest, most loved, creation - MANKIND. I know all sorts of Catholics with opposing views. As critical as we are about our clergy (and each other) especially about our bishops, we need to submit to their authority and let God sort out the weeds in the end. Christ tells us to obey what they say, not what they do. But the meaning of that statement assumes they are teaching the truth. Don’t you feel like we’re playing Russian Roulette sometimes? I do. But I assume they are teaching the truth when what they say coincides with Church teaching. Confused yet? I think St. Faustina has it right with Divine Mercy. “JESUS, I TRUST IN YOU”

Glad I could make things more convoluted. If you do the research 2 entities emerge that both claim to be the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”. Only these 2 entities can be even close. The Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church. I propose the Orthodox Catholic Church as the true Church, that together we stand firm, not separated. So some communicating needs to take place. I consider myself an orthodox Catholic with leanings toward the eastern Church. So I like the term Orthodox Catholic. Let me have that crosier for a day. I’ll mend the fences (yea, right).

I believe that celibate priests are wonderful, but the Church may need to open the door to married men to the priesthood again - at least for a time - after all, we live in a different world now. I think married priests along with their wives, trained in marriage counseling could really help out a broken vocation to marriage . However, its true that other problems will result and that is how the leaders might seek help from the Eastern Church to deal with those new problems. Just don’t forget that our holy bishops are always chosen from celibate men. I said all of this because I know far too many “former” priests - particularly being a returning Catholic. Those men are now married men. There are priests I know that would make great husbands and great fathers. Unfortunately I wonder about others in how they ever got through the process. Sexual temptation is very difficult to handle and a major distraction to men trying to be holy. It’s a good vocation, but I’m not convinced that all of the men chosen for this vocation are necessarily the best for the vocation of priest. I come from a family of many Protestant clergy with their own trials. God has a plan for all of us.

Sorry for the grammar, getting ready for a midterm.

 

[GraceDK]

**My dear friend in Christ,
THANK you for sharing!

May I ask you a a couple of questons?**

Sure.

**What was your faith-formation like within the CC. **

Lousy. The next biggest parish in my country. Led by liberals. The priest hesitated to let me become a member of the church because he found me too radical (praying too much in front of the tabernacle… etc) The faithformation was totally without any teaching and without prayer. The parish youth group was a bunch of people sitting around with beer and talking about how they had hang overs in church on Sunday mornings. They didn’t pray nor read the Bible.

What I’m asking is did you have a good undertanding of BOTH what we beleive and WHY we hold these truths?

I met Jesus outside the Church… through miracles in the pentecostal church (I saw them with my own eyes) and mainly Orthodox mystical litterature. It was the sweetest time of my life… I came in contact with Medjugorje and what I met there was a lively Christianity. I was in love with the Eucharist and confession, so I became Catholic. Later on I found that I felt a lot more at home with the Pentecostals. I came into their youth group - no drinking to get drunk, no premarital sex etc - They shared my love for Jesus and my enthusiasm. I saw the Acts of the apostles lived out in that Church… there were a number of things which took place at sunday meetings which my Catholic parish had totally overlooked is in the Bible.
I fell in love with Pentecostalism and yet I knew it was Jesus in the Eucharist… it was then I started to really read into the Catholic faith and made a huge study on apologetics, church history, church documents and teaching etc.
I can say that the teachings of the Church make sense to me and I believe in them, but our way of having church is continuously a stumblingblock for me.

Many folks it seems have left the CC, NOT understanding, because of poor catechesis, what it is they are abandoning.

I am not sure I agree with that. I believe that people both can and do meet the Living and Active Christ in other Churches.
The times where I have fantasised about leaving Catholicism it wasn’t because I didn’t know what the Church teaches nor that i didn’t agree, because I did. But Because I feel like there is a difference between saying we have a fullness of the faith and then seeing churches with no fellowship, no joy, no charismatic manifestations etc. For me we have the fullness dormant or only theoretically. The Church structure has become elitist. Everything is focused on the priest. This structure is unbiblical and it also means often that where the priest is bad, the whole parish crumbles or only the really strong survive.

