Are there people here at CAF, Catholics and non-Catholics that for the sake of ecumenicalism are compromising their own faith?

[Catherine_M_L]

Jimmy B et al,

Hi. Has anybody read the Vatican II document on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintergratio?

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

The Church is very clear on this matter. We are NEVER to compromise Truth, especially not for the sake of ecumenism.

“Nothing is so foreign to the spirit of ecumenism as a false irenicism, in which the purity of Catholic doctrine suffers loss and its genuine and certain meaning is clouded.”

We are always to do exactly as St. Peter instructed us, “Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence” (1 Pet. 3:15 RSV). That is the entire basis for the whole field of apologetics, defense of the Faith.

It is tricky to counter nasty-spirited attackers with gentleness, but that is exactly what we are to do. Speak the Truth! Do not compromise it! Yet, deliver your words in a loving tone. Say a quickie prayer to the Holy Spirit in your head, something like, “Holy Spirit, please help me.” Take a deep breath. Smile a little. Don’t attack people. That isn’t ecumenism, apologetics, or even good preaching; that is just bad manners.

Delivering the Truth in love is NOT the same as compromising the Truth. The tough part for all of us is remembering that to really love someone as God loves us, we MUST give the whole Truth, as the Church teaches, even when it is difficult, even when it will make us unpopular or unwelcome, even when it will cause divisions among our families and our friends.

"“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.” (John 15:18 RSV)

"“Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.” (Mt. 10:34-39 RSV)

 

[Contarini]

Jimmy B et al,

Hi. Has anybody read the Vatican II document on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintergratio?

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

The Church is very clear on this matter. We are NEVER to compromise Truth, especially not for the sake of ecumenism.

As far as I can see, no one has yet provided a single example of someone compromising their beliefs on this forum for the sake of ecumenism!

Edwin

 

[Jimmy_B]

I may be one of the “too nice” people on here. I simply feel that nothing is gained in argument. Only in speaking calmly to each other can we hear. We hurt ourselves when we say non-Catholics are evil, then try to tell them how good we are.

I am not willing to give up my faith, or water it down to make someone happy, though.

Hello ralphinal,

I agree with you but I would like to know what you and others here feel about the words, “sin”, “sinner”, “heresy”, “heretic”, “blasphemy” and “hypocrite” and other words and definitions like these that were used by the early Christians. Is the use of these words today “off-limits”, if we are to be “charitable”?

Nothing personal, this is more of a general comment…you know I like you…I’m just wondering…

Peace

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy B et al,

Hi. Has anybody read the Vatican II document on ecumenism, Unitatis Redintergratio?

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

The Church is very clear on this matter. We are NEVER to compromise Truth, especially not for the sake of ecumenism.

“Nothing is so foreign to the spirit of ecumenism as a false irenicism, in which the purity of Catholic doctrine suffers loss and its genuine and certain meaning is clouded.”

We are always to do exactly as St. Peter instructed us, “Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence” (1 Pet. 3:15 RSV). That is the entire basis for the whole field of apologetics, defense of the Faith.

It is tricky to counter nasty-spirited attackers with gentleness, but that is exactly what we are to do. Speak the Truth! Do not compromise it! Yet, deliver your words in a loving tone. Say a quickie prayer to the Holy Spirit in your head, something like, “Holy Spirit, please help me.” Take a deep breath. Smile a little. Don’t attack people. That isn’t ecumenism, apologetics, or even good preaching; that is just bad manners.

Delivering the Truth in love is NOT the same as compromising the Truth. The tough part for all of us is remembering that to really love someone as God loves us, we MUST give the whole Truth, as the Church teaches, even when it is difficult, even when will make us unpopular or unwelcome, even when it will cause divisions among our families and our friends.

"“If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.” (John 15:18 RSV)

"“Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.” (Mt. 10:34-39 RSV)

Thank you Catherine M L …Great post!

Peace

 

[Contarini]

Hello ralphinal,

I agree with you but I would like to know what you and others here feel about the words, “sin”, “sinner”, “heresy”, “heretic”, “blasphemy” and “hypocrite” and other words and definitions like these that were used by the early Christians. Is the use of these words today “off-limits”, if we are to be “charitable”?

