Are there Pharasees around today?

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inJESUS said:
oh i see…it seems we do differ on the purpose of Law. Since Jesus said Love God and love the other sums up the law, i though this was the same truth you hold. No i do not support gay marriage, but it does not mean that i marginalize gays or ask them not to mingle with me. Jesus was criticized for this, and when the actions oppose the law of love then you make the Law vain because you can’t love the One you don’t see if you can’t love the one you see.
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that’s absolutely right: we HATE sin but LOVE the sinner. We judge OBJECTIVE nature of acts, but not SUBJECTIVE motives. If a girl is promiscuous, she is objectively doing something wrong. But what are her motives? What’s really going on inside her SUBJECTIVELY? THAT we do NOT judge. She could be the victim of severe family abuse and so is looking to fill the painful void in the wrong places. Or, PERHAPS, as the Pharisee woudl just automatically assume, she is just a spoiled, selfish, superficial person that is looking for cheap thrills and is fully culpable for what she’s doing. But we cannot know for sure!

And so, a holy person would tell her (if the situation were appropriate), “Susan, what you are doing is not good for you. It is seriously wrong and you should realize how priceless you are in God’s eyse, and that the boys you run after do not really love you for who you truly are. You need to find love in the Lord and find a good man who will sacrifice for you and truly love you.”

But a pharisaical person would just blurt out, "You whore! If you died right now, you’d go to hell! "

That 's the difference between Catholic fraternal correction and ultra-fundamentalist judgementalism.
 
inJESUS said:
no Jesus is going to tell a Muslim like you that Muhammad was a false prophet 😉
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We are talking about your Jesus’ attitude towards a pharisee and not Muslims.

How about what he would say to many of his own followers who call him Lord, Lord and then even have done miracles and cast out devils in his name?
 
inJESUS said:
no Jesus is going to tell a Muslim like you that Muhammad was a false prophet 😉
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If Muhammad was a false prophet then are you saying that billions of Muslims will go to hell for believing in Prophet Mohamed who made these billions of Muslims of past, present and future that Prophet Jesus was a mightest messengers of God and was Messiah who performed miracles and heal sick with God’s permission and he (Prophet Mohamed) even honored highly mother of Prophet Jesus as choosen above all women of the world and restore her honor and save her from all kinds of allegations? because of this Prophet Mohamed, billions of Muslims believe this without any testimony from people like you.

BTW, there is a whole chapter in the Koran titled “Mary” and it would be interesting to know how many time name of Jesus is mentioned in the whole Koran and how many the name of Prophet Mohamed.

And you think you are in a position to WARN your own “holy father - the present Pope” when you are not even equal to his footnail.?
inJESUS said:
we must write to him that next time he must make sure his words cannot be twisted to convey a different meaning because there are millions of people who cannot read between the lines in order to understand what the Pope is talking about and there are millions of people who cannot help get beyong the superficial reading…We must warn him as well that if his speech is not well understood, nuns and priests will be killed and churches burnt down and Christiams persecuted everywhere , all this in the name of the religion of rationality and peace.
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You want to warn your Holy infallible Father???

When Holy Father gave/read his speech in an University in Germany, he had no idea what he is about to say/read out of his prepared speech??

Are you not undermining and underestimating the infallibility of your Holy Father? Are you more intelligent and more infallible than the present Holy Father Pope?

I don’t think you are even of his age. Do you how old he is now?

You must be as old as Holy Father’s grand son? Does Holy Father have his children and grand children? Ofcourse no.

But based on your “knowledge” of Catholicism as it is evident from some of posts, you are not even equal to foot-nail of your Holy Father who spent his whole busy life in “learning” and “preaching” the “love” of his God which eventually made him to say “beautiful” and “peaceful”/piecefull words in Germany’s University about Muslims/Islam that how much really he loves others especially Islam and Muslims and his such speech naturally energises the whole Islamic world and turned a great number of them voilent. This is the reaction of “love” message of Holy Father’s wisdom and his vast life-time experience of how to live with real “peace” with “thy neighbor–Muslims”.

Again, are you really in a position to warn your Holy Father when you doesn’t even seem to equal to his foot-nail?

Are you not voilating the rules of this Catholic forum by hoping to warn your Holy Father? Though you should be banned from this Catholic forum but I would still like to debate with you. But if I get banned then you can happily WARN your Holy Father but make sure he does harken to your WARNING b’cause you doesn’t even seem to equal to his foot-nail let alone in a position to WARN or even ADVICE him what he should do and what not.
 
Golden said:
We are talking about your Jesus’ attitude towards a pharisee and not Muslims.

How about what he would say to many of his own followers who call him Lord, Lord and then even have done miracles and cast out devils in his name?
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He will welcome them to His Kingdom 😉
 
Golden said:
If Muhammad was a false prophet then are you saying that billions of Muslims will go to hell for believing in Prophet Mohamed who made these billions of Muslims of past, present and future that Prophet Jesus was a mightest messengers of God and was Messiah who performed miracles and heal sick with God’s permission and he (Prophet Mohamed) even honored highly mother of Prophet Jesus as choosen above all women of the wolrd and restore her honor and save her from all kinds of allegations? because of this Prophet Mohamed, billions of Muslims believe this without any testimony from people like you.