I’m puzzeld because of your final statement. It seems to me to be a Moral Imposibility that anyone can “find” a greater spiritual life outside of the CC, than within the Only Sacramental Church. The Only Chuch were one can share “a bit of heaven on earth” and actually MEET there God in Person; and know that there sins HAVE really been fogiven. That being the Only Faith founded by God; not by some mortal being, The CC.

We are not only spiritual beings. The Church should not only be about your own little private meeting with the Body and Blood of the Lord. Indeed we have many parishioners who don’t even believe in this presense because the priests refuses to preach on salvation history from the pulpit. (I think in America you have better preaching) or people start not caring because the church seems like a n empty structure without vitality.
The majority of really faithfilled people I have known have not been Catholics. Often Catholics act out of their own strength instead of the power of the Holy Spirit. They speak a ton about theology and the right interpretation and in that way its like rabbinical Judaism but if you ask if they will lay their hands on a brother and pray for his physical healing they get mute and point at the priest-… who will get mute too… If you look for anyone with a gift of prophesy who is allowed to take his rightful place in the congregation…you have to go to the Evangelicals even though Paul said its a gift that all should strive for…
Many of my Evangelical friends hear the voice of God on a daily basis. Many of the elite Catholics will rather speak about the liturgy (and its abuses) than about what Jesus has done in their own lives. I say this as a Catholic who lives with very faithful Catholics… They are wonderful ethical people… but that extra seems lacking.

I used to be very happy in the church because I was filled by God directly through faith… but as soon as I started to really need the Body of believers - because of faith crisis - I felt like I was on my own.

Could. would you please clarify this point?

I have … you might not like it… But I truly believe we can learn as much and as crucial things from our Evangelicals brethren as they can learn from us. And I hardly have the need to go and tell them to become Catholics when I dont feel fed myself where I am.
But as I said… much has maybe also to do with me being in Europe… Then again… I think the problem is structural and the change therefore has to come from the Catholic leaders.

God Bless you,
Pat

God bless you too Pat

 

[PbloPicasso]

“Took NO ACTIONS?”

My friend this simply is not what in fact happend.

Typically the CC [as do a GREAT many others] choose NOT to do there durty laundry in the public domain; so many actions are not known; does not mean that NO ACTIONS were taken.

One Major action was a IN DEPTH review of Semminaries. HUGE STEP!

God Bless,
Pat

Though what you’ve said is true it does not illustrate the impact that the inaction, a fact, had on those of us truly hurt, destroyed to some degree. The bishops not getting directly involved by apologizing to those of us who were faithful in turning in a pervert that molested us was abasolutely unacceptable. It took me years to get to the point where I could or would even talk about it. It ruined my life. But I am recovering after running into charitable priests that openly make bold statements in apologizing formally. I never received any apology from the bishop or even his right hand man. It would hav been appropriate, much like our own Presidents or Prime Ministers do when a tragedy occurs within their own country. Those that do not exhibit a callousness towards victims. To this day I’ve never received anything from the diocese addressing this statement. All they did was cover their financial behinds out of fear of reprisal. If that’s all the Churchis about, keeping their spoils, then it reaps what it sews.

It will take much more Saintly acts of charity to begin the mending of hearts. The Eastern church will continue to distrust the West until a certain humbleness of heart enters in the communications. Historically there is a lot of blood on the hands of leaders in the Church whether directly or indirectly. Those that forsake the faith will pay for their wrong doings. But if we all join in in keeping the leaders honest and accountable then fallen away Catholics will have a greater chance of returning to the CC.

I learned something very valuable while away that would never have occured had I not learned. People are people no matter where you go. Nothing is new under the sun. We must all join in prayer to beg God’s mercy on His Church and on the whole world.

 

[GraceDK]

Though what you’ve said is true it does not illustrate the impact that the inaction, a fact, had on those of us truly hurt, destroyed to some degree. The bishops not getting directly involved by apologizing to those of us who were faithful in turning in a pervert that molested us was abasolutely unacceptable. It took me years to get to the point where I could or would even talk about it. It ruined my life. But I am recovering after running into charitable priests that openly make bold statements in apologizing formally. must all join in prayer to beg God’s mercy on His Church and on the whole world.

