Are those who do not receive Jesus in Holy Eucharist really Christians? Is it insanity for them to continue claiming to be Christians?

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I have been on topic since the original post assumes that Jesus was being completely literal in John 6. If He was not, then there is no case for the necessity of the Eucharist in determining if one is a Christian. Note the original poster is Orthodox so she wasn’t raising being a Christian without being Catholic.
The statement was if one does not receive the Eucharist (such as from Orthodox or Catholic) then one is not a Christian. A Christian “believes” in Christ and the teachings of Christ. Different religions obviously have different interpretations of the bible. What does that have to do with their being a Christian? I didn’t know this was another thread to argue over the differences on belief in presence vs, symbolism in the Eucharist. You obviously have chosen to make it such.
 
StMarina,

Are you a Catholic? Your statement regarding who is/isn’t a Christian is not in line with Catholic teaching.

You are aware, are you not, that the Catholic Church teaches every baptized person is a Christian?

Certainly, Catholics and Orthodox complete the Sacraments of Initiation through Eucharist and Confirmation and the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth.

However, the Sacrament necessary to incorporate us into the Body of Christ is Baptism. All those who are baptized are rightly called Christians.
I am Orthodox. Christian initiation since the beginning of the Church has always been by way of the 3 Mysteries/Sacraments: Baptism, Chrismation and Holy Eucharist. Holy Eucharist and Confession and Holy Unction are given repeatedly through out a Christians life: Confession and Holy Eucharist often, daily or weekly or monthly whatever the Christian’s Spiritual Father/Mother has determined is in the best spiritual interest of that particular individual and Holy Unction is given at least once a year. Holy Matrimony and Holy Orders are given only to those who are called to either or both.

I do know that Catholics have changed it a bit for various historical reasons: In the Catholic Church someone is only given the 3 Initiation Sacraments together if he or she is Eastern Orthodox or an Adult convert into the Roman Rite. I also know that Confession is given very infrequently - in most cases Catholics will only go once a year and that a few Catholics, even those who don’t live near a Monastery receive Holy Eucharist on a daily basis. Holy Unction is normally only given to a Catholic on their death bed. Those who are called to marriage are forbidden Holy Orders unless they are of the Eastern Catholics in another country - like Canada or on rare occasion they were a priest prior to their becoming a Roman Catholic (although they are forbidden from practicing their marriage).

The point I’m getting at in the post is that many people claim to be Christian who are just Baptized and that is it…they have never received the other 2 required Mysteries which causes one to become a Christian: Chrismation and Holy Eucharist. According to the Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition - shared by both Historically proven Christian Churches all 3 are required.
 
StMarina,

Are you a Catholic? Your statement regarding who is/isn’t a Christian is not in line with Catholic teaching.

You are aware, are you not, that the Catholic Church teaches every baptized person is a Christian?

Certainly, Catholics and Orthodox complete the Sacraments of Initiation through Eucharist and Confirmation and the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth.

However, the Sacrament necessary to incorporate us into the Body of Christ is Baptism. All those who are baptized are rightly called Christians.
1ke,

I have never seen any post by StMarina in which she was less than honest about her faith, or in which she claimed to be Roman Catholic.

P.S.
I am Orthodox.
Like that. 🙂
 
Jesus commanded us to “Eat My Flesh and Drink My Blood” multiple times in John 6 after one of the miracles He did multiplying the Loaves and Fishes to show us that it is by a miracle that He gives us is Body & Blood. Towards the end of the chapter many of Jesus’ own disciples (not the 12) left Him on this one issue.

So can anyone truly be a Christian who does not partake in Holy Eucharist - the reception of His True Body and True Blood?

Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholic Christians begin receiving Holy Eucharist as infants immediately after Baptism and Chrismation during the Rite which includes the reception of all 3 Mysteries/Sacraments at once. It has always been, since the beginning of Christianity, those 3 Mysteries which is the initiation in to the Christian Family, the Christian Church.

I know that lots of people consider themselves Christian, but that doesn’t make them a Christian. I could consider myself a princess, act like I would think a princess should act, dress as a princess should dress, etc., but my thinking and believing I was a princess would certainly not make me a princess.

