Are Unitarians Christians?

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Being a Christian, as understood by the Catholic Church, entails subscribing to the tenents listed in the Nicean Creed.

As such, the Church does not consider Unitarians to be a Christian ecclesial community.
 
Being a Christian, as understood by the Catholic Church, entails subscribing to the tenents listed in the Nicean Creed.

As such, the Church does not consider Unitarians to be a Christian ecclesial community.
Last year, when some of my high school classmates, took a short trip to St. Louis, the home of the order who taught us…the Madames of the Sacred Heart…I learned a lot about Unitarians. One of my good friends during my high school years, attended. She had married a Unitarian “minister” & left the faith of her childhood. Noone said a word about that, but an odd thing happened. We were touring the riverfront & the Gateway Arch on Sunday, so we stopped for Mass at the Old Cathedral built beside the Mississippi river. It was 97 degrees & the humidity was high as it always is in this state during the summer. It was SUPER high by the river. My friend started to sit down on a bench outside the Church during Mass & I couldn’t help but tell her that she could just come inside & sit in the back of the Cathedral to keep cool. She wouldn’t enter the Cathedral even to cool off. This says to me that she feels MUCH guilt about leaving the Catholic faith.

Considering her upbringing this brought me great sadness. Her Father left her Mother shortly after my friend was born. He just walked out on two children, never helped financially, in fact my friend had never spoken with her father. Her Mother, worked & went to night school to earn a degree in education. That woman worked as a teacher for many years & was finally made dean of women at a local public high school. She scraped & scrimped…had no car for years & lived in a rundown neighborhood close to the school where she worked. She sent both of those children through twelve years of Catholic school & was an active parent in our high school.

I learned from her that Unitarians did not believe in the Divinity of Christ. How she could leave the faith that she knew so well, that had sustained her Mother through years of poverty & long work hours, I’ll never know? I don’t condemn my friend, that’s not my job…but, it’s upsetting because I see so much distress in her eyes.
 
Wow, that truely is a sad, sad story. I pray she comes home.

Pax†
 
I hope this is helpful.
Which part?

I didn’t say Catholicism was a cult, I said using your definition, it could be considered so.

I also get the impression you seem to think that Unitarians are somehow lost and need to return to the fold.

“Some do, and in fact I recently read an article about a female Unitarian pastor who was motivated to steer her congreation in a less secular direction toward a more Christian-like relgious experience.”

The minister may be “motivated” however she feels drawn. Whether her congregation follows her is another question. We have no creed or doctrine and some congregations would show a minister the door for advocating anything resembling a creed or doctrine.

“Christians don’t claim to be Jewish; Unitarians/Universalists have identified themselves as Christian historically - although it seems that some make no pretense of being Christian.”

Actually, Unitarians began removing references to the trinity from their services in the late 1700s. The American Revolution and American Unitarianism could be said to have been rocked in the cradle together.

About a century later, one of the first references to the belief in God without Christian emphasis was raised in William Channing Gannett’s, The Things Most Commonly Believed Today Among Us, adopted by the Western Unitarian Conference in 1887, and which allows for non-Christian beliefs.

The importance of love for God and humanity, but without a Christian focus, was asserted by the national conference in 1894.

My point was that Christianity grew from Jewish roots, but, as you yourself said, Christians no longer claim to be Jewish.

Likewise, Unitarian Universalism grew from Christian roots, but has evolved into a religion unto its own.

There are still some Unitarian Universalists who consider themselves Christians, just as there are some who are Wiccan, Deist, Agnostic, etc. These are personal choices, not doctrinal requirements.

Seeker
 
I for one, and my fellow parishners, are always aware of our Jewish roots. And I am very proud of them. Our paster always reminds us of them. Funny coincidence, I met a lady in our newly built church this morning and she remarked at how much the architecture reminded her of synagogue.

If we weren’t aware of them we would only use the New Testament.

Pax†
 
How she could leave the faith that she knew so well, that had sustained her Mother through years of poverty & long work hours, I’ll never know? I don’t condemn my friend, that’s not my job…but, it’s upsetting because I see so much distress in her eyes.
This story is truely touching and invokes thoughts of similliar friends & relatives.
 
