Are we all the "offspring" of Mary? How do Protestants interpret this verse?

[Jimmy_B]

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Revelation (NAB) 12
1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was with child…(4) Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. 6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.
10 Anyone destined for captivity goes into captivity. Anyone destined to be slain by the sword shall be slain by the sword. Such is the faithful endurance of the holy ones.
17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. (Revelation
(NAB) 12)

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***Revelation (NAB) 12
17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman ***and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. (Revelation

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Are we all the “offspring” of Mary? How do Protestants interpret this verse?

 

[Lizziebel]

Well, in my Protestant days, I’d never encountered the idea that this part of Revelations is thought to refer to Mary. It does make sense, though, and the verse clarifies in what sense we might be considered her offspring.

So, anyway, in my Protestant days I’d had no idea who the woman was and just considered this verse a description of a future event rather than containing elements of the past. Not much interpretation of the verse going on. And Revelations wasn’t necessarily a book discussed in Church or Bible study…at least, not any I’ve attended.

 

[Cat]

I was evangelical Protestant all my life before converting to Catholicism in 2004.

Our interpretation of the verse was that the “woman” refers to Israel. We are spiritual descendants of Abraham, the father of the nation of Israel, by virtue of our adoption into the Kingdom of God through Jesus Christ.

So it would be correct to refer to us as “offspring of Israel.”

Since becoming Catholic, I have come to see that the passage has a layered meaning. The “woman” is Israel and also Mary and also the Church. This is one of my favorite passages of Scripture because of the layered meanings in the passage. Much of the Revelation is like this.

 

[Soutane]

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Are we all the “offspring” of Mary? How do Protestants interpret this verse?

Jimmy,it’s interesting that Christ refers to Mary consistantly in Holy Scripture as WOMAN(and not in the disrespectful redneck sense either) and not Mother,Mom,Ma,Mommy…wonder why.Somehow I just don’t think it’s a coincidence.Just as(in my opinion) it’s not coincidental there were 153 fish in the net that Christ told the Apostles to cast and how there are exactly 153 Hail Marys in a complete Rosary comprising the Joyful,Sorrowful,and Glorious Mysteries. .

 

[Lancer]

Some thoughts for your consideration.

First, CCC:

505 By his virginal conception, Jesus, the New Adam, ushers in the new birth of children adopted in the Holy Spirit through faith. “How can this be?”**165 ** Participation in the divine life arises “not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God”.166 The acceptance of this life is virginal because it is entirely the Spirit’s gift to man. The spousal character of the human vocation in relation to God 167 is fulfilled perfectly in Mary’s virginal motherhood.

165 Lk 1:34; cf. Jn 3:9.
166 Jn 1:13.
167 Cf. 2 Cor 11:2.
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…so at baptism…we are reborn into a new life in the Holy Spirit…who is Mary’s spouse…who overshadowed her for the conception of Jesus in her womb…seems like a natural result: Jesus is our elder brother…we too must be the offspring of Mary in the Holy Spirit.

Second, scripture:

Hebrews 2:10-12 (English Standard Version)
10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11 For **he **who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one source. That is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers,12 saying,“I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”

Third, an ancient 6th Century Catholic Christian Writer in Constantinople:

The Dragon Persecutes The Faithful.*

"…Therefore, they are relatives of his mother—and [the dragon] made war against them and killing them through the tyrants and powers of the earth, since they were giving witness that the one born of the Virgin was God.
Commentary on the Apocalypse
by Oecumenius

*Oecumenius…(6th Century)…called the Rhetor or the Philosopher…he wrote the earliest extant Greek commentary on Revelation.​

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So…in my opinion…our protestant brothers and sisters can jump on**…“the Lord’s bandwagon of Good News & Joy”**…knowing that they too are Mary’s offspring…or they can sit on the sidelines grumbling and mumbling like the Pharisees. I pray with all sincerity that they do the former…and not the later. Amen!

Pax Christi

 

[Lizziebel]

Some thoughts for your consideration.

First, CCC:
…so at baptism…we are reborn into a new life in the Holy Spirit…who is Mary’s spouse…who overshadowed her for the conception of Jesus in her womb…seems like a natural result: Jesus is our elder brother…we too must be the offspring of Mary in the Holy Spirit.