Brother or sister.

I agree with you.
Did you know that Pope John Paul 2 actually apologised in one of his books to women in generel for the abuse and dominance they have suffered at the hands of Christian men?
As a woman this is highly important because when people refuse to see the wounds, then the wounds cannot heal properly.

During the most heated days of the scandal I was satisfied to experience different priests stand up at the pulpit and really admit the sad situation of the church and how inexcusable it is and how much people have suffered.
Some of my more conservative friends thought this behaviour inappropriate but I thought it was the right thing to do.

Its like the Holocaust. Some people say we heard enough from the Jews and they are just making a financial benefit of the tragedy… but they lost 6 million people and no one was spared the pain of the slaughter of these innocents. So if you tell a Jew its time to move on, you precisely get the unhealed and bitter person whose pain was not recognized.

As for you… I am really sorry for what you went through, and I hope you will get the apology. Did you ever read the popes letters to the bishops about the scandals? I was deeply impressed.

 

[PJM]

=PbloPicasso;7624554]Expanding on my comments earlier it should be noted, as an example of what was happening in the Church during my time (70’s & 80’s), though born early 60’s, I was exposed to a Protestant looking Catholicism. I loved the old Catholic Encyclopedias my grandparents had on their shelf, but was under the impression that was no longer valid, which really confused me a lot. I fell in love with that concept of Catholicism in 1977, and was exposed to the modernized concept of the Church, which was mostly Protestant looking. In fact, the majority of the youth in my group left the Church for Protestant faiths. Several of them turned out to embrace alternative life styles, objectively wrong, and others returned.

An old girlfriend of mine from high school married a guy, stopped practicing and came back right before her daughter died in a fatal car accident. Fortunately she was already home and found solace in the Lord. She teaches CCD to youth now on the side, without pay. I said that because I recently had my heart cut out from a manipulative DRE and his youth director that got offended when I showed amazement that she was actually paid. I meant it only in a positive way in that she was blessed because most youth directors I know from my life were not paid at all. They took from their own home budget to make things happen. Another story for another time, but it conveys the problems I’ve experience in the Church since I returned 4 years ago.

There are so many “Professional Catholics” as Pope Benedict XVI said recently that are in obvious dissent that its almost impossible to know the truth about the teachings of the Church without obsessing over it. In fact, I’ve been accused by well meaning priests of being scrupulous, but it isn’t true. I’ve just learned not to trust them or the laity in positions because I’ve repeatedly discovered that they were simply wrong in telling me the things they told me. The most recent one was the “blessing” by lay people during mass. Ironically within 2 weeks of asking this question to the priest he conveyed an “update” during mass that the bishop of our diocese instructed him to tell us, the lay EMHCs, to no longer “bless” those coming forward because only ordained ministers possess that ability. So now we place our hand on their shoulder and say “may God bless you”, which is another side track unacceptable during communion IMHO. The point is that this is a hot topic and did not exist before I left the Catholic faith in 1989. Being forced into isolation by military and procelytized by anti-Catholic clergy in the Army. Yes, it actually happens. So, my excuse is rooted in lying Catholics, Protestants and family members.

The main thing we should all remember is that God loves us so much that he gave his only begotten son to live, die and rise again so that we might have life, and have it more abundantly. WOW! I’m ready to go into song, Acappella style. Church of Christ style. It seems that over the past few months I find myself growing closer to Christ, rather than the Saints like I did in the beginning of my conversion to the Catholic faith. I believe the Church is the “one holy catholic apostolic church”, but I find too much emphasis, well intended, on the Saints. They are important, but we must not subdue Christ to concentrate more on those following Christ. They pray for us. We seek their intercession much like we ask each other to pray for us. Saints can pray in a way much more perfectly than us because they have been made perfect. But ultimately we seek Christ’s divine intercession, really. They all know this. This is a difficult thing for Protestants and non-Christians to accept. In some ways they’re right, but not quite completely. Well meaning Christians on both sides (really multiple perspectives) sometimes misunderstand and misstate Church teaching that ultimately confuses everyone. Boy could I elaborate on this point. SO many stories. Another time.