My question is this- the guy allegedly hated Christians. Are Unitarians even Christian?
  1. They deny the Trinity
  2. They deny the divinity of Christ
Does this make them even nominal Christians?
I do not consider Unitarians Christians. The reasons I have for this are the same as the ones you already mentioned above:
  1. They deny the Trinity
  2. They deny the divinity of Christ
Originally, all Unitarians were Christians who did not believe in the Holy Trinity of God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost). Instead, they believed in the unity, or single aspect, of God. …] Unitarianism emerged in America in the early 19th century, stressing importance of rational thinking, each person’s direct relationship with God, and the humanity of Jesus. By 1825, Unitarian ministers had formed a denomination called the American Unitarian Association. …] After growing increasingly theologically and ethically close, the Unitarian and Universalist denominations consolidated in 1961 to form the new religion of Unitarian Universalism. Although Unitarian Universalism no longer solely holds traditional Unitarian or Universalist beliefs, it does draw directly on its heritage for much of its inspiration and grounding. Source
Apart from that I found something else on the homepage of the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations:
While our congregations uphold shared principles, individual Unitarian Universalists may discern their own beliefs about theological issues. As there is no official Unitarian Universalist creed, Unitarian Universalists are free to search for truth on many paths.
We welcome people who identify with and draw inspiration from Atheism and Agnosticism, Buddhism, Christianity, Humanism, Judaism, Paganism, and other religious or philosophical traditions.
In an effort to please all the Christian Identity was completely lost. Members “may discern their own beliefs about theological issues”??

Their “seven principles” do not have anything to do with the Christian faith. All they do is stating humanist principles that most people can agree on, but this is not a Christian foundation:
There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:
  • The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
  • Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
  • Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
  • A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
  • The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
  • The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
  • Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
Unitarian Universalism (UU) draws from many sources:
  • Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
  • Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
  • Wisdom from the world’s religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
  • Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God’s love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
  • Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.
  • Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.
These principles and sources of faith are the backbone of our religious community.
This is not a Christian faith. I’d say that they are destructive towards the Christian faith.
I think they are not any more Christian than the United Nations or “Camp Quest”.

We are not told to go ahead and tell everybody to think about it and then choose their path to a belief or non-belief. We are told to “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
Jesus made it very clear when He said “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
He IS the way, He IS the truth and He IS the life. NO NONE comes to the Father except THROUGH HIM.

The do your own thing philosophy that they are presenting here is nothing but “New Age” deception. I am not making things up… My argument quotes their own internet presence…

Unitarians are not Christians.
Unitarian Universalists are not Christians either.
 
One of the things that sets UU’s apart from other Christians is what sets Friends apart as well…we seek to follow the “religion” OF Jesus and obey his ethical and moral teachings…other Christians follow a religion ABOUT Jesus as much of their time is spent defining what they are to BELIEVE about him…almost to the exclusion of his ethical and moral teachings.

IMO opinion, most Christians are overly concerned how the deity of Christ is defined…is the Trinity articulated in such and such a precise manner…what rites and rituals are to be enjoined in that “makes” one a “true Christian” and how these rites and rituals are to be conducted correctly and by whom is “authorized” to perform the rites and rituals…IMO.

Friends and UU’s have the mindset that how one behaves…how one treats his neighbor…how one responds to agression…how one seeks to build communities of peace and mercy and justice and love and how the “least of these” are treated and cared for are more important than creeds and dogmas one professes. One can still believe in the deity of Christ and be rude, hateful, spiteful, argumentative and divisive and still be a “Christian”…for Friends…and I would suspect UU’s…to engage in rude, spiteful, hateful, argumentivie and divisive behavior and ingnore the “least of these”…is not “Christian”.

Just my :twocents: from the peanut gallery and from one who is not considered a “Christian” by most other “Christians” since I have not been sprinkled, dunked or splashed with water with the “correct” formula spoken over me…I have a very difficult time getting my head around that one…but then that’s one of the reasons I am a Friend.🙂

While I will continue to profess to be “Christian”, not only in belief and hopefully through behavior…I understand why most do not consider me “Christian”…I do not engage in the “outward forms” of rituals and rites as they make no real inward change…but embracing the “ethics” of Jesus in 'turning the other cheek"…“praying for one’s enemies”…“doing good to those who use us wrongly”…'feed the hunrgy"…“visit those in prison” and living a life of faith…is what makes one a “Christian”…how one behaves toward one’s neighbor is more important than what one believes about God.
 
This is not a Christian faith. I’d say that they are destructive towards the Christian faith.
I think they are not any more Christian than the United Nations or “Camp Quest”.

.
WOW!! I opened the site you linked to & found:

“Camp Quest is the first residential summer camp in the history of the United States for the children of Atheists, Freethinkers, Humanists, Brights, or whatever other terms might be applied to those who hold to a naturalistic, not supernatural world view.”