In fact if I went around claiming to be a princess I would be insane…so similarly isn’t it insanity for someone to consider themselves a Christian when they have not actually “married the prince” when they have never actually been initiated into the Christian Faith by way of Holy Baptism, Chrismation and receiving Holy Eucharist?

There are only two Churches which have valid Eucharist and Mysteries/Sacraments…the same two Churches which maintain an unbroken Apostolic Succession Line back to Jesus’ 12 Apostles. Those Churches are know today as the: Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

Pick one! Become one! And see what it is really like to actually be a Christian!

God Bless everyone! Let’s be sure to respect everyone’s opinions even if we should disagree with one another. God loves us all and we are to love each other.
Each week we recieve the Eucharist at our Lutheran church. Jesus in John 6 says this is my body and this is my blood we beleive that Jesus is indeed present in the Bread and wine. Regardless of what Catholics say Our eucharist is valid. ALl the Priest and apologist can say what ever they want you can never change my mind. Bring it on I can handle it When you attack me your being judgemental and just how christian is that?
 
So are you supposing that one can be rightfully called a Christian and yet not receive salvation? Interesting, I don’t think I’ve heard that stance before…
Jesus said that those who are not baptized will not be saved, but didn’t say that all those who were baptized would be saved. Even St. Paul said he was fearful of losing his salvation.

Just because we choose to run the race of salvation doesn’t mean we will choose to finish the race - we may get a twisted angle and chose to throw in the towel at some point.

We begin running once we have received Holy Baptism, Chrismation and Holy Eucharist - it’s our starting line. Our “water” along the marathon Holy Eucharist. If we get off the racing path, Confession takes us back. Holy Matrimony provides us a partner in our race. Those who have Holy Orders are the one who are our coaches, they guide and encourage us to make it to the finish line…the end of our lives.

Chose to run! Get Baptized, receive Chrismation and Holy Eucharist! Choose to be a Christian!
 
Well, I was not so much referring to your position (though I certainly take issue with it) as that of Gamera (I don’t believe its the position o the Catholic Church in general, but if someone would like to clarify that’d be great). It seems rather disingenuous to apply the label “Christian” to a very large group of people who you believe will not be saved.
 
Each week we recieve the Eucharist at our Lutheran church. Jesus in John 6 says this is my body and this is my blood we beleive that Jesus is indeed present in the Bread and wine. Regardless of what Catholics say Our eucharist is valid. ALl the Priest and apologist can say what ever they want you can never change my mind. Bring it on I can handle it When you attack me your being judgemental and just how christian is that?
I know you and some Lutherans want to claim your Communion to be Holy Eucharist…you may even use the same terminology; however, the Lutheran Church was not founded by an Apostle.

The Lutheran Church was founded by a fallen away Catholic Monk named Martin Luther *1500 years after *the Apostles died.

Without valid Holy Orders, there is no way to have a valid Eucharist.
 
I am Orthodox. Christian initiation since the beginning of the Church has always been by way of the 3 Mysteries/Sacraments: Baptism, Chrismation and Holy Eucharist. Holy Eucharist and Confession and Holy Unction are given repeatedly through out a Christians life: Confession and Holy Eucharist often, daily or weekly or monthly whatever the Christian’s Spiritual Father/Mother has determined is in the best spiritual interest of that particular individual and Holy Unction is given at least once a year. Holy Matrimony and Holy Orders are given only to those who are called to either or both.

I do know that Catholics have changed it a bit for various historical reasons: In the Catholic Church someone is only given the 3 Initiation Sacraments together if he or she is **Eastern Rite Catholic ** (by accident I type Eastern Orthodox above - unable to edit it) or an Adult convert into the Roman Rite. I also know that Confession is given very infrequently - in most cases Catholics will only go once a year and that a few Catholics, even those who don’t live near a Monastery receive Holy Eucharist on a daily basis. Holy Unction is normally only given to a Catholic on their death bed. Those who are called to marriage are forbidden Holy Orders unless they are of the Eastern Catholics in another country - like Canada or on rare occasion they were a priest prior to their becoming a Roman Catholic (although they are forbidden from practicing their marriage).

