Are those who do not receive Jesus in Holy Eucharist really Christians? Is it insanity for them to continue claiming to be Christians?

[Calliope]

My, my…such bitterness. How would you describe yourself?.. you come on here and ridicule our faith, painting us all with the same brush, when you must have just read a couple of previous threads arguing against the OP’s opinion that non-Catholics are non-Christian.

As far as the parts of your post I have bolded…you obviously know nothing of the history, teachings, or tradition of the Catholic church which explains the uninformed way you mention these things, mostly glaringly, the statement that we think “these things” will save us. Christ will save us.

There are insincere people in all religions. That is not the fault of religion.

Yes, I do feel bitter. I would describe myself as someone who is tired of what passes today as “Christianity” that has nothing to do with Christ and everything to do with people wanting to feel good about themselves. We should all be ashamed of ourselves, making a mockery of Christ’s life and message.

I AM Catholic! I was not dissing Catholics specifically, just pointing out that we are no different in this regard than any other form of “Christian”. We talk about how much we know and how old our tradition is, but keep on acting the way we like rather than how Christ showed us to.

And from the way many of us speak, we certainly do make it sound as if we think all things Catholic will save us, or at least put us in “first class”.

I think people are more than insincere, I think we are willfully ignorant.

We believe what we want to be true, rather than what Christ said was true.

 

[Peter_J]

And from the way many of us speak, we certainly do make it sound as if we think all things Catholic will save us, or at least put us in “first class”.

I kind of know what you mean.

I’m reminded of this post from the thread Protestants: Could you please do us all a favor??:

I guess part of my opinion is that most Catholics that I know, don’t know or follow RCC teachings. Even here a lot of Catholics don’t know what the RCC teaches. I do know quite a lot and way more than most Catholics I associate with.

Well, maybe you do but guess what? They’re still Catholic and your not, at least they’re trying. You have to see the Catholic Church beyond those that do not live their faith as they should. At least as you think they should. Only God knows the heart and mind of each of us. If your interested, then learn for yourself and live it for yourself and pray for all. Come on in, the waters fine.

“They’re still Catholic and your not”

I think I’ll hear those words in my mind for the rest of my life.

 

[ralphinal]

Catholics and their magisterium are unbelievably inconsistent in this:John 6:53

So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.If one does not eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus, he has no life in him.

Catholics should get coherent in their doctrines, and quit the seeker-friendly shell game by proclaiming the convictions of their teaching of the eucharist—no eat flesh, no have life, no have kingdom, going to hell.

Brace yourself, I am about to talk Scripture to explain it.

Anyway, Jesus said that to have eternal life, you must be born again of water and the Spirit. We have always understood that to mean Baptism as well as daily conversion to Christ from sin.

The John 6 passage talks about having life WITHIN you. In other words, partaking of Heaven while on earth. Jesus does not say that you must eat his flesh to have eternal life (Baptism is required for that) but he says that if you do not, you will not have the Life within you while on earth.

Does that make sense?

 

[blossom02]

I was thinking about this very issue while I was at work today, how Christianity must be the easiest club to join, all you have to do is say you are Christian, and everyone is supposed to be impressed.

But Jesus was pretty clear about what it took to follow him, and it was way more than lip service.

Even Catholics, going on about how they have the real presence and the real sacraments and the fullness of grace, most of them, you couldn’t tell that they have any of that stuff based on how they live and act.

It all seems pretty pathetic, say the right words, brag that you belong to the right church, but so very few actually seem to care a lick about LIVING as Jesus instructed, they want all those other things to save them, the prayers, the church they belong to, the fact that they keep saying repeatedly they are Christian, while using every loophole they can find to act like they are anything but a follower of Christ.

If people believed what they say they do, their lives would show it. If they can’t fool one another here on earth, I’m sure they are not fooling God or Christ either.

Christ said he is the way, follow him, if you love him keep his word.

He didn’t promise any loopholes for all the various practices that have since been cooked up in his name.

