Are we absolutely sure that Catholicism is true?

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frobert said:
Faith is subjective confidence or trust in a person, thing, deity, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion, or view (e.g. having strong political faith) without empirical evidence. The word faith is often used as a conceptual synonym for hope, trust, belief or knowledge.

“Well, I guess there is no way to logically prove the existence of God.” Campbell answers, calmly, “If there were Father, what would be the value of faith?” …
Source: The Power of Myth [Joseph Campbell, Bill Moyers]​
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Even the wikipedia page (can you guess who would tend to be editing that page? :rolleyes:) doesn’t support this misconception. Notice how it says lack of empirical evidence, not lack of any evidence. Lack of proof doesn’t mean lack of any evidence at all.
 
CatholicSoxFan said:
Even the wikipedia page (can you guess who would tend to be editing that page? :rolleyes:) doesn’t support this misconception. Notice how it says lack of empirical evidence, not lack of any evidence. Lack of proof doesn’t mean lack of any evidence at all.
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Its a definition. Check any of the dozens of dictionaries on the web or perhaps your own if you have one.I can understand opinion being charged but its a definition.

Source merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

Merriam Webster Dictionary

faith
noun \ˈfāth\

: strong belief or trust in someone or something

: belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs

: a system of religious beliefs
plural faiths
Full Definition of FAITH
1
a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty
b (1) : fidelity to one’s promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2
a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3
: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
— on faith
: without question
See faith defined for English-language learners »
See faith defined for kids »
Examples of FAITH
Code: 
His supporters have accepted his claims with blind faith.
Our faith in the government has been badly shaken by the recent scandals.
Lending him the money to start his own business was an act of faith.
It requires a giant leap of faith for us to believe that she is telling the truth.
Nothing is more important to her than her faith in God.
She says that her faith has given her the courage to deal with this tragedy.
Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced. —Joe Klein, Time, 17 May 2004
+]more
Origin of FAITH
Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide
First Known Use: 13th century
Related to FAITH

Synonyms
devotion, piety, religion

Antonyms
atheism, godlessness

Related Words
devoutness, piousness, religiousness; adoration, reverence, veneration, worship; profession, protestation

Near Antonyms
disbelief, doubt, unbelief, unfaith; agnosticism, know-nothingism; apostasy, lapse, tergiversation

more
See Synonym Discussion at belief
Rhymes with FAITH
eighth, saithe, scathe, wraith
2faith
transitive verb \ˈfāth
Definition of FAITH
archaic
: believe, trust
Origin of FAITH
(see 1faith)
First Known Use: 15th century
Learn More About FAITH
Thesaurus: All synonyms and antonyms for “faith”
Spanish Central Translation: “faith” in Spanish
Britannica.com: Encyclopedia article about “faith”
 
oldcelt said:
Most historians acknowledge that the man Jesus existed. It is assumed that he gave the teachings, although there is quite a variance in the Gospel accounts. The sticking point comes in when the question of Divinity is discussed. As always, that point is a matter of faith and cannot be proved by any scientific method.

So, since I am a man of good will and do not acknowledge the divinity of Jesus, while greatly respecting bis teachings, your last statement is incorrect. Since this is a philosophy thread, declaring such absolutes as “overwhelming evidence” seems inappropriate. Remember, it is entirely possible that Shakespeare was multiple people and yet the writings are quite sublime.

John
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Ok, so you think that Jesus is not the Messiah?

So, why God would have sent Jesus to be crucified for us if He is not the Messiah?

If He was the Messiah, it is logical that He was God also.

We don’t need to philosoph on that. It is a faith question and the catholic faith is the most true.

God bless you! 🙂
 
Most of the time, dictionaries distinguish belief in God from belief without evidence as separate definitions. But besides, “belief without evidence” isn’t the definition that Scripture uses (Hebrews 11 and John 20 both talk about belief without seeing/experiencing something for oneself), and thus the dictionary definition is not valid grounds for atheists to claim that there isn’t any evidence for the existence of God, nor do their personal incredulities towards the arguments for existence of God somehow mean that “belief without evidence” is what we’re talking about.
 
frobert said:
Its a definition. Check any of the dozens of dictionaries on the web or perhaps your own if you have one.I can understand opinion being charged but its a definition.