No mention of children of Christians, Jews or Muslims?? Looks like <<<<<<:eek:DISCRIMINATION:eek:>>>>>>> to me.
Perhaps we should notify the ACLU:onpatrol:
 
Hi Publisher,

i think any concentration with things such as the Trinity or sacraments on messageboards are done mainly because of the attacks on those things from others. If it wasn’t attacked, people wouldn’t spend their time addressing the disagreements.

There are literally hundreds of thousands of Catholics in Education, Welfare, Charity etc who try to live with the Spirit you have outlined.

We see Jesus as more than an ethical teacher though.

I think although these days many seem to attack Churches because of their doctrines and dogmas i think they are necessary in a search for truth on more than just the personal level.

The Church community down the centuries and their building of Education, Hospitals, western Science, historical analyses, politics, just war theory and universal brotherhood etc need to be based on something which is clearly articulated, rationally defensible and commonly shared. Otherwise i believe over the generations people fragment. Functional communities where they ‘do the right personal thing’ gradualy seperate until it no longer is ‘the right thing’ for the community.

I think in this secular age where much of what the Churches have built has been handed over to democratic Governments to run we can lose sight of what Churches have accomplished. These accomplishments were done with thousands of people working together with a solid shared outlook.

Clearly what they had worked.

On the one hand i think a personal search for truth is very important. An important aspect of our lives should be to live ‘the right way’ and to search for God and to be a better person.

I just fear that this attack on Church dogmas and a promotion of ‘my personal truth’ means we are less able as a community to build the things we have done together in the past and work from the same mindset. One personal truth leads someone off on one tangent to the community and this continues till we all see things differently and there is no shared community anymore.

A lot of the questions like the Trinity are not humanly able to be verified. We accept them as part of a package of the incarnation and the continuing Church and work in the Spirit you have identified. The Church continues. Personal truths come and go and very often last just one generation.

The Trinity is not something i worked out. I accept it from the community before me. Not blindly of course - it has to make some sense and have historical support. The alternate choice i have is to break with community over something i can’t prove either way anyway. Too much breaking with community in the end is self destructive IMHO.

The throwing away of dogmas and doctrines in the end creates the very thing that some would argue they create - a fragmentation, division and a lack of a functional community.

My :twocents: 🙂
 
One of the things that sets UU’s apart from other Christians is what sets Friends apart as well…we seek to follow the “religion” OF Jesus and obey his ethical and moral teachings…other Christians follow a religion ABOUT Jesus as much of their time is spent defining what they are to BELIEVE about him…almost to the exclusion of his ethical and moral teachings.

Friends and UU’s have the mindset that how one behaves…how one treats his neighbor…how one responds to agression…how one seeks to build communities of peace and mercy and justice and love and how the “least of these” are treated and cared for are more important than creeds and dogmas one professes.
Well said, Publisher. Thank you for putting so concisely what I was trying, and apparently failing, to get across.

Seeker
 
The proper definition of a Christian is someone who has been baptized using the Trinitarian formula. And no, that does not simply mean saying “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.” Even Mormons do that but they do not believe in the Trinity. Instead, they believe in three separate gods which comprise the “godhead”. So, in order to be a Christian, one must believe in the Trinity and must have been baptized in the Trinitarian way.

Unitarians do not believe in the Trinity. Therefore, they are not Christians.

Some people use the word “Christian” so broadly that they consider anyone who follows Jesus regardless of whether they consider him to be a good teacher or whatever to be a Christian. This, of course, is not a good definition.
 
The proper definition of a Christian is someone who has been baptized using the Trinitarian formula. And no, that does not simply mean saying “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.” Even Mormons do that but they do not believe in the Trinity. Instead, they believe in three separate gods which comprise the “godhead”. So, in order to be a Christian, one must believe in the Trinity and must have been baptized in the Trinitarian way.

Unitarians do not believe in the Trinity. Therefore, they are not Christians.

Some people use the word “Christian” so broadly that they consider anyone who follows Jesus regardless of whether they consider him to be a good teacher or whatever to be a Christian. This, of course, is not a good definition.
By your definition I am not a Christian…I have not undergone any ritual sprinkling, pouring nor dunking in water with a “correct” formula spoken over me…thankfully however I do not embrace your definition of “Christian”…

I believe in revelation of God through the man Jesus of Nazareth. “He is the exact representation of the invisible God…”…“The Word became flesh and dwelled among us…”

I have experienced His love and grace. In my despair and darkness He came to me and lifted me out of my darkness. I trust in His Light Within as my True Teacher and Guide. He and He alone is my High Priest…He is my Baptizer…He is the One I experience Presence with…True and Real…“I know Him experimentally”…I need no religious body to confirm or perform a rite or ritual on or for my behalf to receive His grace and mercy.