Nothing personal, this is more of a general comment…you know I like you…I’m just wondering…

Peace

I think “sin,” “heresy,” and “blasphemy” are OK in the right place. “Sinner,” “heretic,” and certainly “hypocrite” are best avoided unless you are a divinely inspired prophet.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Hello ralphinal,

I agree with you but I would like to know what you and others here feel about the words, “sin”, “sinner”, “heresy”, “heretic”, “blasphemy” and “hypocrite” and other words and definitions like these that were used by the early Christians. Is the use of these words today “off-limits”, if we are to be “charitable”?

Nothing personal, this is more of a general comment…you know I like you…I’m just wondering…

Peace

I think “sin,” “heresy,” and “blasphemy” are OK in the right place. (I mean, of course, the use of those terms, not the things themselves!) “Sinner,” “heretic,” and certainly “hypocrite” are best avoided unless you are a divinely inspired prophet.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Jimmy_B]

As far as I can see, no one has yet provided a single example of someone compromising their beliefs on this forum for the sake of ecumenism!

Edwin

Hello Contarini,

Ok, here is an example…How about when one Catholic here, “jumps on” another Catholic here, who is involved in a theological debate with a non-Catholic. This happen all the time here, where some Catholics have a subjective belief that another Catholic isn’t being as “nice” as they would like them to be…

Are you implying that this type of thing never occurs here? Some Catholics here, for example, feel that it is more important to appear “nice” to non-Catholics then it is to support another Catholic who shares the same beliefs, because they disagree with that particular Catholic’s style or approach to defending their Catholic Faith.

Please correct me if you disagree.

Peace

 

[ralphinal]

Hello ralphinal,

I agree with you but I would like to know what you and others here feel about the words, “sin”, “sinner”, “heresy”, “heretic”, “blasphemy” and “hypocrite” and other words and definitions like these that were used by the early Christians. Is the use of these words today “off-limits”, if we are to be “charitable”?

Nothing personal, this is more of a general comment…you know I like you…I’m just wondering…

Peace

Personally, I may be too quick on hypocrite. I tend to use it in real life way too much.

Sin is easy. either it is or it is not.

Sinner, one who sins. Problem is I do not know the content of their heart.

heretic is somewhat problematic. To me, a heretic has to start from knowing the truth, then go against it. Otherwise, they are just wrong.

All of these words can be used charitably. Problem is the sentence tends to include the proverbial “Jane, you ignorant slut.”

 

[Cathdefender]

Hello Contarini,

Ok, here is an example…How about when one Catholic here, “jumps on” another Catholic here, who is involved in a theological debate with a non-Catholic. This happen all the time here, where some Catholics have a subjective belief that another Catholic isn’t being as “nice” as they would like them to be…

Are you implying that this type of thing never occurs here? Some Catholics here, for example, feel that it is more important to appear “nice” to non-Catholics then it is to support another Catholic who shares the same beliefs, because they disagree with that particular Catholic’s style or approach to defending their Catholic Faith.

Please correct me if you disagree.

Peace

Excellent!

 

[ralphinal]

Jimmy,
I was involved in a thread where I was attacked by one of those Catholic posters for disagreeing with them. The issue was not one of doctrine, and in fact, my position was ver batum that of the Church, but I had the nerve to defend a non-Catholic who spoke against them. This makes it look like the Catholic in the discussion was the mean, evil one.

 

[Contarini]

Hello Contarini,

Ok, here is an example…How about when one Catholic here, “jumps on” another Catholic here, who is involved in a theological debate with a non-Catholic. This happen all the time here, where some Catholics have a subjective belief that another Catholic isn’t being as “nice” as they would like them to be…

Are you implying that this type of thing never occurs here? Some Catholics here, for example, feel that it is more important to appear “nice” to non-Catholics then it is to support another Catholic who shares the same beliefs, because they disagree with that particular Catholic’s style or approach to defending their Catholic Faith.

Please correct me if you disagree.

I’m sorry, but you’ll have to give specifics. You may be too nice to do so, but without doing it your point is going to get nowhere. I have occasionally seen what you describe, yes. But I have far more often seen Catholics go on tirades against Protestants, and then react with shock and a sense of betrayal to their more sensible fellow-Catholics who tried to rein them in.

It has seemed to me on the whole that your posts were a bit shrill and over the top, and that you went way beyond just defending Catholicism and pointing out errors in Protestantism. You have started a number of threads that said things like “What is the real reason why you are not Catholic,” which is exactly the sort of thing I was describing above–an attack on personal motivations rather than simply on ideas.

