Are we all the "offspring" of Mary? How do Protestants interpret this verse?

[ckempston]

**
Friend, a point of clairification.**

Heaven may have existed before Mary and the birth, death and Ressurection of Jesus,

BUT NOBODY was there except God.

Access to Heaven did not become a reality until the Ressurection:thumbsup:

Love and prayer,

Really? How do you explain the “Heavenly Host”? Last time I checked a “Host” is a whole lot of individuals, not just God. I realize there were no “souls” in heaven until Jesus led them there, but there was a complete “family” in Heaven for all of eternity - the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

 

[PJM]

=ckempston;5027124]Really? How do you explain the “Heavenly Host”? Last time I checked a “Host” is a whole lot of individuals, not just God. I realize there were no “souls” in heaven until Jesus led them there, but there was a complete “family” in Heaven for all of eternity - the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Ok, we agree on “the family?”

The “Heavenly Host” however refers to The Angels (only the good ones), and not to redeemed humanity, in the sense you are applying the term.

Still it shows your thinking, and that my friend is a GREAT start!

Good post!:tiphat::clapping:

 

[ufamtobie]

Oh, please. So, “broken family” is somehow better or different from incomplete family? Your “explanation” doesn’t fix the stated problem. The Father and Son have existed for eternity with no mother involved. The “Heavenly Family” wouldn’t be broken without Mary.

Ckempston, Everyone in this life does not want a broken family. Everyone wants a loving family, don’t you? And no, I am not saying that you did hav a broken family, ok. Here in this life we are Accustomed to have that through the Grace of God, We are acustomed to have a Mother and Father, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT GOD WILL NOT TAKE FROM US IN THIS LIFE OR IN THE NEXT! Ckempston, what you seem to forget is that All Thing are possible for God! Jesus was the Word of God made flesh by the YES of Virgin Mary. Ckempston, tell me why didn’t Jesus, just come down from heaven without a Mother? The Answer is he wanted to be like us in every way except SIN! Jesus Christ Knew the Importance of the meaning of Mother and Father, to us human beings.

Nobody’s dishonoring anybody. Did Jesus himself dishonor Mary when he said that “his mother and brothers and sisters” are those who do God’s will? Jesus dismissed the earthly relationship as unimportant. I call Mary blessed. Period. End of story.

Ckempston, YES, THERE IS NO ONE GOOD BUT GOD ALONE! God is good through his Divinity, we are good ONLY THROUGH HIS GRACE FOR NO ONE CAN DO GOOD BUT GOD THAT IS IN HIM… REMEBER THAT!

By the way you have you thanked Virgin Mary for saying YES!?

Ufamtobie

 

[PJM]

=ufamtobie;5031194]Ckempston, YES, THERE IS NO ONE GOOD BUT GOD ALONE! God is good through his Divinity, we are good ONLY THROUGH HIS GRACE FOR NO ONE CAN DO GOOD BUT GOD THAT IS IN HIM… REMEBER THAT!

By the way you have you thanked Virgin Mary for saying YES!?

Ufamtobie

Dear friends in Christ,

Here is a thought for all of us.

FACT: God is, has been and always will be COMPLETELY PERFECT (and everything good… perfectly.) Agreed?

FACT: Nothing any human person can do can or will in anyway make God more or less Perfect, more or less God. This includes our BVM!

FACT; The issue has nothing to do with “family” as we understand “family.” It has to do with fullfilling God’s Perfect Will, Perfectly, which is exactly what Mother Mary did and does.

Love and prayers,

 

[ckempston]

Ok, we agree on “the family?”

The “Heavenly Host” however refers to The Angels (only the good ones), and not to redeemed humanity, in the sense you are applying the term.

Still it shows your thinking, and that my friend is a GREAT start!

Good post!:tiphat::clapping:

Ok, how could you possibly think you scored a point there? You made an obvious false claim: that the only one in heaven was God. I Biblically refuted that, and you act like I’ve suddenly taken another step toward your level of enlightenment.

Heaven was complete, perfect, and in no need of anything before Mary got there. Her addition adds nothing, qualitatively, to heaven, and her absence would take nothing away.