If you find such means as “dispensers of grace”, I rejoice with you. It is in our common experience of His Presence in our lives as expressed to our neighbor that we find Unitiy…it is His Spirit dwelliing within us that makes us One in Him.
 
The proper definition of a Christian is someone who has been baptized using the Trinitarian formula. And no, that does not simply mean saying “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.” Even Mormons do that but they do not believe in the Trinity. Instead, they believe in three separate gods which comprise the “godhead”. So, in order to be a Christian, one must believe in the Trinity and must have been baptized in the Trinitarian way.

Unitarians do not believe in the Trinity. Therefore, they are not Christians.

Some people use the word “Christian” so broadly that they consider anyone who follows Jesus regardless of whether they consider him to be a good teacher or whatever to be a Christian. This, of course, is not a good definition.
Holly, I admire PUblisher greatly. I honor him for his patience and his humility–and his faith. I am also aware of my own shortcomings…I guess that’s humility. One of those shortcomings is a complete and utter lack of…whatever it is that allows someone to declare that I am not a Christian, when I know darned well I am.

…and a complete and utter lack of the sort of logic that allows someone with whose beliefs I disagree on so many other levels to decide my Christian status for me. In other words, you don’t get to decide whether I am a Christian or not. YOu don’t get to decide whether Publisher is. You don’t, in other words, get to decide for anybody but yourself whether any other person is "Christian.’ You most certainly do not get to tell someone who honestly, sincerely and faithfully considers himself to be Christian that he is not.

You may, of course think as you like about any of this. What you may not do is make authoritative declarations and expect me to simply accept it and say 'well, how about that, I guess I’m NOT a Christian after all."

Because if I did, I would be lying. I try very hard not to do that. y’know?
 
I believe in revelation of God through the man Jesus of Nazareth. “He is the exact representation of the invisible God…”…“The Word became flesh and dwelled among us…”
I have a quick question for you and for all UU’s here… how do you deal with Scripture on this?

Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage. Philippians 2:5-6

This one here states, that Jesus Christ is God.

Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had with You before the world existed. John 17:5

He existed before the world began and asks the Father to glorify Him with that glory He had before the existence of the world. By the way… God doesn’t give anybody glory but Himself, as He expressed in Isaiah 48:11: “I will not give My glory to another.”

Thomas, by the way calls him this: “My Lord and my God!” and we don’t see Jesus telling him that he is wrong…
“The Word became flesh and dwelled among us…”
and the Word was God.

What does make somebody who does not believe in the deity of Christ as laid out in Scripture a Christian? I am very curious about that.
 
I have a quick question for you and for all UU’s here… how do you deal with Scripture on this?

Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage. Philippians 2:5-6

This one here states, that Jesus Christ is God.

Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had with You before the world existed. John 17:5

He existed before the world began and asks the Father to glorify Him with that glory He had before the existence of the world. By the way… God doesn’t give anybody glory but Himself, as He expressed in Isaiah 48:11: “I will not give My glory to another.”

Thomas, by the way calls him this: “My Lord and my God!” and we don’t see Jesus telling him that he is wrong…

and the Word was God.

What does make somebody who does not believe in the deity of Christ as laid out in Scripture a Christian? I am very curious about that.
First, please understand that all those who call themselves Christians probably think that they interpret “the deity of Christ as laid out in Scripture” quite accurately, and are therefore not only Christian, but correct–and if there is any disagreement between them and you regarding what the scripture means, then they, I’m quite certain, figure that they are right and you are wrong.

Which leaves…who…not Christian?

Well, If I were a fundamentalist Protestant evangalist type Christian, I would be saying that Catholics are not Christian. Most of them deny that you are, you know.

However, since I am not one of those, I certainly agree that you are Christian. You aren’t RIGHT in all things, but you are definately a Christian.

Would that you would do others with very real faith in Jesus Christ the same courtesy.
 
Thanks for the info. At least I have a little insite when I pass the bruu building on my way home.

I think…no I know…I’ll stick with the RCC. 🙂

Pax†
No one is asking you to change religions.

Cults usually involve trying to separate tan individual from his/her surrounding family and culture. UU doesn’t do that. Cults usually try to involve members in activities and rituals which take up most of their time,* and* their money. UU doesn’t do this. Cults usually have manipulative, dominating, charismatic leaders. Aside from the brilliant UU preacher, Starr King, who prevented California from joining the confederacy, UU doesn’t have this. Cults are usually much smaller than UU, and are evanescent, which UU isn’t.
 
I have a quick question for you and for all UU’s here… how do you deal with Scripture on this?

Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage. Philippians 2:5-6

This one here states, that Jesus Christ is God.

Now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with that glory I had with You before the world existed. John 17:5

He existed before the world began and asks the Father to glorify Him with that glory He had before the existence of the world. By the way… God doesn’t give anybody glory but Himself, as He expressed in Isaiah 48:11: “I will not give My glory to another.”

Thomas, by the way calls him this: “My Lord and my God!” and we don’t see Jesus telling him that he is wrong…

and the Word was God.

What does make somebody who does not believe in the deity of Christ as laid out in Scripture a Christian? I am very curious about that.
I assume you believe I do not accept God’s full disclosure in Jesus of Nazareth? Since you ask your question in such a manner as stating "I have a quick question for you and for all UU’s here… how do you deal with Scripture on this?’…then cite scriptures which I fully believe…“The Word was with God, and the Word was God.” “He is the image of the Invisible God.”

You also assume I am a Unitarian Universalist…while I may be a universalsist as I do believe that 'one day every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." “He will place ALL THINGS at His feet.”…and I believe that in Jesus of Nazareth “God was reconciling the WORLD to Himself.”…but I am a Friend…not a Unitarian Universalist…but I do not presume to speak for our Unitarian brother…it is his relationship with God and his responsibility and joy to “work out his own salvation…”

If any of us are “saved” it is and always has been through the grace and mercy of God in Christ that does so. He and He alone is the Redeemer…and Sustainer…and Lover…and Daystar that Lights our way back to the Presence from which we came.

I do not believe reciting or ascenting to doctrines and dogmas and creeds and “theological” propositions is what brings our world wholeness…it is the work of God which brings us into relationship with Him.

I do not decide if my UU brother is “saved”…but if I were to meet him face to face, I would do my utmost to “speak to that of God” that is within him and see the face of Jesus.

We have quoted from the first chapter of John…“the Quaker text” is found in the first chapter of John verse 9 “That was the true Light, which lighteth everman that comethin to the world.” How any of us responds to that true Light which “lighteth” each of us is God’s business…I am not called to decide who is “saved”…I am called to…well…to use a phrase from a favorite song of mine…“For Such a Time as This”…“to be a mirror of His mercy, a forgiven image of His grace.”…It is “that of God” within my brother…and you my sister…that I seek to “speak to” and embrace.

"What does make somebody who does not believe in the deity of Christ as laid out in Scripture a Christian? "…the grace and mery of God in Christ that works in him as this grace and mercy works in you and me.

That he may not “identify” as a “Christian” using your terms and definition does not rob him of the grace and mercy of God bestowed upon us all in Christ Jesus…the “true Light which lightens every man.”
 
All of these debates are just playing with words, really. I think we can all agree - be we Catholic or Unitarian or anything in between - that the modern denomination called the “Unitarian Universalist Association” is not a Christian body. On the other hand I would contend it yet contains many members who are Christians, even though I viciously oppose their beliefs.

The Bible never gives a definition of what a “Christian” is, and does not seem to attach any importance at all to the term. So I would much prefer to use it as a simple demographic category - a person who professes to follow Jesus.

You can say a Christian must be baptized - very well, but how do you describe one who has spent years studying the Bible and believes every article of the Faith, but lives in some isolated place and never was able to be baptized? I simply cannot in honestly use any other word than “Christian” to describe his religion.

Or you can say a “Christian” must believe the Nicene Creed - very well, but what do we call the liberal of today who denies the virgin birth? His is a horrible heresy, to be sure, but despite this heresy he prays to Jesus Christ. And again, is his religion is not Christianity, then what is it?

These restrictions are all very good for the word “Catholic” - I will agree one cannot be a Catholic who is not baptized, or who denies the Creed. But the Roman Church is an actual visible institution, and has the ability to make rules and decisions, which Christianity as a whole - even if the Catholic Church is the true church - does not. So I cannot for the life of me understand this bizarre reluctance to call people of erroneous belief or irregular sacramental situations by the word “Christian”, which any impartial outsider should see they deserve.
 
No one is asking you to change religions.

Cults usually involve trying to separate tan individual from his/her surrounding family and culture. UU doesn’t do that. Cults usually try to involve members in activities and rituals which take up most of their time,* and* their money. UU doesn’t do this. Cults usually have manipulative, dominating, charismatic leaders. Aside from the brilliant UU preacher, Starr King, who prevented California from joining the confederacy, UU doesn’t have this. Cults are usually much smaller than UU, and are evanescent, which UU isn’t.
Oh thank goodness! :extrahappy: For a second there…:rolleyes:

Unbelievable…
 
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