No, I mean reactionary traditionalists who hate everything about Vatican II not just the abuses, and believe me there are plenty of them, in union and not. And just because latinizations were banned, doesn’t mean there aren’t Latins who try.
Ironically enough many times when I go to Liturgy in Ukrainian, I am the only one there that is from the Latin rite, but at the same time I am the only one who stands the entire time…
Christ is born! Glorify Him!
I recently ran into two PhD students who are parishioners there at Divine Liturgy and supper and discussion at the Patriarch Athenagoras Orthodox Institute. It was their first time there and they seemed to be really enjoying themselves. The visitors from that parish, and these two students are nearly all in their 20s and 30s. I don’t know if that would make a difference.What do you mean by the tradition? Do you mean Latin traditions or Eastern ones as they are NOT the same.
Well, that one is a “yes, but …” It’s probably not to get the wrong idea about that. The preservation of traditional liturgical languages, whether in whole or at least in part) is an issue in the East and Orient, albeit not quite the same issue it is in the Latin Church.
Depends on the Rite and who you talk to.
That’s the point: it’s not a cut-and-dried matter within the East and Orient, irrespective of the Church. But to say that the issue does not exist is incorrect. As I said earlier, while the issue of preservation of liturgical language is not exactly the same (and doesn’t hinge on the quite the same arguments) in the East and Orient as in the Latin Church, but it does exist.
The use of Church Slavonic in Ruthenian parishes can become a heated issue. Although English is the norm trying to get a little Church Slavonic can be problematic…just try to get a whole Church Slavonic Liturgy these days.
The Ruthenian Church is no longer an ethnic Church which is why our Eparchies have dropped Ruthenian from their names.
I haven’t met someone from Ukraine who shares this opinion.
Latinizations. Also since Eastern parishes may not have been that prevalent in the past, many would have gone to Roman Catholic parishes and would have carried the practices back to the Eastern parish when it is established. I know most of the people in my parish kneel during Consecration and during Prayers before Communion and after receiving. But coming into the parish I already realize the traditions and so I never kneel, although at times it does feel akward that the new guy is the only one standing
We’re in the same boatIronically enough many times when I go to Liturgy in Ukrainian, I am the only one there that is from the Latin rite, but at the same time I am the only one who stands the entire time…
The reality is the Bishops want NOT to be an ethnic church and have tried dropping the word Ruthenian from the name of the church. The question is do they want to be a non ethnic church or just ashamed of who they are? Rome sees things a bit differently and has not allowed them to officially drop the term Ruthenian Greek Catholic. I also dislike how they have tried to monopolize the term “Byzantine Catholic”, to the exclusion of the rest of the Byzantine Catholic Churches.
Adeodatus: Welcome! I am also a Traditional Catholic, and what I found was that the Byzantine Rite was even more traditional, even more beautiful, and breath-taking, and heavenly than what I had seen in the Tridentine Mass. So I stayed here. There are struggles with liturgical abuses in the East as well, but except when they are said by biritual Roman-rite priests (which is often a disaster) the abuses are on a totally different order than they are on the West.
The fact that Catholics have clung to Slavonic long after most Orthodox gave it up is because we are closer to the Old Believers than the Russian Orthodox are.Same here! (Though as soon as my canonical transfer is complete, I won’t be “Latin” in any respect whatsoever any more - but I wasn’t born Byzantine.)
They might be. Some parishes have more Latins than Byzantines.
Where do you dream this stuff up from?Adeodatus: Welcome! I am also a Traditional Catholic, and what I found was that the Byzantine Rite was even more traditional, even more beautiful, and breath-taking, and heavenly than what I had seen in the Tridentine Mass. So I stayed here. There are struggles with liturgical abuses in the East as well, but except when they are said by biritual Roman-rite priests (which is often a disaster) the abuses are on a totally different order than they are on the West.
That being said, the Byzantine Rite IS different than the Roman Rite, and a lot of the hostility coming from Byzantine Catholics towards the “Latin exiles” that come to our Liturgy is because people from the Roman Rite often do not take the time to research our customs and traditions in order to see how it is supposed to be done - instead they take with them a lot of Roman customs which don’t belong in the East, and which they often insist on retaining.
For example, standing and kneeling have different significances in the East and the West. Your kneeling is our standing; we stand not out of lack of reverence for Our Lord (as one perceives in the Novus Ordo - I will kneel for Communion whenever I have to go to a Novus Ordo) but because of respect for Him. Kneeling has a strictly penitential meaning to it and is forbidden by our canons (those of the Quinisext Council, I believe - its canons regarding faith and praxis are authoritative in the East) on Sundays. So if you go to Divine Liturgy, please do not kneel. It IS appropriate to make a minor prostration (bowing from your waist and touching the floor before making the Sign of the Cross) at the epiklesis (when the priest says “Changing them by His Holy Spirit. Amen, Amen, Amen” - note that this prayer which completes the act of “transubstantiation” occurs AFTER the Words of Institution, unlike in the Roman Rite) if you do not have pews in your way.
Secondly, when you enter a church, what we before taking our place in the pews (if your church has pews - traditionally, the church wouldn’t) is not the Eucharist which is behind the iconostas but the icons. So, instead of making a genuflection, it is appropriate to make a deep bow from your waist. Old Believers will make a minor or even a great prostration when entering a church, and then another one as Liturgy starts. I make a single minor prostration before kissing the icon on the tetrapod (the four-legged table in front of the iconostas) - you should always venerate that icon before going to your pew.
Finally, just be respectful of that fact that a lot of traditions you may be used to - statues, kneeling, the Rosary, the Stations of the Cross, Latin, Low Masses, confessionals, churches stripped of their iconostases - do not belong in the East, and a lot of resentment towards Tridentine Catholics comes from the fact that before Vatican II a lot of these Latinizations were imposed on the Byzantine Rite. Vatican II was as good for us as it was disastrous for you (and actually, the process started with Pius XII before Vatican II). The generally liberal climate of Vatican II helped us gain acceptance, ironically enough; it is unfortunate that most Tridentine Catholics still regard it is a deviation tainted with “the errors of the Greeks” simply because it is non-Roman and non-Tridentine. This isn’t because it’s liberal; aside from a couple of translation issues in the Revised Divine Liturgy, it’s as Traditional and “conservative” as you could possibly want. Heck, we haven’t even introduced such liberal innovations as the ORGAN yet!
Brother David: Old Church Slavonic is our sacred language. It isn’t “traditional” for us to have Liturgy in the vernacular - I’ll believe that when you convince the Old Believers.
Basically we are non-ethnic. We do not have a large immigrant community coming over here to the US as the Ukrainians and Melkites do.
Semantics. That is not what is being done.
Well … the expression “sacred language” might be a bit over-the-top, but I’ll say that “traditional liturgical language” is right on target. As I recall, OCS was based on a vulgar tongue (Old Bulgarian and/or Old Macedonian if I remember correctly) but was itself never a spoken language.