Are thoughts sins

[Theboi]

Do bad thoughts like thoughts of murder or violence when one is angry still a mortal sin. Are they sins at all. I have these sometimes what do I do I imagine something like snapping fingers and the person would be gone, or just blasting them away when I am extremely angry at them

Do bad thoughts like thoughts of violence or murder when angry or theft when given the oppurtinity, instanteous thoughts or voluntary, or a combination of both it does not matter, still count as still count as said sin. As in I understand its bad and a sin but does count as the sin and murder in itself not the sin of thought

 

[BridgetN]

Thoughts like that and any willful bad thoughts are sins. Depends on the situation wether they are mortal sins or not.

 

[Theboi]

1. Secondly say you do harbor some evil say you want to steal something but you still don’t is this just thought of sin or theft aswell

 

[Theboi]

So would circumstances like a fit of anger but not be willing to do it if I had the chance be venial

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I tend to think if a bad thought comes into my mind for a split second, whether it is thinking about violence or lust or stealing or whatever, and I put the bad thought right out of my mind immediately saying NO I reject that sin, I will not think in that way, then it was just a temptation and I do not consider it a sin.

If I instead welcomed the thought and continued to think it for a few minutes or longer, then to me that’s a sin.

As someone said, thoughts can be momentary or involuntary, brought on by a strong emotion or by suddenly seeing something that tempts you. If it’s just momentary or happens for a second when you’re very angry, then you probably didn’t consent with your free will to have the thought. If, however, you decided to think about the thought for a while, then you would be consenting to have the thought and it would be sinful.

 

[Arwing]

I think that with “bad thoughts” it can get tricky to give a principled approach as to when there’s sin, but ultimately it’s going to come down to consent which is admittedly not always obvious for everyone.

For some, there might be scrupulous tendencies to doubt whether consent was given i.e. “I think I might have welcomed the thought voluntarily but I’m not sure!” and in a case like that, I think one just has to trust in God and know one’s own inner disposition – for instance some of the people who make posts about intrusive thoughts seem to clearly not be consenting to them, or there is a sort of “partial” consent that comes along with the kind of over-analytical or doubtful thought patterns they have, but they’re not actively trying to do things that are sinful in their thoughts. Of course something like this is best dealt with with one’s confessor and possibly a medical professional if necessary.

Anyway @Theboi, at the risk of being redundant here, I’d like to add that having a thought that “I want to do X bad thing” or “I am going to do X bad thing” or “if I could do X bad thing I would” doesn’t automatically mean there is sin. It will be a sin if one were to give clear and voluntary consent (and the thought is meant). So for instance if I was angry and a thought enters my mind that “I want to hurt this person” and then actually think and realize, “no, I wouldn’t do anything like that” then I wouldn’t seem to be guilty of having committed my will to an evil desire. I just would have had an emotionally-induced thought that wasn’t really voluntary.

 

[F_Marturana]

Some people though have OCD and/or scrupulouslity and can’t really control their thoughts. I often feel that could be the case when this question comes up.

Sometimes temptations are strong, then the person with OCD thinks they are entertaining the thought, even though the thought is unwanted and intrusive. Then they feel they have sinned, which further fuels the scrupulosity.

My son struggles with scrupulosity. It’s very hard.

I do too, to a lesser extent. Sometimes I get bad thoughts, we all do. I know I don’t mean them and they are something I would never actually do. I sometimes attribute them to an overactive imagination. I try to change the direction of the thought, and incorporate it in a fictional story. Like for example, I get mad and think, “I’d like to just smack that annoying lady”. I wouldn’t do that in real life. I then think of a short movie scene or book passage featuring someone who actually does that and faces consequences for acting like an idiot. That’s just what I do. I don’t know if it works for everyone.

I’m a revert, and the terrible thoughts I had following my first confession in a decade were incredible. I kept worrying if my confession was invalid, and worried that I forgot something.

It’s hard to be scrupulous and to distinguish between temptations and sin.