 

[ckempston]

Ckempston, YES, THERE IS NO ONE GOOD BUT GOD ALONE! God is good through his Divinity, we are good ONLY THROUGH HIS GRACE FOR NO ONE CAN DO GOOD BUT GOD THAT IS IN HIM… REMEBER THAT!

By the way you have you thanked Virgin Mary for saying YES!?

Ufamtobie

As I already pointed out, Mary can’t hear me.

 

[PJM]

=ckempston;5031339]Ok, how could you possibly think you scored a point there? You made an obvious false claim: that the only one in heaven was God. I Biblically refuted that, and you act like I’ve suddenly taken another step toward your level of enlightenment.

Heaven was complete, perfect, and in no need of anything before Mary got there. Her addition adds nothing, qualitatively, to heaven, and her absence would take nothing away.

Slow down there brother,

Your trying too hard.

My friend, are you sure you mean me? I never said “God was the only one in heaven.” And friend, with over 1,000 post, not once have I attempted “to score points.” This is not a contest, it’s about sharing our faith fully and truthfully.

It isn’t even personal.

We agree as I stated in my last post to you that indeed Mary did nothing to make heaven, Jesus or God “more perfect.” God and heaver were, are and always will be perfect.

Your wrong about “not taking anything away” if Mary were not in heaven. We would lose the most Perfect Intecessor ever available to mankind. But I do know what you were trying to say. And on the general point you were trying to make, you were correct.

Again, slow down, ditch the righteous anger? and think through what you are trying to share.

Were you went astray, was in assuming that “the heavenly host” were humanity that was in heaven. And as I explained, that point is incorrect, as “heavenly host” speakes only and exclusively of God’s angels. Not saved humanity.

Luke 2: **13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, 14 “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men with whom he is pleased!” **

Love and prayers,

 

[ckempston]

Slow down there brother,

Your trying too hard.

My friend, are you sure you mean me? I never said “God was the only one in heaven.” And friend, with over 1,000 post, not once have I attempted “to score points.” This is not a contest, it’s about sharing our faith fully and truthfully.

It isn’t even personal.

We agree as I stated in my last post to you that indeed Mary did nothing to make heaven, Jesus or God “more perfect.” God and heaver were, are and always will be perfect.

Your wrong about “not taking anything away” if Mary were not in heaven. We would lose the most Perfect Intecessor ever available to mankind. But I do know what you were trying to say. And on the general point you were trying to make, you were correct.

Again, slow down, ditch the righteous anger? and think through what you are trying to share.

Were you went astray, was in assuming that “the heavenly host” were humanity that was in heaven. And as I explained, that point is incorrect, as “heavenly host” speakes only and exclusively of God’s angels. Not saved humanity.

Luke 2: 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, 14 “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men with whom he is pleased!”

Love and prayers,

I never said it included humanity. YOU said God alone was in heaven. True or False.

 

[PJM]

=ckempston;5032639]I never said it included humanity. YOU said God alone was in heaven. True or False.

Friend,

Are you sure you don’t have me mixed up with oniter poster?

I’m human and error is possible, but that has never been a position of mine.

Have a great life, love and prayers, Pat

 

[ckempston]

Friend,

Are you sure you don’t have me mixed up with oniter poster?

I’m human and error is possible, but that has never been a position of mine.

Have a great life, love and prayers, Pat

Post # 20:

Heaven may have existed before Mary and the birth, death and Ressurection of Jesus,

BUT NOBODY was there except God

 

[lyrikal]

Mary is the ark of the new covenant:

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant:
The ark traveled to the house of Obed-edom in the hill country of Judea (2 Sam. 6:1–11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant:
Mary traveled to the house of Elizabeth and Zechariah in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the ark (2 Sam. 6:14).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
John the Baptist—of priestly lineage—leapt in his mother’s womb at the approach of Mary (Luke 1:41).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
David asks, **“How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” **(2 Sam. 6:9).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Elizabeth asks, “Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
David shouts in the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:15).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Elizabeth “exclaimed with a loud cry” in the presence of the Mary (Luke 1:42).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
The ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months (2 Sam. 6:11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:56).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
The word blessed is used three times; surely the house was blessed by God (Luke 1:39–45).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9–11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21–22).