There are thousands, if not millions of unknown Saints that have gone unnoticed. I wish there was more emphasis placed on letting people know. JPII tried to do this I believe. But it seems to have gone unoticed. If you really go back and read the real lives of the SAints you’ll find that they also tried to teach the very same thing. St. Francis, St. Therese, the little flower, St. Therese of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Faustina, St. Ignatius of Loyola, etc. Unknown Saints die everyday in the secret of their unknown lowliness or ordinary lives. We just see the ones that a spot light has been shined upon. If you know about the San Damiano Cross you’d know about the illustration portrayed on it as the “Unknown Saints”.

GLAD your BACK HOME!
Nice post.

It is quite common to pay FT DRE’s.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[TedDC]

Our Catholic Come Home ministry finds that people leave the church for several reasons.

Some just stop going, gradually fading away. As they get older and go to college or get married, life just gets busy and they just stop going. Soccer games, shopping, school and life just get in the way. Sometimes an illness or other personal crisis stops them from going for a few weeks, one thing leads to another and before you know it, they are just not going to Church any more.

Most of those who say they disagree with some Church teaching like papal infallibility or those who point to hypocrisy of the Church are holding in some sin. These hardly ever point to individual priests or memers of the church hierarchy nor can they point out specific instances. A sure sign is if they say that the Church is too rich or if they bring up the sex scandals. These are usually holding onto some past sin, are engaged in some habitual sin or fear that their something in their past life is below the moral standards of the Church. It is true that many of these have been hurt by people within the Church who have condemn them, including well meaning members of the laity, often family members who simply gave them bad information. Many of these however, simply justify their own sin by stating that the Church is too rich or that the Pope is a hypocrite. A very compassionate priest who is willing to speak frankly about his own weaknesses and a good confession usually fix these right up.

What is interesting in this thread are those who feel that they Church owes them something. Affirmation. Compassion. Why doesn’t the church do this or that for us? Why doesn’t the Church give us more love? Why doesn’t the church give us an uplifting message? I would bet that these are not involved in parish life too deeply. Ask not what your Church can do for you, as it were…

-Tim-

Tim,

Although you may not have intended it to be, I found your post quite offensive in its questioning of the sincerity of those who disagree with teachings of the Catholic Church or actions of its leadership.

As for your ministry, well, you’ve lost one potential customer. If the Catholic Church is populated by people with your smug, sanctimonious and judgmental attitude, it’s not a “home” I want any part of.

 

[fred_conty]

When I was Catholic, particularly during the period when all the sexual abuse scandals were breaking, I saw many Catholics who seemed to stay out bitterness and to point out all the faults of the Church. Granted, it is somewhat understandable (if not “valid”) to see that kind of reaction in such circumstances, but I always told myself that if I were ever in a position of disagreeing with the Church on some central matter, I wouldn’t be like that. So that’s precisely what I did. I didn’t want to stay in a church I could not be faithful to, poisoning it from within by my disobedience and desire that it be something other than what it is, so I left.

Valid? I don’t care for this way of looking at things. I stuck to my convictions, and left the Church a better person for my time in it. I wish the CC all the best, and still love many people in it, but I feel spiritually healthier outside of it than I did inside of it.

Woud you share with us the reason why you left? I would really like to hear from you.​

Behold the Lamb of God, all who eat, all who drink, will live.

 

[PJM]

=TedDC;7627497]Tim,

Although you may not have intended it to be, I found your post quite offensive in its questioning of the sincerity of those who disagree with teachings of the Catholic Church or actions of its leadership.

As for your ministry, well, you’ve lost one potential customer. If the Catholic Church is populated by people with your smug, sanctimonious and judgmental attitude, it’s not a “home” I want any part of.

Hi Ted,

TWO “wrongs” can’t ever = right…RIGHT?

Christ founded ONLY one Church; One Faith [set of beliefs] on One New Covenant.