Source merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

Merriam Webster Dictionary

faith
noun \ˈfāth\

: strong belief or trust in someone or something

: belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs

: a system of religious beliefs
plural faiths
Full Definition of FAITH
1
a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty
b (1) : fidelity to one’s promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2
a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3
: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
— on faith
: without question
See faith defined for English-language learners »
See faith defined for kids »
Examples of FAITH
Code: 
His supporters have accepted his claims with blind faith.
Our faith in the government has been badly shaken by the recent scandals.
Lending him the money to start his own business was an act of faith.
It requires a giant leap of faith for us to believe that she is telling the truth.
Nothing is more important to her than her faith in God.
She says that her faith has given her the courage to deal with this tragedy.
Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced. —Joe Klein, Time, 17 May 2004
+]more
Origin of FAITH
Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide
First Known Use: 13th century
Related to FAITH

Synonyms
devotion, piety, religion

Antonyms
atheism, godlessness

Related Words
devoutness, piousness, religiousness; adoration, reverence, veneration, worship; profession, protestation

Near Antonyms
disbelief, doubt, unbelief, unfaith; agnosticism, know-nothingism; apostasy, lapse, tergiversation

more
See Synonym Discussion at belief
Rhymes with FAITH
eighth, saithe, scathe, wraith
2faith
transitive verb \ˈfāth
Definition of FAITH
archaic
: believe, trust
Origin of FAITH
(see 1faith)
First Known Use: 15th century
Learn More About FAITH
Thesaurus: All synonyms and antonyms for “faith”
Spanish Central Translation: “faith” in Spanish
Britannica.com: Encyclopedia article about “faith”
Click to expand...
Faith has a very technical meaning, and it doesn’t mean without any evidence at all. There are numerous books out there that argue for the Existence of God in countless ways, which can all be seen as evidence for one of the central claims of Christianity ‘God exists’. You also have books that have argued for the Historicity of the Bible (or against), but this again implies that there isn’t ‘no evidence’.

Faith in the vulgar user, and faith in the theological use are two different concepts entirely.
 
CatholicSoxFan said:
Most of the time, dictionaries distinguish belief in God from belief without evidence as separate definitions. But besides, “belief without evidence” isn’t the definition that Scripture uses (Hebrews 11 and John 20 both talk about belief without seeing/experiencing something for oneself), and thus the dictionary definition is not valid grounds for atheists to claim that there isn’t any evidence for the existence of God, nor do their personal incredulities towards the arguments for existence of God somehow mean that “belief without evidence” is what we’re talking about.
Click to expand...
In any definition of faith I have seen there has never been the least hint of experience. If you are talking about a mystical experience of faith I am with you 100% but if you are looking for hard evidence of faith and should you find such evidence you no longer have faith you have a certified fact and your faith no longer has value.

Atheists have faith in the non-existance of God. I have several good friends who are atheists they find it quaint that I have a faith. At times we express our differing views but always with a mutual respect for each other’s view. They are good people and I have faith that the gates of heaven will be open to them, its myself who I have doubts about passing through the gates.
 
Don’t you find it strange how people will discount the writings of the New Testament when they will have no problem accepting “Caesar’s Commentaries”. Both were copied and handed down for centuries by the same monks in the same monasteries.
 
oldcelt said:
Most historians acknowledge that the man Jesus existed. It is assumed that he gave the teachings, although there is quite a variance in the Gospel accounts. The sticking point comes in when the question of Divinity is discussed. As always, that point is a matter of faith and cannot be proved by any scientific method.

So, since I am a man of good will and do not acknowledge the divinity of Jesus, while greatly respecting bis teachings, your last statement is incorrect. Since this is a philosophy thread, declaring such absolutes as “overwhelming evidence” seems inappropriate. Remember, it is entirely possible that Shakespeare was multiple people and yet the writings are quite sublime.

John
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This is a philosophy forum, so the logical question arises concerning how you, as a reasonable thinker, would reconcile that you “greatly” respect his teachings when one of his clearest and most prominent teachings was an undeniable claim to BE God.

I do understand there are ways to skirt this issue, for example, by insisting that divinity claims were concocted by his followers, but it seems pretty clear that Jesus being God is fundamental to the integrity of his teachings. In other words, his teachings seem confused and lacking clear purpose without HIS claim to divinity being true.

Old Testament prophecies point directly to HIM in terms of time, mission, message and fulfillment. There are a number of passages such as Ezekiel 34:15 that are explicit concerning God himself doing the work required.

Also, a number of passages such as Abraham’s pronouncement after his hand was stayed that God himself would provide a “lamb” for sacrifice when in fact it was a “ram” that appeared in the thicket, leaving Abraham’s prophecy unfulfilled and God still on the hook to provide the “Lamb of God.”
Considering the connection between the event as the sacrifice of Abraham’s “son” and Jesus, who claimed to be the “Son of God” and “Lamb of God” who would be sacrificed, implicit in the story is an undeniable symbolic reference to Christ as the fulfillment of God’s promise and Abraham’s prophecy.

Despite these, however, the issue of Jesus claiming to be God must be reconciled by your claim that his teachings ought to be greatly respected. Why should they be IF he was not God?
 
HelenRose said:
Don’t you find it strange how people will discount the writings of the New Testament when they will have no problem accepting “Caesar’s Commentaries”. Both were copied and handed down for centuries by the same monks in the same monasteries.
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👍 They have “a vested interest”, Helen!
 
tonyrey said:
👍 They have “a vested interest”, Helen!
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I think there might be some “Who can more radically depart from Christianity?” contest going on. Their vested interest is to win that contest.
 