I don’t care how many novenas a person does or how many first Saturdays they can brag about, if they don’t live their faith day to day, if they don’t BE Christ to the people around them, they are kidding themselves.

If people really believed Christ is the way, they’d live it. They keep hoping someone will come up with an easier alternative way, a way that doesn’t involve them sacrificing pride, comfort, or bragging rights.

Calliope

Don’t you think that most of the people doing these things are trying even though they may fail.

 

[sandusky]

Brace yourself, I am about to talk Scripture to explain it.

Anyway, Jesus said that to have eternal life, you must be born again of water and the Spirit. We have always understood that to mean Baptism as well as daily conversion to Christ from sin.

The John 6 passage talks about having life WITHIN you. In other words, partaking of Heaven while on earth. Jesus does not say that you must eat his flesh to have eternal life (Baptism is required for that) but he says that if you do not, you will not have the Life within you while on earth.

Does that make sense?

No (cf 6:68).

 

[Peter_J]

No.

Oh what terrible times we live in, when passing ruffians can say “Ne” to old women.

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

Oh what terrible times we live in, when passing strangers can say “Ne” to old women.

"Listen – strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Well you can’t expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!

I mean, if I went around sayin’ I was an empereror just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they’d put me away!"

 

[ralphinal]

No (cf 6:68).

What are you Catholic? You just say no?

Should we make a bridge out of you?

 

[Calliope]

Don’t you think that most of the people doing these things are trying even though they may fail.

No, honestly, I think most people are trying really hard to fool themselves into thinking that somehow THEIR way will work, that Christ didn’t mean what he said, that God will see how different their situation is and “understand”. I think most people are trying to fool themselves and find a loophole and follow a path that humans have labeled as Christian, rather than really take Christ’s teachings to heart and live them.

I’ve been hearing it my entire life, ‘my church teaches’, not “Christ teaches”, ‘my church says’, not "Christ says’.

People look to each other for answers, because they don’t like the one’s that Christ provided.

 

[1ke]

1ke,

I have never seen any post by StMarina in which she was less than honest about her faith, or in which she claimed to be Roman Catholic.

I had never seen a post by St. Martina at all.

That’s why I asked.

I guess I could have looked at the profile, but I didn’t think of it at the time.

 

[benedictus2]

Brace yourself, I am about to talk Scripture to explain it.

Anyway, Jesus said that to have eternal life, you must be born again of water and the Spirit. We have always understood that to mean Baptism as well as daily conversion to Christ from sin.

The John 6 passage talks about having life WITHIN you. In other words, partaking of Heaven while on earth. Jesus does not say that you must eat his flesh to have eternal life (Baptism is required for that) but he says that if you do not, you will not have the Life within you while on earth.

Does that make sense?

:clapping:

 

[reteeks21]

"Listen – strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Well you can’t expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!

I mean, if I went around sayin’ I was an empereror just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they’d put me away!"

Is this old woman made out of wood? Does she weigh as much as a duck?

 

[1ke]

I am Orthodox. Christian initiation since the beginning of the Church has always been by way of the 3 Mysteries/Sacraments: Baptism, Chrismation and Holy Eucharist.

Well, we will agree to disagree on the point at which one becomes a Christian. We do not disagree that there are three Sacraments that *complete *initiation: Baptism, Chrismation/Confirmation, and Eucharist.

I also know that Confession is given very infrequently - in most cases Catholics will only go once a year

This is not accurate. Confession is “given” quite frequently-- every week in fact. Whether or not a Catholic chooses to avail him/herself of it is another thing. But, it is available at any time. Frequent reception of the Sacrament of Reconciliation is encourage. It is certainly required for anyone in a state of mortal sin.

and that a few Catholics, even those who don’t live near a Monastery receive Holy Eucharist on a daily basis.

I’m not sure what you meant here.

Holy Unction is normally only given to a Catholic on their death bed.

This is not true. Any Catholic who is ill can receive the Anointing of the Sick, not just those who are dieing.