And you think you are in a position to WARN your own “holy father - the present Pope” when you are not even equal to his footnail.?

You want to warn your Holy infallible Father???

When Holy Father gave/read his speech in an University in Germany, he had no idea what he is about to say/read out of his prepared speech??

Are you not undermining and underestimating the infallibility of your Holy Father? Are you more intelligent and more infallible than the present Holy Father Pope?

I don’t think you are even of his age. Do you how old he is now?

You must be as old as Holy Father’s grand son? Does Holy Father have his children and grand children? Ofcourse no.

But based on your “knowledge” of Catholicism as it is evident from some of posts, you are not even equal to foot-nail of your Holy Father who spent his whole busy life in “learning” and “preaching” the “love” of his God which eventually made him to say “beautiful” and “peaceful”/piecefull words in Germany’s University about Muslims/Islam that how much really he loves others especially Islam and Muslims and his such speech naturally energises the whole Islamic world and turned a great number of them voilent. This is the reaction of “love” message of Holy Father’s wisdom and his vast life-time experience of how to live with real “peace” with “thy neighbor–Muslims”.

Again, are you really in a position to warn your Holy Father when you doesn’t even seem to equal to his foot-nail?

Are you not voilating the rules of this Catholic forum by hoping to warn your Holy Father? Though you should be banned from this Catholic forum but I would still like to debate with you. But if I get banned then you can happily WARN your Holy Father but make sure he does harken to your WARNING b’cause you doesn’t even seem to equal to his foot-nail let alone in a position to WARN or even ADVICE him what he should do and what not.
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do not think that i will even think of reading your posts Freedom, Uni, Nathann, StAugustine, JMM159, Peace ecc cuz soon you will be banned 😉
 
inJESUS said:
do not this that i will even think of reading your posts Freedom, Uni, Nathann, StAugustine, JMM159, Peace ecc cuz soon you will be banned 😉
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You will ban me in the spirit of “Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you:”?

How and when you are going to apply the teachings of your own master?

AAh…but wait…you want to WARN your own HOLY FATHER when you are not even equal to his footnail. Very Catholic. I had heard that there are Catholics who are more Catholics than their Pope(s) but you are a very typical Catholic I even met who is willing to WARN his/her very Holy infallible Pope. Are your sure you are a Catholic?
 
inJESUS said:
do not think that i will even think of reading your posts…
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Why? Is it in the spirit of your Jesus who even listened what scribes and pharisees say and did not stop people nor his disciples to listen to these scribes and pharisees despite using very harsh words by labeling them as brood of vipors, snakes, blind guides…?

Are you more wiser and holier than your master?
 
inJESUS said:
oh i see…it seems we do differ on the purpose of Law. Since Jesus said Love God and love the other sums up the law, i though this was the same truth you hold. No i do not support gay marriage, but it does not mean that i marginalize gays or ask them not to mingle with me. Jesus was criticized for this, and when the actions oppose the law of love then you make the Law vain because you can’t love the One you don’t see if you can’t love the one you see.
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Loving God with all your heart, all your soul, all your might = prayer, Commandments, study. We express our love of God and our neighbor through the keeping of the mitzvot. My question about supporting gays was rhetorical. The point is that whenever there is a law, someone suffers. But that doesn’t mean the law is not just or needed. If the ultimate law is the law of love, then the prohibitions against homosexuality oppose such a law when the prevent two people who love each other from expressing their love to each other.
 
Valke2 said:
Loving God with all your heart, all your soul, all your might = prayer, Commandments, study. We express our love of God and our neighbor through the keeping of the mitzvot. My question about supporting gays was rhetorical. The point is that whenever there is a law, someone suffers. But that doesn’t mean the law is not just or needed. If the ultimate law is the law of love, then the prohibitions against homosexuality oppose such a law when the prevent two people who love each other from expressing their love to each other.
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i understand what you are saying Valke2 . It’s just that your interpretation of the Law is what Jesus rejected. You put Law first and then the other. Jesus said the Law is made for man and not man for the Law. You can observe the sabbath, but if the sabbath hinders you from helping someone, then you miss the meaning of the Law…and this applies to anything where the Law becomes a stumbling stone .It is the Spirit of the Law that Jesus focused on in all of his encounters with the Pharisee of his time who showed outward righteousness but inside they lacked the Spirit of God’s Law…
 
btw Valke2, you already said that you do not apply the Law in many circumstances.
 
inJESUS said:
i understand what you are saying Valke2 . It’s just that your interpretation of the Law is what Jesus rejected. You put Law first and then the other. Jesus said the Law is made for man and not man for the Law. You can observe the sabbath, but if the sabbath hinders you from helping someone, then you miss the meaning of the Law…and this applies to anything where the Law becomes a stumbling stone .It is the Spirit of the Law that Jesus focused on in all of his encounters with the Pharisee of his time who showed outward righteousness but inside they lacked the Spirit of God’s Law…
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That is how Jesus saw it, I would agree. Of course, I believe he was wrong. I do not believe Jews put the law first. That observation is so contrary to Judaism and as a concept is really alien to the Jewish way of thinking. From my perspecitive, to argue that Jews believed that Man was for the law, is something that an outsider looking at Judaism might say and, as I’ve posted, the examples of why jesus felt this way do not support that conclusion.