The point I’m getting at in the post is that many people claim to be Christian who are just Baptized and that is it…they have never received the other 2 required Mysteries which causes one to become a Christian: Chrismation and Holy Eucharist. According to the Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition - shared by both Historically proven Christian Churches all 3 are required.
 
So are you supposing that one can be rightfully called a Christian and yet not receive salvation? Interesting, I don’t think I’ve heard that stance before…
Sure. If I commit a mortal sin, I lose the state of grace, but I’m still a Christian. I don’t need to get baptized again – in fact, I cannot be baptized again, precisely because it’s an indelible seal.
 
Sure. If I commit a mortal sin, I lose the state of grace, but I’m still a Christian. I don’t need to get baptized again – in fact, I cannot be baptized again, precisely because it’s an indelible seal.
…but you would apply the label to someone who was continually out of a state of grace? That definition of a Christian seems fairly pointless, as it has little to do with being a follower of Christ. It also doesn’t match up with my understanding of what is stated in the CCC and Vatican II documents.
 
Well, I was not so much referring to your position (though I certainly take issue with it) as that of Gamera (I don’t believe its the position o the Catholic Church in general, but if someone would like to clarify that’d be great). It seems rather disingenuous to apply the label “Christian” to a very large group of people who you believe will not be saved.
To Catholics, the word “Christian” means any validly baptized person. Such a person may not be a practicing Christian, or a very good Christian … in fact he may be apostate, heretic, or atheist — but if he ever received a valid baptism he is irreversibly a Christian. That doesn’t mean he cannot lose the state of grace. He can. But he remains a Christian because his baptism never can be “un-done.”
 
The statement was if one does not receive the Eucharist (such as from Orthodox or Catholic) then one is not a Christian. A Christian “believes” in Christ and the teachings of Christ. Different religions obviously have different interpretations of the bible. What does that have to do with their being a Christian? I didn’t know this was another thread to argue over the differences on belief in presence vs, symbolism in the Eucharist. You obviously have chosen to make it such.
I think I’m a princess! I believe I am a princess! - nope it didn’t work. Still not a princess.

Just like becoming anything: a teacher, a pilot, a mother, etc. you have to do something: go to college and get your teaching credentials, go to flight school and get enough air time to qualify for a pilot’s license, get married and have a child - just like that, to become a Christian you need to do something: be baptized, be chrismated and receive Holy Eucharist - once you are a Christian it is expected that you will believe in Christ, follow His Commandments and continue receiving the Mysteries of the Church. Until you actually become a Christian - you are simply desiring to be a Christian or wrongly thinking/believing you are what you have not yet become.
 
Well, I was not so much referring to your position (though I certainly take issue with it) as that of Gamera (I don’t believe its the position o the Catholic Church in general, but if someone would like to clarify that’d be great). It seems rather disingenuous to apply the label “Christian” to a very large group of people who you believe will not be saved.
For what it’s worth:

Far deeper objections may be felt-and have been expressed- against my use of the word Christian to mean one who accepts the common doctrines of Christianity. People ask: “Who are you, to lay down who is, and who is not a Christian?” or “May not many a man who cannot believe these doctrines be far more truly a Christian, far closer to the spirit of Christ, than some who do?” Now this objection is in one sense very right, very charitable, very spiritual, very sensitive. It has every amiable quality except that of being useful. We simply cannot, without disaster, use language as these objectors want us to use it. I will try to make this clear by the history of another, and very much less important, word.

The word gentleman originally meant something recognisable; one who had a coat of arms and some landed property. When you called someone “a gentleman” you were not paying him a compliment, but merely stating a fact. If you said he was not “a gentleman” you were not insulting him, but giving information. There was no contradiction in saying that John was a liar and a gentleman; any more than there now is in saying that James is a fool and an M.A. But then there came people who said-so rightly, charitably, spiritually, sensitively, so anything but usefully-“Ah, but surely the important thing about a gentleman is not the coat of arms and the land, but the behaviour? Surely he is the true gentleman who behaves as a gentleman should? Surely in that sense Edward is far more truly a gentleman than John?”