In rereading the post I can see * what your upset about.

I don’t think that was the intent?

Salvation is a Personal choice; to permit someone else to make it for you seems to be seriously shot-sighted.

The ONLY perfect humans were he who Died for you, and His Mother.

"Forgive us our trasspases “AS WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRASSPASS AGAINST US”. [Lord’s prayer]…

Are we not all obligated to live and believe as we pray?

ALL truth on all Faith issus, nd ALL Moral issues, are deposited by Christ in His Catholic Church.

FYI… Thre are in excess of 100 passages in the NT speaking of ONLY one Church and One Faith.

Christ Himself insures the TRUTH of the CC Teachings on these wo topics.

Eph. 4: 4 -8“ There is one body [Only One Church] and one Spirit, Only One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, Only One God] ONLY one faith, [Only One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. "

***John 17: 14-19 **“I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. **Sanctify them in the truth; **thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.”

You may wish to pray about your decission?

If you have any questions about our Catholic Faith, PM me and I’ll answer them for you.

May God Bless and guide you my friend!

Pat*

 

[BrushedByAngels]

When I was Catholic, particularly during the period when all the sexual abuse scandals were breaking, I saw many Catholics who seemed to stay out bitterness and to point out all the faults of the Church. Granted, it is somewhat understandable (if not “valid”) to see that kind of reaction in such circumstances, but I always told myself that if I were ever in a position of disagreeing with the Church on some central matter, I wouldn’t be like that. So that’s precisely what I did. I didn’t want to stay in a church I could not be faithful to, poisoning it from within by my disobedience and desire that it be something other than what it is, so I left.

Valid? I don’t care for this way of looking at things. I stuck to my convictions, and left the Church a better person for my time in it. I wish the CC all the best, and still love many people in it, but I feel spiritually healthier outside of it than I did inside of it.

What church do you go to now? Just curious to which religion was more suitable to your needs.

 

[yosephdaviyd]

Given the sad fact that sooooo many folks are choosing to leave the CC; I’m very curious as to why this is? And are there reasons actually of merit and are they justifed?

God Bless,
Pat

I have found that the only reason why people leave the Catholic Church is for the same reason why everyone isn’t Catholic. That is, they don’t believe in or don’t know what the Catholic Church teaches about the Holy Eucharist. For, certainly if they did they would never put themselves in a position to go a day without the bread of life.

 

[Heliotropium]

Given the sad fact that sooooo many folks are choosing to leave the CC; I’m very curious as to why this is? And are there reasons actually of merit and are they justifed?

God Bless,
Pat

Leaving the Catholic Faith is never justified period. Those who are Catholic and leave are still Catholics just fallen away ones. The sacrament of baptism is a sacrament of Christs Church and can be performed by anyone who is baptized. All baptisms (regardless of Church affiliation) are Catholic baptisms and therefore imprint the persons soul with the mark of the Catholic Church. In short all Christians are Catholics. Some just dont know it yet

 

[PbloPicasso]

Leaving the Catholic Faith is never justified period. Those who are Catholic and leave are still Catholics just fallen away ones. The sacrament of baptism is a sacrament of Christs Church and can be performed by anyone who is baptized. All baptisms (regardless of Church affiliation) are Catholic baptisms and therefore imprint the persons soul with the mark of the Catholic Church. In short all Christians are Catholics. Some just dont know it yet

EXACTLY. But if everyone lies to you its kind of hard to know whether your first statement is true to them. I may take falling on their tail end to figure it out. God blessed me, he can certainly bless others. And He doesn’t even like me.

 

[dzheremi]

I disagree. I didn’t fall away from the Catholic Church. I didn’t slowly decrease my Mass attendance or devotions. I made the conscious decision to leave. And if all baptisms are Catholic baptisms, then this must be news to the churches that require a person to be rebaptized due to the questionable nature of Catholic baptism.

I’m sorry, but the Catholic Church is not the Borg. Your Church can consider me whatever you want, but I’m not a Catholic. I purposely do not adhere to the faith as practiced by those in union with Rome.