Are those who do not receive Jesus in Holy Eucharist really Christians? Is it insanity for them to continue claiming to be Christians?

[Reuben_J]

One is a Christian if he/she been baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and believe in the reason behind it.

Sacraments have been part of Christian life - an outward sign of inward grace. Of course, we should live a sacramental life to enhance our faith because we are nothing on our own.

Now whether one is a Christian by not living a sacramental life is a hard question. I suppose you still are but it makes you a nominal one. It’s another thing though not to believe in them (the Sacraments). Why shouldn’t a Christian believes in things that are Christian?

 

[valiermn]

So Stmarina303ad Are Roman Catholics Christians? were Jesus and st Peter orthodox?

 

[Gamera]

So Stmarina303ad Are Roman Catholics Christians? were Jesus and st Peter orthodox?

You misunderstand. According to Catholicism, a valid baptism makes a person a Christian, not necessarily a Catholic Christian.

 

[Publisher]

You raise a good point here, but what you are failing to understand the difference between what men do and what the Catholic church believes as one body in Jesus Christ. Our unity is complete in Jesus Christ through the sacraments, especially his Eucharist this makes us one Holy Catholic church. What you find trouble with is the ancient old argument of Pride of men. Please dont confuse the apostolic teachings and faith these past 2000 years unchanged with cultural and language pride of men. This is the difference next to authority you see on the outside looking in.

As far as the One Holy Catholic Apostolic church is still here today for 2000 years unchanged founded by Jesus Christ himself upon Peter and the apostles.

Understood that is what you believe…but those points have not brought the Catholic church, Orthodox church, Oriental church, Coptic church into the “unity of the faith”…if the Eucharist makes “us one Holy Catholic church” yet the Orthodox do not allow intercommunion with Catholics except in extreme circumstances…but then in extreme circumstances a Protestant would or could be give access to the Eucharist.

My point is having what you and your “aposolic brethren” call the “fullness of faith” has not made those who embrace “apostolic authority”…one…it’s simply another issue from which to divide from one another.

The “apostolic teaching and faith passed on for 2000 years” seems to me, in my ignorance I’m sure, not made those who claim it…one either.

The “apostolic faith” hasn’t really made any difference in unity among those that embrace it. It is used as a tool to “exclude” others as well. Same thing many of the “apostolic faith” claim Protestants do by our different communions…I fail to see a difference it has made in unity between Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic, Oriental Orthodox, Ethiopian…etc.

Please know, this is not an indictment against you…it is more of an observation that what “we” are accused of by “you”, “you” do among "yourselves. Holding those beliefs of ‘authority’, "eucharist’, "priesthood’ has not promoted charity and mercy between your…“eccleastical communities”.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Understood that is what you believe…but those points have not brought the Catholic church, Orthodox church, Oriental church, Coptic church into the “unity of the faith”…if the Eucharist makes “us one Holy Catholic church” yet the Orthodox do not allow intercommunion with Catholics except in extreme circumstances…but then in extreme circumstances a Protestant would or could be give access to the Eucharist.

My point is having what you and your “aposolic brethren” call the “fullness of faith” has not made those who embrace “apostolic authority”…one…it’s simply another issue from which to divide from one another.

The “apostolic teaching and faith passed on for 2000 years” seems to me, in my ignorance I’m sure, not made those who claim it…one either.

The “apostolic faith” hasn’t really made any difference in unity among those that embrace it. It is used as a tool to “exclude” others as well. Same thing many of the “apostolic faith” claim Protestants do by our different communions…I fail to see a difference it has made in unity between Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic, Oriental Orthodox, Ethiopian…etc.

Please know, this is not an indictment against you…it is more of an observation that what “we” are accused of by “you”, “you” do among "yourselves. Holding those beliefs of ‘authority’, "eucharist’, "priesthood’ has not promoted charity and mercy between your…“eccleastical communities”.

What your comments to me; are seen more as political not faith or Apostolic Traditional faith. We can go on for days explaining the differences between Catholic culturals and languages that seperate us, but it does not change our fundamental belief’s.

I believe you are mistaken to compare Catholic cultural or “Rites” differences to Protestant, fundamentalism, Evangelicals and non catholic christian belief’s. The latter have distinct belief’s in who Jesus is, and neither agree with each other about what constitutes faith. This is a huge fundamental difference than a Catholic “Rite” difference. Those not in communion with the holy see, still have the apostolic belief system other than authority that seperates us next to geography and language, but still the same Catholic church.

 

[Peter_J]

Please know, this is not an indictment against you…it is more of an observation that what “we” are accused of by “you”, “you” do among "yourselves. Holding those beliefs of ‘authority’, "eucharist’, "priesthood’ has not promoted charity and mercy between your…“eccleastical communities”.

Your comparison seems to me to be a little bit of a stretch. Catholics – by which I mean those in full communion with the Pope, not counting the Eastern Orthodox or anyone else that we aren’t in full communion with – number over 1 billion world-wide.

The Anglican Communion (for example – we could just as well consider the Lutheran World Federation, or the World Methodist Council, etc.) numbers about 77 million.