However, precisely because I saw that tone in your posts, I have frankly been staying away from most of them, so I may be judging you hastily. Again, I would need to see examples of the posts you have in mind.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Personally, I may be too quick on hypocrite. I tend to use it in real life way too much.

Sin is easy. either it is or it is not.

Sinner, one who sins. Problem is I do not know the content of their heart.

heretic is somewhat problematic. To me, a heretic has to start from knowing the truth, then go against it. Otherwise, they are just wrong.

Exactly!

And sin is indeed far, far too easy. . . .

(Actually I’m not sure it’s always easy to tell if something is a sin, but it’s certainly legitimate and even necessary.)

Edwin

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy,
I was involved in a thread where I was attacked by one of those Catholic posters for disagreeing with them. The issue was not one of doctrine, and in fact, my position was ver batum that of the Church, but I had the nerve to defend a non-Catholic who spoke against them. This makes it look like the Catholic in the discussion was the mean, evil one.

Exactly, isn’t a Catholic who undermines another Catholic here, who is posting something that is true…undermining their own faith?

I have had other Catholics here go after me for something as simple as a thread title, where they would make a negative comment about me personally and then, not post a single word in defense of anything truthful on the thread.

Yet, threads titles like, “Was Mary Raped by God”, which I repeatedly complained about, get absolutely no response from these same people.

It appears to me that our Protestant friends here, might be more united than Catholics here and that concerns me.

I some cases, I feel that some here, think that it is more important to be “liked”, than it is to defend or explain their own faith.

Catholics have to know their own faith and be united, before attempting to prostelize others…if that is what they are attempting to do here…

Peace

 

[Catherine_M_L]

In order to discuss sins and sinners, we need to define a few things.

First of all, sin is an objective, not a subjective, thing. Serious sin is objectively grave matter. For example, stealing, sex outside of marriage, and abortion are three of the many objectively grave sins. Period. No debate necessary. (For anyone who is unclear about serious/grave/mortal sin, see 1 John 5:16-17). To identify a sin, even a grave one, is simply discerning right from wrong. We are supposed to do this. It is the entire purpose of Natural Law, the Ten Commandments, the Beatitudes, the division of the sheep from the goats, etc. Scripture clearly identifies gravely sins and instructs the Faithful to avoid them.

However, committing a mortal sin or declaring someone to be in a state of mortal sin requires surety that the person had 1) full knowledge and 2) consent when committing an objectively grave sin. Unless somebody admits this information to us, only God knows this. Sometimes we can’t even be sure about our own knowledge and consent (states of grace, or lack thereof). When in doubt, we all need to repent and “hit the box.”

We can and should identify sin, particularly serious sin, wherever we find it. Yet, only God can judge souls’ final destinies. We should never attempt to do that. It turns my stomach to hear, “Oh, he’s going to hell.” That is sad… and hopefully false. We each have until the final moment of our earthly demises to honestly repent. Nobody is beyond the mercy of God, unless they choose to be. Some people make that choice by ignoring their consciences and/or willingly failing to develop well-formed consciences in the first place (those in line with Church teaching).

There is so much here that only God knows, but we DO know sin when we see it, and objectively identifying it is good. Failing to call a sin a sin plays right into the devil’s hand.

However, we fail to love others and only love ourselves when we choose to commit the sin of negligence. When we know something is objectively wrong, we need to speak up in a charitable tone. There are very limited circumstances in which negligence of this may even be mortal (fraternal correction): newadvent.org/cathen/04394a.htm

To quote Fr. Corapi, “I love all of you, but I ain’t goin’ to hell for any of you.” He is the master of speaking the Truth in love, even when it is tough for people to hear. He says what needs to be said because he loves all people and wants them to come to know Christ and to live in the freedom of communion with him. He is a shining example of putting love of others before love of self.

In summary, we may certainly call a sin a sin. No question. However, only God can judge souls. We must discern based on God’s revelation, but only God judges.

Have a blessed weekend everyone.

 

[Cathdefender]

Exactly, isn’t a Catholic who undermines another Catholic here, who is posting something that is true…undermining their own faith?

I have had other Catholics here go after me for something as simple as a thread title, where they would make a negative comment about me personally and then, not post a single word in defense of anything truthful on the thread.