Those who are called to marriage are forbidden Holy Orders unless they are of the Eastern Catholics in another country - like Canada

This is accurate.

or on rare occasion they were a priest prior to their becoming a Roman Catholic (although they are forbidden from practicing their marriage).

I’m not sure what you mean by “forbidden from practicing their marriage.” There is no such restriction on an Eastern Rite Catholic priest or those married men admitted to the priesthood through the Pastoral Provision (Episcopal priests who convert).

The point I’m getting at in the post is that many people claim to be Christian who are just Baptized and that is it…they have never received the other 2 required Mysteries which causes one to become a Christian: Chrismation and Holy Eucharist. According to the Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition - shared by both Historically proven Christian Churches all 3 are required.

Baptism incorporates us into the Body of Christ. But, again, we disagree on this.

 

[rbarcia]

**
John 10
7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me[a] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
**

Is there a physical door somewhere with the Real presence of Jesus?

**
John 15
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
**

Is there a real vine, somewhere with the Real presence of Jesus?

**
Hebrews 9
22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
**

Cat of RC church says Jesus offered himself first in the last supper before the cross. In an unbloody matter? How is it the same if one is bloody and the other is not.
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: “The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different.” “And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory.”
No daily sacrifice needed. Jesus died once for all time. No repeated daily sacrifice needed. This is straight forward language.

**
Hebrews 10

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[c] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
**

 

[benedictus2]

I do obey him…just not to your standards. I have been baptized with the True Baptism which incorporates me into His Body…by the Holy Spirit…I commune with Him daily and in Meeting as two or three of us BELIEVE His words …“I am there in their midst”

I will follow the counsel He gives…He is the True Light which enlightens every man. If there is a judgement to stand before, it is I, not anyone else, that will stand before Him in judgement…I can live or die with that…“I am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.” I know Whom it is I believe…I will trust in that.

I am not quite sure which part of the NT this is in but Christ said if you love me keep my commandments. Of all His commandments He was very clear about the the eating and drinking of his body and blood. He actually said it and re-said it: versers 32-66 infact. He’s really trying to hammer a point here. So StMarina was not talking abut her standards but Christ’s.

If there is someone you should take issue with it’s Christ. Ask him “why in the world did you have to say that?”

If you can’t believe it, you can’t believe it. End of the story.
But neither did those who left him because they found this teachingt too hard to stomach . So he was left with his apostles and Peter saying “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life”.

 

[benedictus2]

I do obey him…just not to your standards. I have been baptized with the True Baptism which incorporates me into His Body…by the Holy Spirit…I commune with Him daily and in Meeting as two or three of us BELIEVE His words …“I am there in their midst”

I will follow the counsel He gives…He is the True Light which enlightens every man. If there is a judgement to stand before, it is I, not anyone else, that will stand before Him in judgement…I can live or die with that…“I am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.” I know Whom it is I believe…I will trust in that.

Oh and for the record, I think you are a Christian. Just selective in your reading of the Bible. I think it’s a doctine called “Some parts of the Bible Alone”.

 

[benedictus2]

Yes, I do feel bitter. I would describe myself as someone who is tired of what passes today as “Christianity” that has nothing to do with Christ and everything to do with people wanting to feel good about themselves. We should all be ashamed of ourselves, making a mockery of Christ’s life and message.

I AM Catholic! I was not dissing Catholics specifically, just pointing out that we are no different in this regard than any other form of “Christian”. We talk about how much we know and how old our tradition is, but keep on acting the way we like rather than how Christ showed us to.

And from the way many of us speak, we certainly do make it sound as if we think all things Catholic will save us, or at least put us in “first class”.

I think people are more than insincere, I think we are willfully ignorant.

We believe what we want to be true, rather than what Christ said was true.

We are all in some ways making a mockery of Christ’s life and message. But the point about this forums is not so much to feret out whether we are all good Christians (unless one is totally delusional, we all know we fall short of the ideal), but whether the teachings that we follow is the true teaching of Christ, because as Pope Benedict puts it: Orthopraxis (right practice) follows from Orthodoxy (right doctrine).