But more important than the numbers is the fact the “unity” in the two cases is completely different. The “unity” (if you can even call it that ) that Anglicans have is a much more liberal sort of “unity”. (I’ll assume that I don’t need to elaborate on that claim.)

 

[BSHoop96]

I realize what the thread is about and I’m sorry if I offended you but what you said was clear.

**We as catholics believe it takes a little more than that. Like in marriage, it takes more than just a belief in marriage and a promise. It takes practicing what you’ve promised for the rest of your life. Catholics believe that means receiving the Eucharist and other Holy Sacraments. **

Essentially I’m in agreement with you.

That’s all I meant. Again, sorry.

No need to be sorry…you did not offend me. Btw, I am Catholic. The whole point I have been trying to make is that the Catholic church accepts certain other faiths as “Christian”. As an example, that is why converts who have been previously baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are NOT rebaptized upon entering the Church. I would say that makes the answer to the OP pretty clear that the Church considers them Christian whether or not they believe in the “true presence”, although they do see them as lacking the fullness of the Catholic faith.

 

[brownjt]

I have to strongly disagree. If someone believes in the Trinity, believes that Jesus suffered and died for their salvation and will receive it thru His mercy then they are Christian. Because their sincere belief is not exactly the same as ours does not make them a non-Christian. It makes them a Christian “without the fullness of the faith”. I would just venture a guess here that even the Pope would give you an argument on this one.

Well, that’s because catholics are very defensive because they think they got it wrong? Nooo - catholics are at the point of the spear of christianity - they are the oldest and the foundation of our faith. But the true foundation of the faith is Jesus Christ and his words - and he was very explicit yet simple and profound in his requirements for entering the kingdom of God - forget the princess analogy. The Holy sacrarments which they honor to a fault are the glue that keeps or kept the community of believers together in tough times before the scriptures were written and are to be considered truly mystical. These should be honored in the other denominations as wel. Buuuutttt…all must read and reflect on the words of christ - the “church of christ” is the body of christ and the body of christ are ALL of his believers.

For some reason, catholics are told that the rest of us are in error, not to go their Bible studies. No matter how many time you do the sacraments - the word of god, repentance, redemption,etc must be on your lips and in your heart… I fear that one day the anti-christ will use this to divide the christians and catholics from each other. The devil tested his technique in Northern Ireland.

 

[brownjt]

Your comparison seems to me to be a little bit of a stretch. Catholics – by which I mean those in full communion with the Pope, not counting the Eastern Orthodox or anyone else that we aren’t in full communion with – number over 1 billion world-wide.

The Anglican Communion (for example – we could just as well consider the Lutheran World Federation, or the World Methodist Council, etc.) numbers about 77 million.

But more important than the numbers is the fact the “unity” in the two cases is completely different. The “unity” (if you can even call it that ) that Anglicans have is a much more liberal sort of “unity”. (I’ll assume that I don’t need to elaborate on that claim.)

**Depends on you count the numbers. If the Baptists counted family members as other churches do their numbers would be huge in the USA.

Jesus will not care about numbers or unity - he will judge each one of us - each one of us - not by the church we belonged to but whether we believed in Him and kept His word and did not deny Him.

I personally believe that there is a purgatory for those who count Him as their Savior and a heaven for those who count Him as their Lord. We all know the difference. Most of us will end up in the first. This aspect of catholic belief I adhere to. The only problem is that I am afraid that many catholic think that their works will get them to the second. Maybe a generalization.**

 

[ChristianKnight]

Pick one! Become one! And see what it is really like to actually be a Christian!

God Bless everyone! Let’s be sure to respect everyone’s opinions even if we should disagree with one another. God loves us all and we are to love each other.

Explain, if you will please, why I am not a Christian.

The two statements are rather hypocritical

 

[brownjt]

My, my…such bitterness. How would you describe yourself?.. you come on here and ridicule our faith, painting us all with the same brush, when you must have just read a couple of previous threads arguing against the OP’s opinion that non-Catholics are non-Christian.

As far as the parts of your post I have bolded…you obviously know nothing of the history, teachings, or tradition of the Catholic church which explains the uninformed way you mention these things, mostly glaringly, the statement that we think “these things” will save us. Christ will save us.

There are insincere people in all religions. That is not the fault of religion.

The catholics here in this site seem to come across as defensive and maybe a weee bit alittle sanctimonious - why? The split happened many many years ago - it is over. The word of God lives on - glad someone became a martyr by having the Bible translated to English - or we would have to accepted what people in authority say about what was read in Latin…Really though, because one faith does not believe in the real presence does not exclude them from heaven. They need to follow JC’s words. But the sacraments are wonderful though - outward signs of inward grace - all denominations should be devoted to them as catholics are.

 

[benedictus2]

The catholics here in this site seem to come across as defensive and maybe a weee bit alittle sanctimonious - why? The split happened many many years ago - it is over. The word of God lives on - glad someone became a martyr by having the Bible translated to English - or we would have to accepted what people in authority say about what was read in Latin…Really though, because one faith does not believe in the real presence does not exclude them from heaven. They need to follow JC’s words. But the sacraments are wonderful though - outward signs of inward grace - all denominations should be devoted to them as catholics are.