Yet, threads titles like, “Was Mary Raped by God”, which I repeatedly complained about, get absolutely no response from these same people.

It appears to me that our Protestant friends here, might be more united than Catholics here and that concerns me.

I some cases, I feel that some here, think that it is more important to be “liked”, than it is to defend or explain their own faith.

Catholics have to know their own faith and be united, before attempting to prostelize others…if that is what they are attempting to do here…

Peace

Jimmy, you are good, bro!

 

[Cathdefender]

Perhaps these Catholics really aren’t Catholics?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Are there people here at CAF, Catholics and non-Catholics that for the sake of ecumenicalism, are compromising their own faith?

At what point does compromise equal rejection of ones own faith?

Why do some here consider a vigorous defense of ones faith as being “uncharitable”, to a person of another faith?

i strong believe that we can debate each other with kindness even if others act unkind. this is our test. can we restrain the passion when things get heated?

i suggest when we get frustrated take a break before given an answer.

angry words only defeat the purpose of winning our enemies.

i have learned so much since being here. and also gave me more understand of what others believe.

prayer has taught me to be more patient with others who believe they have the truth. pride comes very easy. watch it.

since we know where the Truth is we should feel more secure and should come easy to us to be able to use kind words no matter how the other insist on error.

"Here someone may ask: since the canon of scriptures is complete, and is in itself adequate, why is there any need to join to its authority the understanding of the church? Because Holy Scripture, on account of its depth, is not accepted in a universal sense. The same statements are interpreted in one way by one person, in another sense by someone else, with the result that there seem to be as many opinions as there are people…Therefore, on account of the number and variety of errors, there is a need for someone to lay down a rule for the interpretation of the prophets and the apostles in such a way that it is directed by the rule of the catholic church."
(As quoted in Not By Scripture Alone, pg. 367)
Vincent of Lerins AD 434 -

 

[Swan]

Here’s my take on this issue:

We need to show respect for opinions different from our own. Showing respect does not in any way damage one’s own beliefs, it is in no way a compromise. It is simply the realization that we are not God, we don’t know what others have been through, we don’t know what God has in mind for them and we can’t know their heart, their relationship with God, or what path God might be following them along. To suggest that we do is in infer that we are in fact God instead of leaving the spirituality of the other folks in God’s hands, where it is anyway.

I say this as someone who has gone through a lot of personal pain and a lot of searching (search isn’t over, apparently). I am very sincere in my search for God and I resent being told that you (generally speaking, I’m not speaking to anyone in particular) has all the answers to make my life hunky dory. This is simply insulting. It makes my experiences, of which you know squat, sound completely meaningless, the contents of my heart, meaningless. No wonder people get mad.

Having said that, let me add that there are indeed people who are simply looking for a fight. They are not reasonable. I suggest stating your truth as simply as possible if you feel conpelled to respond and leaving it at that.

There is a reason that old adage says not to discuss religion - it is a very emotional topic. As someone said above, attacking someone else, being overly defensive, taking a disageement with the teachings you follow as a direct attack on you personally (or even on God) does more damage to what you profess than anything else you could do, IMO (save being a hypocrite - I really can’t stand hypocrites). Also, I try to keep in mind that we all have bad days, especially since I’ve had so many lately. I try, and sometimes fail, to give folks the benefit of the doubt. I really think that most people are just trying to live the best life they can. Jesus taught humility and the golden rule for a reason. Unfortunatly, the history of religous persecution (by all faiths) suggests that few understoond him (it is not okay to burn folks at the stake if they don’t agree with you).

Just my thoughts. Peace.

 

[AnthonyXM]

Well, try speaking to people who defame your bible, who curse Jesus and say he isn’t real, show me then your kindness. Very difficult.

Anyone who curses Jesus and says he isn’t real is full of sour beans - regardless of their denomination.

I may have to love them - as in diving into shark infested water to pull them out because they can’t swim - but I don’t have to LIKE them.

Can’t see what the problem is heeyar.
If you love Jesus, you’re welcome in my home, and anybody who insults you there can go hang somewhere else - real quick.

God bless you.

 

[Ed_Rand]

Catholics cannot put up such a united front because all questions regarding our faith have not been decisively settled. Catholics, and all others, should be encouraged to disagree when they feel it. Uniting simply for the sake of unity is a bad idea. this is not comprimise, it is strengthening. will can fill in the cracks of our faith through argument.