They meant well. To be honourable and courteous and brave is of course a far better thing than to have a coat of arms. But it is not the same thing. Worse still, it is not a thing everyone will agree about. To call a man “a gentleman” in this new, refined sense, becomes, in fact, not a way of giving information about him, but a way of praising him: to deny that he is “a gentleman” becomes simply a way of insulting him. When a word ceases to be a term of description and becomes merely a term of praise, it no longer tells you facts about the object: it only tells you about the speaker’s attitude to that object. (A “nice” meal only means a meal the speaker likes.)

A gentleman, once it has been spiritualised and refined out of its old coarse, objective sense, means hardly more than a man whom the speaker likes. As a result, gentleman is now a useless word. We had lots of terms of approval already, so it was not needed for that use; on the other hand if anyone (say, in a historical work) wants to use it in its old sense, he cannot do so without explanations. It has been spoiled for that purpose.

Now if once we allow people to start spiritualising and refining, or as they might say “deepening,” the sense of the word Christian, it too will speedily become a useless word. In the first place, Christians themselves will never be able to apply it to anyone. It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men’s hearts. We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge.

It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense. And obviously a word which we can never apply is not going to be a very useful word. As for the unbelievers, they will no doubt cheerfully use the word in the refined sense. It will become in their mouths simply a term of praise. In calling anyone a Christian they will mean that they think him a good man. But that way of using the word will be no enrichment of the language, for we already have the word good. Meanwhile, the word Christian will have been spoiled for any really useful purpose it might have served.

We must therefore stick to the original, obvious meaning. The name Christians was first given at Antioch (Acts xi. 26) to “the disciples,” to those who accepted the teaching of the apostles. There is no question of its being restricted to those who profited by that teaching as much as they should have. There is no question of its being extended to those who in some refined, spiritual, inward fashion were “far closer to the spirit of Christ” than the less satisfactory of the disciples. The point is not a theological, or moral one. It is only a question of using words so that we can all understand what is being said. When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian.
  • C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
 
LOL, well as a Friend, at least I know where I stand with those of you who require baptism with water. 🙂 I’m content to simply be a “Friend”…but I will call myself a Christian as well…it’s not any church or organization that defines who I am, it is the One who has spoken to my condition and brought me out of my darkness into His Light…I may not be a “christian” by your definition…but I am enough of one by mine.🙂
 
…but you would apply the label to someone who was continually out of a state of grace? That definition of a Christian seems fairly pointless, as it has little to do with being a follower of Christ. It also doesn’t match up with my understanding of what is stated in the CCC and Vatican II documents.
I wouldn’t call an apostate a practicing Christian. That’s different. But yes, every validly baptized person is a Christian according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

“All who have been justified by faith in baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians …” CCC 818.

“Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church but in body not in heart.” CCC 837.
 
I wouldn’t call an apostate a practicing Christian. That’s different. But yes, every validly baptized person is a Christian according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

“All who have been justified by faith in baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians …” CCC 818.

“Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church but in body not in heart.” CCC 837.
I find it rather interesting that no one thought to bring up this point in the “Do Catholics consider Protestants to be Christian?” thread. The question, “Do you believe based on my profession of faith that I am condemned to hell?” certainly seems extremely relevant to any discussion of ecumenism.
 
LOL, well as a Friend, at least I know where I stand with those of you who require baptism with water. 🙂 I’m content to simply be a “Friend”…but I will call myself a Christian as well…it’s not any church or organization that defines who I am, it is the One who has spoken to my condition and brought me out of my darkness into His Light…I may not be a “christian” by your definition…but I am enough of one by mine.🙂
Yeah, sorry, nothing personal. I’m just explaining what the Catholic Church teaches. I’m not anti-Friend, I hope it didn’t seem that way.
 
Catholics and their magisterium are unbelievably inconsistent in this:John 6:53

So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.If one does not eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus, he has no life in him.