1. Who was the person who became a martyr for the sole reason of translating the Bible into English?

2)True, not believing in the real presence will not exclude you from heaven, but when you get to heaven you’ll say: Well blow me down, the Catholics got it right after all.

Besides there’d be nothing new in that. Many stopped following him to because of this teaching that is too hard to stomach .

 

[benedictus2]

Funny how threads take on a life of their own. You can open a thread entitled “Should Catholic school parents get tuition tax credit?” and find a two-page argument about whether to bury a St Joseph statute to sell a house.

One thing that annoys me though is how someone starts a thread and then exits and let’s everyone else “fight it out”. There is I think something devilish in that.

 

[benedictus2]

Inconsistent, and frightened of the Gospel, which she doesn’t understand, IMO.

Who’s frightened of the Gospel. If memory serves me right you’ve left a lot of unanswered questions regarding the Gospel on another thread.

But that’s okay. If you want to read and defend just some parts of the Bible we’ll that’s probably all God is asking you to do. The entire Scripture may be a bit much.

 

[benedictus2]

I am very impressed. Seriously. Most non-Catholic Denominations do not focus that heavily on any one book of the Bible. For that you should be commended.

I asked that because I have been to non-Catholic Churches where the only time Jesus was mentioned was when Paul did it. Surely you can see how that is problematic.

:clapping:

 

[benedictus2]

Sleep well and God bless.

Thank you. Hope you had a restful one too.

Did not have a very good sleep. Funny posts and furious posts still in head. Thanks goodness I did not have to go to work today.

 

[benedictus2]

I personally believe that there is a purgatory for those who count Him as their Savior and a heaven for those who count Him as their Lord. We all know the difference. Most of us will end up in the first. This aspect of catholic belief I adhere to. The only problem is that I am afraid that many catholic think that their works will get them to the second. Maybe a generalization.

Here wo go again with “I personally believe.” Truth is not subjected. What you think we believe is not what we believe at all.
So do some digging and find out what we actually believe.

If some Catholics think their works will get them to heaven it will not be without Biblical support either. Read Matthew 25 in particular verses 31-46 although the other verses amount to the same thing.

Remember Jesus said it is not those who call Him Lord, Lord who will enter the kingdom but “THOSE WHO DO THE WILL OF MY FATHER”

So yes, fiind out what we actually believe. Read Rome Sweet Home by Scott Hahn.

 

[Peter_J]

The catholics here in this site seem to come across as defensive and maybe a weee bit alittle sanctimonious

I absolutely agree with you that people should be so defensive and sanctimonious, but …

• why? The split happened many many years ago - it is over.

The split did happen many many years ago, but it isn’t correct to say that it is over: we are still divided.

Indeed, we are arguably more divided now then we were in the 400 years ago, since we (Catholics) have since then dogmatically defined the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption, Papal Infallibility and Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction, and you (Protestants) have accepted contraception (to take just one example).

The word of God lives on - glad someone became a martyr by having the Bible translated to English

Who?

 

[BSHoop96]

The catholics here in this site seem to come across as defensive and maybe a weee bit alittle sanctimonious - why? The split happened many many years ago - it is over. The word of God lives on - glad someone became a martyr by having the Bible translated to English - or we would have to accepted what people in authority say about what was read in Latin…Really though, because one faith does not believe in the real presence does not exclude them from heaven. They need to follow JC’s words. But the sacraments are wonderful though - outward signs of inward grace - all denominations should be devoted to them as catholics are.

*sigh…why are you posting this to me?? *This is the problem with coming in a thread and reading parts (I do it too). I never said ANYTHING about the split at all.
I was responding to those who were saying that other faiths that do not believe in the real presence are not Christian. The Catholic Church DOES NOT believe that. It is shown clearly when they do not rebaptize a convert who was already baptized (in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) that they consider these converts ALREADY Christians. I’ll think I’ll leave now as this thread is just getting more and more confused.

 

[Reuben_J]

For some reason, catholics are told that the rest of us are in error, not to go their Bible studies. No matter how many time you do the sacraments - the word of god, repentance, redemption,etc must be on your lips and in your heart… I fear that one day the anti-christ will use this to divide the christians and catholics from each other. The devil tested his technique in Northern Ireland.

Please be reasonable. If you teach against Apostolic Succession, Real Presence and Perpetual Virginity you are teaching against the Catholic Church. Sensiblity dictates that Catholics, especially those who are still young in the faith, shouldn’t go to to this Bible study. It only confuse them.

I have been going to an ecuminical gatherings with Protestants. I can say that we have all that you have, and more, but what we have you don’t. All are important aspects of Christian life. We just take the line that we should not choose what have been passed down to us. We don’t want to be convenient Christians who only take the teachings and practices which we like and dump those that we don’t like.

The Devil will use anything that can cause the destruction of God’s Kingdom. Surely knowing that the case, it’s vital for Christians to be one. But history has shown us differently. When they disagreed, well, we just went on their own.