To one extent or another our actions stem from what we believe. True, it happens that we may believe something that we don’t follow but over all what we truly belive exerts a very strong pull on our actions.

A person who is totally convinced he is saved by faith alone and once saved always saved can live a smug life completely overlooking christ’s other injunctions to love and service.

Someone who believes fornication is okay will live accordingly.

Truth matters. And we can get to it to some degree. It is not completely elusive.

And hopefully having established that, we can then all live truthful lives (we hope by God’s grace )

So to go back to the issue at hand. How does one define a Christian? A good definition would be one who believes in Christ and follows his commands

StMarina’s original question relates to the latter: the following of his command.

It is one thing to believe that he commanded something (e.g. love your neighbor) and yet we are not doing it.

It is altogether another thing to say he did not command it that is why we are not doing it. Because he was very clear about this commandment to eat his body and drink his blood.

 

[reteeks21]

We are all in some ways making a mockery of Christ’s life and message. But the point about this forums is not so much to feret out whether we are all good Christians (unless one is totally delusional, we all know we fall short of the ideal), but whether the teachings that we follow is the true teaching of Christ, because as Pope Benedict puts it: Orthopraxis (right practice) follows from Orthodoxy (right doctrine).

To one extent or another our actions stem from what we believe. True, it happens that we may believe something that we don’t follow but over all what we truly belive exerts a very strong pull on our actions.

---

A person who is totally convinced he is saved by faith alone and once saved always saved can live a smug life completely overlooking christ’s other injunctions to love and service.***

Someone who believes fornication is okay will live accordingly.

Truth matters. And we can get to it to some degree. It is not completely elusive.

And hopefully having established that, we can then all live truthful lives (we hope by God’s grace )

So to go back to the issue at hand. How does one define a Christian? A good definition would be one who believes in Christ and follows his commands

StMarina’s original question relates to the latter: the following of his command.

It is one thing to believe that he commanded something (e.g. love your neighbor) and yet we are not doing it.

It is altogether another thing to say he did not command it that is why we are not doing it. Because he was very clear about this commandment to eat his body and drink his blood.

That is erroneous statement. It is too broad and inclusive. It throws us all in there. I have never heard anything like that taught in any protestant church. Sure, there are some protestants who act like that, but I have heard, personally, some catholics say that they didn’t need to read their Bibles, or that all they had to do was go to confession after they did whatever they wanted to do. Now, I am certainly not lumping all catholics into that category. That, too, would be erroneous. To be honest, I think the very small percentage of prots and caths who do act like that are the reason why so many folks have incorrect perceptions about each other.

 

[benedictus2]

Brace yourself, I am about to talk Scripture to explain it.

Anyway, Jesus said that to have eternal life, you must be born again of water and the Spirit. We have always understood that to mean Baptism as well as daily conversion to Christ from sin.

The John 6 passage talks about having life WITHIN you. In other words, partaking of Heaven while on earth. Jesus does not say that you must eat his flesh to have eternal life (Baptism is required for that) but he says that if you do not, you will not have the Life within you while on earth.

Does that make sense?

I applauded your reply and I don’t take that back but here’s a correction.

Christ does say you will have eternal life verses 51, 54 and 58 infact.

However, the gaining of eternal life is not limited to this. He promises eternal life to those who eat but He does not say those who don’t are damned.

I am beginning to become convinced that Jesus is showing as many paths as possible to follow Him. It’s just that in the Catholic faith, it seems all these paths have been opened up for us to follow, not just one.

 

[sandusky]

ralphinal:

What are you Catholic? You just say no?

Should we make a bridge out of you?

What you said makes no sense, but is a tiptoe around what I said.

The CC has become inconsistent, incoherent, and seeker-friendly in her doctrines concerning non-catholics; in fact, I believe VII was the genesis of the seeker-friendly church movement.
Go infallible magisterium!