 

[Seagull]

(For the weapons of our warfare - are not carnal,
but mighty - through God - to the pulling down of strong holds;
Casting down imaginations,
and every high thing -
that exalteth itself - against the knowledge of God,
and bringing into captivity
every thought
to the obedience of Christ;
And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise,
that they are vain.

 

[Genesis315]

Yes, if done voluntarily. Just like adultery can be committed in one’s heart, so can others ins. From the Catechism’s section on this commandment against murder:

2302 By recalling the commandment, "You shall not kill,"93 our Lord asked for peace of heart and denounced murderous anger and hatred as immoral.
Anger is a desire for revenge. “To desire vengeance in order to do evil to someone who should be punished is illicit,” but it is praiseworthy to impose restitution "to correct vices and maintain justice."94 If anger reaches the point of a deliberate desire to kill or seriously wound a neighbor, it is gravely against charity; it is a mortal sin. the Lord says, "Everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment."95

2303 Deliberate hatred is contrary to charity. Hatred of the neighbor is a sin when one deliberately wishes him evil. Hatred of the neighbor is a grave sin when one deliberately desires him grave harm. "But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven."96

 

[ascetic]

Short answer: inadvertent=no, conscious/willing=yes, combo=no. As serious as doing it=DUH

Longer answer: I’ve had those myself, but more so with lustful thoughts. I used to confess them all on the stated grounds that if an inadvertent thought pops into my head, then there must be some sin there. None of the priests ever said anything to me about it. In retrospect, I think they were just humoring me like a kid who shows his mother a splinter when he’s running a fever. To continue that metaphor, I would also be nasty to people, sometimes even with the intent of provoking them, and I would willingly accept lustful thoughts (the fevers as opposed to the splinters). Also in retrospect, I think that the grace I received from the sacrament of Reconciliation (and also Anointing of the Sick) has helped minimize both of those categories. As of typing this, I recognize either category quickly, lift them up to God for help, and move on. I also have fewer inadvertent thoughts. I don’t know if you can take anything away from my experience, but I hope I have helped you somehow. God Bless You.

 

[Genesis315]

I just wanted to add that in the Confiteor in the Roman Rite, we say “peccavi nimis cogitatione” (I have sinned think/in my thoughts) and then ask for forgiveness.

 

[joeybaggz]

Watched a TV program recently where the bad guy killed a whole bunch of innocent people. When they caught him, I was wishing he’d make some kind of mistake so the good guys would shoot him.
Watched a bank robbery on TV recently. Thought it would be cool to have all that money.
Sins, I don’t think so. You may disagree but I think that’s bordering on scrupulosity
As with the concept of lust, IMO sexual desire is wholesome and good, God gave it to us. We are wired that way and God did the wiring. Sexual thoughts only become lust when both malice and intent become operative.
One has to deliberately choose a thought to be corrupted by malice and intent to be sinful.

 

[jcrichton]

Here’s Jesus’ take on this matter:

22 But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou Fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee; 24 Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift.
27 You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. 28 But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell. 30 And if thy right hand scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell. (St. Matthew 5)

Some ‘feel-good’ theologists spouse the idea that “Christians” can have battle with God and can think things without any personal consequences other than as a “healthy” outlet. Christ is quite severe: ‘if you sin in your mind/heart, you’ve committed the sin as if you’ve physically carried it out.’ (paraphrased)

Christ did not believe in “fantasy role play:”

20 But he said that the things which come out from a man, they defile a man. 21 For from within out of the heart of men proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile a man. (St. Mark 7)

Thoughts can lead us to loss of Salvation:

14 But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured. 15 Then when concupiscence hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin. But sin, when it is completed, begetteth death. (St. James 1)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yeah, God also Gave us: Be Holy for I AM HOLY.

The Call is not to enjoy everything but to seek out what is Good, what is Pleasing to God.

If we dismiss our thoughts as ok or a God-given gift, then all proceedings would seem as good.