Second, scripture:

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Third, an ancient 6th Century Catholic Christian Writer in Constantinople:

​

So…in my opinion…our protestant brothers and sisters can jump on**…“the Lord’s bandwagon of Good News & Joy”**…knowing that they too are Mary’s offspring…or they can sit on the sidelines grumbling and mumbling like the Pharisees. I pray with all sincerity that they do the former…and not the later. Amen!

Pax Christi

That is indeed a wonderful part of all of the Lord’s Good News and Joy!

So, what do you envision there might be to grumble and mumble about, whether or not one knows that particular part of it? It wasn’t my experience when I was a Protestant, not at all.

 

[FickleFreckled]

I did an “Understanding Your Catholic Patient” inservice for a group of Protestant healthcare workers and chaplains. They unanimously protested the Woman as an image of Mary and told me she refers to the Church (Christianity, inclusive of all denominations.) The twelve stars refer to the twelve tribes of Israel, whose spiritual heritage we share.

 

[NDfan]

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Are we all the “offspring” of Mary? How do Protestants interpret this verse?

No how can we be We are the offspring of the church. There is no layered meaning to this verse as some may claim. The woman is strictly referring to the church which is the bride of Christ.

 

[ckempston]

No how can we be We are the offspring of the church. There is no layered meaning to this verse as some may claim. The woman is strictly referring to the church which is the bride of Christ.

Jesus is not the son of the church.

 

[John7]

In my Protestant days I learned that if Mary is truly sinless then the woman can’t be Mary because Mary, without sin, couldn’t have been in labor pains which was the result of the fall and its sin Gen 3:16
Revelation 12:2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

Genesis 3:16 "To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”

now I don’t know what to think:shrug:

 

[ckempston]

In my Protestant days I learned that if Mary is truly sinless then the woman can’t be Mary because Mary, without sin, couldn’t have been in labor pains which was the result of the fall and its sin Gen 3:16
Revelation 12:2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

Genesis 3:16 *To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.”

now I don’t know what to think:shrug:

Actually, labor pains were merely less, not nonexistent, before the fall. I don’t think the argument works anyway. The wages of sin is death. Jesus died. So, Jesus sinned? That line of reasoning falls apart rather quickly.

 

[ufamtobie]

No how can we be We are the offspring of the church. There is no layered meaning to this verse as some may claim. The woman is strictly referring to the church which is the bride of Christ.

Who truly made the definition of the word “family”? God did!

A family consists of Father, a Mother and offsprings here on earth. When there is no father around or mother that family has been broken apart. I am sure you have heared the word “a broken family”.

God, is our Father! Jesus, is our Brother, WHERE IS OUR MOTHER? No Mother, in heaven only means that heaven, heaven has a broken family. As we know in heaven there is nothing BROKEN.

So don’t be afraid to call Virgin Mary MOTHER, Jesus Christ did, and so do I!

The Woman is not the Church, we are the church! So how can we be our own Mother, it don’t make sense. The Woman is Virgin Mary and yes we through the Holy Spirit our her offsprings, and we through the Holy Spirit have a MOTHER and she is called MARY! The family in heaven is not a Broken one.

Does Jesus Christ in heaven call Virgin Mary Mother? …If you answered YES, then we shall also.

If you answered NO, then you are saying that Jesus Christ does not honor His Mother that only means that Jesus Christ broke a Commandment of his Father. Now this will never happen.

Ufamtobie

 

[ckempston]

Who truly made the definition of the word “family”? God did!

A family consists of Father, a Mother and offsprings here on earth. When there is no father around or mother that family has been broken apart. I am sure you have heared the word “a broken family”.

God, is our Father! Jesus, is our Brother, WHERE IS OUR MOTHER? No Mother, in heaven only means that heaven, heaven has a broken family. As we know in heaven there is nothing BROKEN.

So don’t be afraid to call Virgin Mary MOTHER, Jesus Christ did, and so do I!

The Woman is not the Church, we are the church! So how can we be our own Mother, it don’t make sense. The Woman is Virgin Mary and yes we through the Holy Spirit our her offsprings, and we through the Holy Spirit have a MOTHER and she is called MARY! The family in heaven is not a Broken one.

Does Jesus Christ in heaven call Virgin Mary Mother? …If you answered YES, then we shall also.

If you answered NO, then you are saying that Jesus Christ does not honor His Mother that only means that Jesus Christ broke a Commandment of his Father. Now this will never happen.