(Top part was taken from Catholic.com catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5sb1.asp)

Now, what was inside the old ark?
Manna (bread that came down from heaven that saved the Jews temporarily) - Deut 10:3-5),
Ten Commandments (Word of God) - Heb 9:4,
and Rod of Iron (Priest) - Heb 9:4.

What was inside Mary (the new ark) for 9 months?:
Bread of life that came down from Heaven which saves us eternally, Jesus (John 6:41),
Word of God, Jesus (John 1:1),
and the One and ONLY High Priest, Jesus, who would rule with a Rod of Iron (Rev. 12:5).

Now here is the key. When John was writing the book of Rev, he did not have chapter divisions and verse numbers. He just simply wrote…

What do we see in the last verse of Chapter 11?

Rev 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. (KJV)

What follow immediately after that verse?

Rev 12: And a great portent appeared in heaven, **a woman **clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Think about what happened in Genesis 3. We had 3 main characters. Adam, Eve, and the Serpent (Devil).

In Rev 12, we also have 3 main characters. Jesus, Woman, and the dragon ( Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world–he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him).

Many would agree that the child in Rev 12 is Jesus and the devil is the serpent of old (Rev 12:9). But they stop there and say the woman is either Israel or the church. It is obviously Mary, Israel AND the Church. Don’t let your pride get in the way of the truth.

Jesus calls Mary “Woman” every single time in scripture. A lot of people make an argument about Jesus calling Mary Mag “woman” and also the woman caught in adultery. But, can they show proof (shown above) that those two woman have anything to do with the ark? With Mary, it is obvious that scripture portrays her as the Ark of the New Covenant. Besides, Mary was Jesus’ Mother. For Him to call her Woman the same way he called Mary Mag and the woman caught in adultery woman would mean that he is breaking the commandment of honor mother and father. This is not possible. Christ calls Mary “Woman” for theological reasons (Gen 3:15-16).

Anyone who objects to the fact that Rev 12 is about Mary needs to explain how a coincidence like this can occur in scripture? With all the evidence shown above about how Mary is the New Ark and the last verse of chapter 11 stating that John saw the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven and immediately in chapter 12, he talks about a Woman bearing a child messiah. Please don’t object something just because the Catholic Church teaches it.

Think about how much the Old Ark was venerated by the Jews. How much more are we to honor the New Ark who bore God in her womb?

Grace and peace.

 

[lyrikal]

Mary is the ark of the new covenant:

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant:
The ark traveled to the house of Obed-edom in the hill country of Judea (2 Sam. 6:1–11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant:
Mary traveled to the house of Elizabeth and Zechariah in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the ark (2 Sam. 6:14).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
John the Baptist—of priestly lineage—leapt in his mother’s womb at the approach of Mary (Luke 1:41).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
David asks, **“How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” **(2 Sam. 6:9).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Elizabeth asks, “Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
David shouts in the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:15).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Elizabeth “exclaimed with a loud cry” in the presence of the Mary (Luke 1:42).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
The ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months (2 Sam. 6:11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:56).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
The word blessed is used three times; surely the house was blessed by God (Luke 1:39–45).

Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9–11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21–22).

(Top part was taken from Catholic.com catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5sb1.asp)

Now, what was inside the old ark?
Manna (bread that came down from heaven that saved the Jews temporarily) - Deut 10:3-5),
Ten Commandments (Word of God) - Heb 9:4,
and Rod of Iron (Priest) - Heb 9:4.

What was inside Mary (the new ark) for 9 months?:
Bread of life that came down from Heaven which saves us eternally, Jesus (John 6:41),
Word of God, Jesus (John 1:1),
and the One and ONLY High Priest, Jesus, who would rule with a Rod of Iron (Rev. 12:5).

Now here is the key. When John was writing the book of Rev, he did not have chapter divisions and verse numbers. He just simply wrote…

What do we see in the last verse of Chapter 11?

Rev 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail. (KJV)

What follow immediately after that verse?

Rev 12: And a great portent appeared in heaven, **a woman **clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;

Think about what happened in Genesis 3. We had 3 main characters. Adam, Eve, and the Serpent (Devil).

In Rev 12, we also have 3 main characters. Jesus, Woman, and the dragon ( Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world–he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him).