The reality is that when we embrace sin/lustful desire (and we can lust after food, power, control, exploitation, oppression, money, and yes, sex) we are not getting closer to God but actually getting closer to Satan, which we all know is anti-Christian:

1 From whence are wars and contentions among you? Are they not hence, from your concupiscences, which war in your members? 2 You covet, and have not: you kill, and envy, and can not obtain. You contend and war, and you have not, because you ask not. 3 You ask, and receive not; because you ask amiss: that you may consume it on your concupiscences. 4 Adulterers, know you not that the friendship of this world is the enemy of God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of this world, becometh an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the scripture saith in vain: To envy doth the spirit covet which dwelleth in you? 6 But he giveth greater grace. Wherefore he saith: God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. 7 Be subject therefore to God, but resist the devil, and he will fly from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners: and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned into mourning, and your joy into sorrow. 10 Be humbled in the sight of the Lord, and he will exalt you. (St. James 4)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[joeybaggz]

The reality is that when we embrace sin/lustful desire

That’s the problem with pontificators like yourself. You assume a thought is lustful. You consider human desire automatically sinful. No wonder 70 to 80% of Catholics turn their back on the faith when there are people like you who preach sin, lust, anger, and all other sins are your default position for the human experience.

 

[Theboi]

Yes but lust is sin so is anger I understand would having anger be equivalent to commuting it irl and if you truly don’t desire to do the action like Hurting someone but is it still a si

 

[jcrichton]

Thank you for comparing me to the Pope and Jesus!

Yes, it hurts to demand that we own up to our determinate choice to seek to engage sin rather than flee from it!

Jesus did not play around with terminology: you are lustful in your heart, you have committed the sin. While it is true that Jesus was speaking to the act of sexual lust, yet only those who seek to live the ‘feel-good’ theology cannot see the reality that Jesus is speaking to all sin… lusting after power, money, food, the world’s adulation, etc. is the same as lusting sexually for another.

It is not I that made the declaration: For out of the heart come evil thoughts and If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out… It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Yeah, what a pontificator that Jesus was–imagine, He throws out the idea that we must remove the source of that which causes/calls us to sin… wow, Who did He think He was, God?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[joeybaggz]

Thank you for comparing me to the Pope and Jesus!

Yes, it hurts to demand that we own up to our determinate choice to seek to engage sin rather than flee from it!

Jesus did not play around with terminology: you are lustful in your heart, you have committed the sin. While it is true that Jesus was speaking to the act of sexual lust, yet only those who seek to live the ‘feel-good’ theology cannot see the reality that Jesus is speaking to all sin… lusting after power, money, food, the world’s adulation, etc. is the same as lusting sexuality for another.

It is not I that made the declaration: For out of the heart come evil thoughts and If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out… It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Yeah, what a pontificator!

Maran atha!

Angel

You know, for once I agree with you. Pontificator is not the right word. I think Pharisee is closer to the truth. You see I agree with the statement you quote, I just have a big problem with the fact that your default position is always man is sinful in his thoughts, his desires, and his actions, if he doesn’t quite always do it your way. I’m not too good at quoting Scripture verbatim, but I did remember Jesus once rebuking the Pharisees saying “the bind up men with their laws, but they don’t obey them themselves.” No I am not accusing you of citing laws and then disregarding them in your actions. It is your positions that come through in your posts.

 

[LittleFlower]

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=531831

A thought or imagination is not by itself sinful. However, if some sinful idea comes into our minds and we embrace it with our will - meaning you would like to do it, then it is the same category of sin (mortal or venial) as the sin if done externally. Thus, it is a mortal sin of fornication or adultery to want to have immoral sexual relations, and a second mortal sin to actually have them.

If they are involuntary, then like others have said, it most likely is not a sin.

I usually go to those thoughts “No, and move along now”. And if they are involuntary and plaguing me, I usually listen to gospel music, pray, have a shower, or call someone to give my mind something else to focus on.

 

[Kei]

Mortal sins need to be voluntary.
If you have a thought that would be sinful but do not like it, then you are not at fault for it so much.

If you have a thought that is sinful and you willfully enjoy it, that’s another thing.