Catholics should get coherent in their doctrines, and quit the seeker-friendly shell game by proclaiming the convictions of their teaching of the eucharist—no eat flesh, no have life, no have kingdom, going to hell. 🤷
.
🤷
 
For what it’s worth:

Far deeper objections may be felt-and have been expressed- against my use of the word Christian to mean one who accepts the common doctrines of Christianity. People ask: “Who are you, to lay down who is, and who is not a Christian?” or “May not many a man who cannot believe these doctrines be far more truly a Christian, far closer to the spirit of Christ, than some who do?” Now this objection is in one sense very right, very charitable, very spiritual, very sensitive. It has every amiable quality except that of being useful. We simply cannot, without disaster, use language as these objectors want us to use it. I will try to make this clear by the history of another, and very much less important, word.

The word gentleman originally meant something recognisable; one who had a coat of arms and some landed property. When you called someone “a gentleman” you were not paying him a compliment, but merely stating a fact. If you said he was not “a gentleman” you were not insulting him, but giving information. There was no contradiction in saying that John was a liar and a gentleman; any more than there now is in saying that James is a fool and an M.A. But then there came people who said-so rightly, charitably, spiritually, sensitively, so anything but usefully-“Ah, but surely the important thing about a gentleman is not the coat of arms and the land, but the behaviour? Surely he is the true gentleman who behaves as a gentleman should? Surely in that sense Edward is far more truly a gentleman than John?”

They meant well. To be honourable and courteous and brave is of course a far better thing than to have a coat of arms. But it is not the same thing. Worse still, it is not a thing everyone will agree about. To call a man “a gentleman” in this new, refined sense, becomes, in fact, not a way of giving information about him, but a way of praising him: to deny that he is “a gentleman” becomes simply a way of insulting him. When a word ceases to be a term of description and becomes merely a term of praise, it no longer tells you facts about the object: it only tells you about the speaker’s attitude to that object. (A “nice” meal only means a meal the speaker likes.)

A gentleman, once it has been spiritualised and refined out of its old coarse, objective sense, means hardly more than a man whom the speaker likes. As a result, gentleman is now a useless word. We had lots of terms of approval already, so it was not needed for that use; on the other hand if anyone (say, in a historical work) wants to use it in its old sense, he cannot do so without explanations. It has been spoiled for that purpose.

Now if once we allow people to start spiritualising and refining, or as they might say “deepening,” the sense of the word Christian, it too will speedily become a useless word. In the first place, Christians themselves will never be able to apply it to anyone. It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men’s hearts. We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge.

It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that any man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense. And obviously a word which we can never apply is not going to be a very useful word. As for the unbelievers, they will no doubt cheerfully use the word in the refined sense. It will become in their mouths simply a term of praise. In calling anyone a Christian they will mean that they think him a good man. But that way of using the word will be no enrichment of the language, for we already have the word good. Meanwhile, the word Christian will have been spoiled for any really useful purpose it might have served.

We must therefore stick to the original, obvious meaning. The name Christians was first given at Antioch (Acts xi. 26) to “the disciples,” to those who accepted the teaching of the apostles. There is no question of its being restricted to those who profited by that teaching as much as they should have. There is no question of its being extended to those who in some refined, spiritual, inward fashion were “far closer to the spirit of Christ” than the less satisfactory of the disciples. The point is not a theological, or moral one. It is only a question of using words so that we can all understand what is being said. When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian.
  • C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
Note that C.S. Lewis is speaking with regard to a qualitative definition of the word Christian, and discarding such a notion as practically useless because we cannot see into the hearts of man. However, what we are talking about here is not a qualitative criteria at all, but a very well defined one: whether or not someone has received the Eucharist as approved by the Orthodox/Catholic church, and whether they have been confirmed/chrimated by these churches. Those do not require qualitative judgments about the state of a man’s heart, but are quite well-defined concrete events…so Lewis’ point doesn’t apply here.
 
I know you and some Lutherans want to claim your Communion to be Holy Eucharist…you may even use the same terminology; however, the Lutheran Church was not founded by an Apostle.

The Lutheran Church was founded by a fallen away Catholic Monk named Martin Luther *1500 years after *the Apostles died.

Without valid Holy Orders, there is no way to have a valid Eucharist.
In John 6 there is no mention of Who has " Holy orders." Jesus Said this is my body and this is my Blood. Those who partake in it have eternal Life
 
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