Ufamtobie

While I agree that there is nothing wrong with calling Mary Mother in this Biblical sense, I question your reasoning here. So, before Mary was created are you saying Heaven was broken? The Son of God existed eternally before Mary was created. This is where Catholics, in their zeal to honor Mary, totally lose me.

 

[theistgal]

Jimmy,it’s interesting that Christ refers to Mary consistantly in Holy Scripture as WOMAN(and not in the disrespectful redneck sense either) and not Mother,Mom,Ma,Mommy…wonder why.Somehow I just don’t think it’s a coincidence.

I have a little trouble with this argument (and I’ve heard it used before, so I’m not just picking on you ), because Christ also referred to Mary Magdalene and the woman caught in adultery as “Woman”. So I’m not sure it’s really the best way to convince Protestants.

 

[PJM]

Are we all the “offspring” of Mary? How do Protestants interpret this verse?

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Quote:
Revelation (NAB) 12
1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was with child…(4) Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. 6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.
10 Anyone destined for captivity goes into captivity. Anyone destined to be slain by the sword shall be slain by the sword. Such is the faithful endurance of the holy ones.
17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. (Revelation
(NAB) 12)

Revelation (NAB) 12
17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. (Revelation

Are we all the “offspring” of Mary? How do Protestants interpret this verse?

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Respectfully,

Jimmy B.

REPLY:

Is Mary our mom no she is not.

Is Mary our “Mother” Yes she is…

John 19:25 "So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!”** And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home**

Keep in mind everyting you read in the bible is TRUE, but not nesessarly factual and or litteral.

Love and prayers,

 

[ufamtobie]

While I agree that there is nothing wrong with calling Mary Mother in this Biblical sense, I question your reasoning here. So, before Mary was created are you saying Heaven was broken?

ckempston,

You should know God is God and with God all things are possible. Yes, Jesus existed eternally as the WORD of God, the word now made flesh, made flesh with Virgin Marys YES, to have Jesus. Tell, me have you ever thanked your Mother/Mary for saying YES?

No! Not at all was heaven broken before or after creation But now that creation exists Jesus on the Cross knew we all needed a mother and gave his Mother to be our mother, it was Jesus Last command while he was yet alive and this last command was not only for John but for us all "Woman behold thy son/us all, John/us all behold thy Mother. Ckempston, what did Jesus REALIZED Right After THIS last command? (John 19: 28) After that, Jesus, Christ Realizing that everything was Now Finished, said to FULFILL SCRIPTURE I am thirsty. It is without a doubt that Jesus Christ had to say (JOHN 19: 26)
before he Died. It is sad that many don’t want to ackowledge this Last command for fear of becoming Catholic.

Ckempston, you may argue this all you want but the truth is, Jesus Last command is that we belong to Virgin Mary as sons and daughters and Virgin Mary belongs to us all as a Mother. If you argue this, you don’t argue with me, but with Jesus Christ last command of Virgin Mary being are Mother and we being her son’s and daughters not only in the biblical sense, but Mother for us all, for all eternity. AMEN

The Son of God existed eternally before Mary was created. This is where Catholics, in their zeal to honor Mary, totally lose me

Ckempston, This is where Protestants, in their zeal to dis honor Virgin Mary, state the we Catholics believe that Virgin Mary Existed before God! Come On!

Truth is, you have not been given the Grace to accept this Truth, as it is, your profile states your Religon is, “REVERTING TO SOMETHING” you seem not to know where you are going, like a seed blowing in the wind, but I will tell you this, you have come to the right place here at CAF and that is to know the Truth, and it is all thanks to the Holy Spirit. Amen

I pray your seed Lands on Holy Ground,

Ufamtobie

 

[ckempston]

Ckempston, This is where Protestants, in their zeal to dis honor Virgin Mary, state the we Catholics believe that Virgin Mary Existed before God! Come On!

Truth is, you have not been given the Grace to accept this Truth, as it is, your profile states your Religon is, “REVERTING TO SOMETHING” you seem not to know where you are going, like a seed blowing in the wind, but I will tell you this, you have come to the right place here at CAF and that is to know the Truth, and it is all thanks to the Holy Spirit. Amen

I pray your seed Lands on Holy Ground,

Ufamtobie

That’s ridiculous. You stated that without a mother, heaven is an incomplete family. That is totally false; heaven did just fine without Mary for an eternity before she was born. It is not dishonor to the Virgin Mary to make a true statement about her.