Peter_Plato said:
This is a philosophy forum, so the logical question arises concerning how you, as a reasonable thinker, would reconcile that you “greatly” respect his teachings when one of his clearest and most prominent teachings was an undeniable claim to BE God.

I do understand there are ways to skirt this issue, for example, by insisting that divinity claims were concocted by his followers, but it seems pretty clear that Jesus being God is fundamental to the integrity of his teachings. In other words, his teachings seem confused and lacking clear purpose without HIS claim to divinity being true.

Old Testament prophecies point directly to HIM in terms of time, mission, message and fulfillment. There are a number of passages such as Ezekiel 34:15 that are explicit concerning God himself doing the work required.

Also, a number of passages such as Abraham’s pronouncement after his hand was stayed that God himself would provide a “lamb” for sacrifice when in fact it was a “ram” that appeared in the thicket, leaving Abraham’s prophecy unfulfilled and God still on the hook to provide the “Lamb of God.”
Considering the connection between the event as the sacrifice of Abraham’s “son” and Jesus, who claimed to be the “Son of God” and “Lamb of God” who would be sacrificed, implicit in the story is an undeniable symbolic reference to Christ as the fulfillment of God’s promise and Abraham’s prophecy.

Despite these, however, the issue of Jesus claiming to be God must be reconciled by your claim that his teachings ought to be greatly respected. Why should they be IF he was not God?
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:clapping: That is **the **question!
 
Jedus said " I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" The Old Testament prophesy and the life and teachings of Jesus are thr proof to show that the Church is true. Jesus founfed the Church on Peter, the Rock and gave power to forgive sins and also to preach the gosprl throughout the world. From that time the Church lives. Though thete have been upheavals and troubles on the way ,though straying one way or other by some authorities on the way happened, the Church lives. Jesus told us " Do not be afraid: I am with you always till the end of time." Thus with the guidance and blessings of the Holy Spirit, the Church livrs, the Church preachrs the Gospel, the Church serves the poor, the needy and the sick. Those who believe in the words of Christ, the Church is true and the only one true.
 
nishkalank said:
Jedus said " I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" The Old Testament prophesy and the life and teachings of Jesus are thr proof to show that the Church is true. Jesus founfed the Church on Peter, the Rock and gave power to forgive sins and also to preach the gosprl throughout the world. From that time the Church lives. Though thete have been upheavals and troubles on the way ,though straying one way or other by some authorities on the way happened, the Church lives. Jesus told us " Do not be afraid: I am with you always till the end of time." Thus with the guidance and blessings of the Holy Spirit, the Church livrs, the Church preachrs the Gospel, the Church serves the poor, the needy and the sick. Those who believe in the words of Christ, the Church is true and the only one true.
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AMEN! 👍
 
CatholicSoxFan said:
He then asked me, “So, you’re saying that you know for a fact that Christianity is true?” Which makes me wonder about the Church’s stance on it.
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According to CCC#50, the Church knows that is possible to be absolutely sure that Catholicism is the Truth.
If the Church does say that we know for a fact that Christianity is true (which I think it does, but if I’m wrong about that, tell me), then how do we respond to a non-Christian who asks us how we know that with absolute certainty?
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Two ways I know with absolute certainty the truth about God are:
  1. Personally resolving a few questions about the Creator of everything, in addition to comparing various religious teachings for validation purposes.
    The questions I am resolving are: In consideration of God, as the Creator of everything, what is this person’s greatest creation; why create it; and what must the Creator do in order to fulfill that creation?
    The attributes I primarily focus on when seeking validation of truth are timeliness, grace, and thoroughness.
  2. Personally resolving a couple of questions about the greatest being possible, in addition to comparing various religious teachings for validation purposes.
    The questions I am resolving are: What is the greatest being possible (I begin with considering the greatest being for myself because it is what I can control, then followed by outside beings); and how to attain the greatest being possible?
Thanks for sharing the very interesting question! I look forward to further discussion!
 
Okay, so if natural reason can know God with certainty, what arguments could we use that would arrive at the conclusion that God exists with certainty? This is very confusing to me, because every single argument that has ever been devised for anything has a way out- deny one of the premises. If any argument that could possibly be devised has a way out, then how can natural reason know God with certainty?:confused:
 
CatholicSoxFan said:
Okay, so if natural reason can know God with certainty, what arguments could we use that would arrive at the conclusion that God exists with certainty? This is very confusing to me, because every single argument that has ever been devised for anything has a way out- deny one of the premises. If any argument that could possibly be devised has a way out, then how can natural reason know God with certainty?:confused:
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There is no reason to believe reason is natural! And the highest form of knowledge is love which is supernatural. 🙂
 
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