The body cannot survive without the spirit. And without the body the spirit is a transient thing, lacking substance. Spirit and law in Judaism are intertwined and cannot be seperated. They support each other. YOu could go throug all 613 commandments with me and I could make an arguement for how each one either supports moral and ethical behavior or, at the worst, is not contrary to proper moral and ethical behavior. As I’ve posted elsewhere, the biggest mistake I think people make about Judaism is believing it is a religion of deeds/law without faith. I think Jesus made the same mistake.
 
Having said all that, I’ll also say this. If a law clearly is contary to Jewish principles, morals and ethics, then it either needs to be interpeted in a way that resolves that conflict or it needs to be changed or abandoned. This is one of the guiding principles, I think, of Conservative Judaism. I’ll let an orthodox Jew give their own views on that topic.
 
Valke2 said:
Does that mean you support gay marriage? Since the prohibition causes suffering for some? All law causes “suffering.” And I don’t know if Love is the highest moral law. That sounds like a lot of fluff. Because withoutl laws, people do the right thing when it is convenient. One of the main purposes of halacha is to ensure that we do what is right even when we don’t feel like it.
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Amen. Law, derived from particular cases, and worked from the bottom up, is little more than the codification of mob rule. The Mosaic Law derives principally from the Author of the Universe.

Even though we have tables of stone delivered from on high, the content of that law resides (th Book of Sirach and Paul both tell us) in the creation itself. The Rule of creation is expressed in the Mosaic Law, with Revelation – the Law of Love – giving it life, because God IS Love.

Rightly understood, there is NO conflict between the rule of Law and the rule of Love.

Let’s give the Pharisees a little credit. They held Judaism together when Israel was scattered during the exile and created a form of Judaism that could survive without the Temple and the key place it held in the heart of Judaism. Without the Pharisees, who stubbornly and heroically refused to assimilate with their pagan conquerers, Judaism would have remained strictly tied to the Temple. We Christians would not have our Messiah, because the nobody would have been able to imagine a Messiah who did not restore the Temple. As it was, most were unable to make that jump.

Don’t forget that Nicodemus , Lazarus, and likely also Joseph of Arimathea were Pharisees – not to mention Paul. Jesus himself has more in common with the Pharisees than with the other Jewish parties of first-century Palestine. I think that’s why he and they were so often at odds. Jesus knew that they stood for the Law as liberation from slavery. But in their zeal for keeping their sacred treasure incorrupt, they often focused so narrowly that the heart of the Law was obscured. Remember that “seventh” and true Pharisee in post #56? – the one who is a Pharisee out of fear and love of God?
 
Valke2 said:
That is how Jesus saw it, I would agree. Of course, I believe he was wrong. I do not believe Jews put the law first. That observation is so contrary to Judaism and as a concept is really alien to the Jewish way of thinking. From my perspecitive, to argue that Jews believed that Man was for the law, is something that an outsider looking at Judaism might say and, as I’ve posted, the examples of why jesus felt this way do not support that conclusion.

The body cannot survive without the spirit. And without the body the spirit is a transient thing, lacking substance. Spirit and law in Judaism are intertwined and cannot be seperated. They support each other. YOu could go throug all 613 commandments with me and I could make an arguement for how each one either supports moral and ethical behavior or, at the worst, is not contrary to proper moral and ethical behavior. As I’ve posted elsewhere, the biggest mistake I think people make about Judaism is believing it is a religion of deeds/law without faith. I think Jesus made the same mistake.
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i got a different impression because you said earlier :

We express our love of God and our neighbor through the keeping of the mitzvot.

From the 613 commandmants, how many do you still observe?
 
inJESUS said:
i got a different impression because you said earlier :

We express our love of God and our neighbor through the keeping of the mitzvot.

From the 613 commandmants, how many do you still observe?
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Outside of Israel, there are 77 positive and 194 negative mitzvot that are still observed (or should be observed) today. In addition to these we have what is known as “gezeirah” – laws we follow to prevent us from accidently violating a mitzvah. For example, it is prohibited to spend money on Shabbat for something that could be used for work. So the Rabbis have prohibited the carrying of money on shabbat, so that we won’t accidently spend it.
 
Additionally, there is Halahca that is not based on Torah commandments (such as lighting sabbath candles, reading the book of Esther on Purim…)

Then there is Minhag. Tradition. Many things we do are not technicallyh laws but Minhag. But many Minhag has what amounts to the same force and effect as law/halacha.

So, while I disagree that the Phraisess were hard hearted, I agree that, if you wanted to take a religion to the masses, Judaism would probably not be your best choice. It is a difficult religion in many ways to follow, it requires a lot from its followers, including being educated/studying its texts…
 
The Sadduccees rejected the resurrection of the dead. That is why they were so sad you see 😉 .
 
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