 

[ufamtobie]

That’s ridiculous. You stated that without a mother, heaven is an incomplete family. That is totally false; heaven did just fine without Mary for an eternity before she was born. It is not dishonor to the Virgin Mary to make a true statement about her.

Ckempston/Reverting to something,

Now Reverting to Something, now this is ridiculous

No! I never stated that heaven has an incomplete family, now here is what I stated: “God, is our Father! Jesus, is our Brother, WHERE IS OUR MOTHER? No Mother, in heaven only means that heaven, heaven has a broken family. **As we know in heaven there is nothing BROKEN.”/**B] Please scroll and find the original statement and see it for yourself.

Now, as you have read, what does the last sentence that I stated that is underlined say above? I rest my case. :thumbsup:So quit puting words that are not true. next time read carfully don’t be in haste to dis honor Virgin Mary, it will be only to your down fall.

Yes, as you say heaven was doing fine before Virgin Mary Existed But I will raise that bar and say heaven was doing GREAT before Virgin Mary Existed… But I tell you this, How much more beautiful it is in heaven now that their is a motherly love that we humans are acustomed to. this why Jesus wants us to have a mother in heaven. Amen

Ckempston, what you don’t understand or I should say, you have not been given the Grace to understand, What Jesus said on the Cross, remember his last command to us.
(John 19:26)…“WOMAN, THERE IS YOUR SON.” IN TURN HE SAID TO THE DISCIPLE, “THERE IS YOUR MOTHER.” FROM THAT HOUR ONWARD, THE DISCIPLE TOOK HER INTO HIS CARE. WOW! That HOUR Onward, not a week later, not a day later, but from that hour onward! Ckempston, this should indeed tell you SOMETHING, SOMETHING TO REVERT TOO. DOING SO, THIS IS NOT RIDICULOUS, BUT RELIGEOUS.

That hour onward The Catholic Church took Virgin Mary into their CARE! From that hour onward we call Virgin Mary our Mother, OBEYING Jesus Christ last command while he was yet alive hanging from the Cross, Ckempston, if you so choose not to Obey Jesus Last command and take Virgin Mary as your Mother, then that is your fault, yours and yours alone!.

Ckempston, don’t be affraid to call Virgin Mary your Mother, Jesus did and continues to do so in heaven. How do I know that Jesus Calls Virgin Mary Mother in heaven? The answer is! For the simple fact that Jesus Can not break the Commandment of “thou shall Honor your Father and thy Mother.” I believe that this Commandment still stands in Heaven, don’t you?

Now you have not answered me the question that I ask from you before,here it is again: Ckempston, Have you Called Virgin Mary Blessed today? Have you thanked her for saying YES, to have our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? Answer me these 2 question first, before deciding to write me about anything else.

May the Holy Family in Heaven Bless you,

Ufamtobie

 

[ckempston]

Ckempston/Reverting to something,

Now Reverting to Something, now this is ridiculous

No! I never stated that heaven has an incomplete family, now here is what I stated: “God, is our Father! Jesus, is our Brother, WHERE IS OUR MOTHER? No Mother, in heaven only means that heaven, heaven has a broken family. **As we know in heaven there is nothing BROKEN.”/**B] Please scroll and find the original statement and see it for yourself.

Oh, please. So, “broken family” is somehow better or different from incomplete family? Your “explanation” doesn’t fix the stated problem. The Father and Son have existed for eternity with no mother involved. The “Heavenly Family” wouldn’t be broken without Mary.

Now, as you have read, what does the last sentence that I stated that is underlined say above? I rest my case. :thumbsup:So quit puting words that are not true. next time read carfully don’t be in haste to dis honor Virgin Mary, it will be only to your down fall.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by ckempston
That’s ridiculous. You stated that without a mother, heaven is an incomplete family. That is totally false; heaven did just fine without Mary for an eternity before she was born. It is not dishonor to the Virgin Mary to make a true statement about her.

**
Friend, a point of clairification.**

Heaven may have existed before Mary and the birth, death and Ressurection of Jesus,

BUT NOBODY was there except God.

Access to Heaven did not become a reality until the Ressurection:thumbsup:

Love and prayer,