Many would agree that the child in Rev 12 is Jesus and the devil is the serpent of old (Rev 12:9). But they stop there and say the woman is either Israel or the church. It is obviously Mary, Israel AND the Church. Don’t let your pride get in the way of the truth.

Jesus calls Mary “Woman” every single time in scripture. A lot of people make an argument about Jesus calling Mary Mag “woman” and also the woman caught in adultery. But, can they show proof (shown above) that those two woman have anything to do with the ark? With Mary, it is obvious that scripture portrays her as the Ark of the New Covenant. Besides, Mary was Jesus’ Mother. For Him to call her Woman the same way he called Mary Mag and the woman caught in adultery woman would mean that he is breaking the commandment of honor mother and father. This is not possible. Christ calls Mary “Woman” for theological reasons (Gen 3:15-16).

Anyone who objects to the fact that Rev 12 is about Mary needs to explain how a coincidence like this can occur in scripture? With all the evidence shown above about how Mary is the New Ark and the last verse of chapter 11 stating that John saw the Ark of the Covenant in Heaven and immediately in chapter 12, he talks about a Woman bearing a child messiah. Please don’t object something just because the Catholic Church teaches it.

Think about how much the Old Ark was venerated by the Jews. How much more are we to honor the New Ark who bore God in her womb?

Grace and peace.

I have never heard a Protestant refute this. Any takers? Everytime I tell this to my Protestant friends, they always tell me “I’ll get back with you on that one” which is no problem with me but they never get back to me on it.

 

[ckempston]

I have never heard a Protestant refute this. Any takers? Everytime I tell this to my Protestant friends, they always tell me “I’ll get back with you on that one” which is no problem with me but they never get back to me on it.

That’s really not surprising. I’m certainly not going to challeng your parallels. They seem reasonable, and pretty obvious from the scriptures you provided. What I will question is your conclusion that we should “venerate” Mary because the Jews “venerated” the Ark. I find that the Jews venerated the Ark in the way you’re suggesting questionable. Most of the Jews never even saw the Ark, and for day-to-day life, it had no practical use. One thing I will point out is that while the Ark did indeed contain all the things you listed, Mary no longer contains anything having to do with the Ark. She was certainly the god-bearer, but she doesn’t “bear God” any longer.

 

[lyrikal]

That’s really not surprising. I’m certainly not going to challeng your parallels. They seem reasonable, and pretty obvious from the scriptures you provided. What I will question is your conclusion that we should “venerate” Mary because the Jews “venerated” the Ark. I find that the Jews venerated the Ark in the way you’re suggesting questionable. Most of the Jews never even saw the Ark, and for day-to-day life, it had no practical use. One thing I will point out is that while the Ark did indeed contain all the things you listed, Mary no longer contains anything having to do with the Ark. She was certainly the god-bearer, but she doesn’t “bear God” any longer.

But here’s the point. Can you now deny that the Woman in Rev 12 is Mary? If you admit that it is Mary, then that changes everything. She was protected from falling so that can indirectly imply that she was sinless (Rev 12:13-14). She had a crown of 12 stars (12 tribes of Israel) so that can represent her queenship over the new Israel which started with the 12 Apostles. In Rev 12:1, she seems to have a body, so that can imply that she was raised bodily. It also talks about her offspring (the ones that keep the Word of God) so that can imply that she is still our Mother (Rev 12:17).

Don’t you remember how scripture portrays the Ark to be spotless? I remember reading something about someone touching the Ark and dieing. How much more spotless (sinless) would the Mother of God be?

This is not something the Catholic Church made up in modern days. Here are a couple of Early Church Fathers that taught this:

Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? **To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all **O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides” (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).

Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213–c. 270) wrote: “Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ **For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary” (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary).

 

[ufamtobie]

As I already pointed out, Mary can’t hear me.

Ckempston, Again, have you read (Luke: 16: 19-31) CAUSE IT PROVES YOU WRONG! If Abraham can hear the Prayer of the Rich Man in hell, Virgin Mary can hear YOU! Let me tell you something Virgin Mary is Greater than Abraham, for Abraham did not give Jesus Christ his Flesh and blood, Virgin Mary did!

Have you not read, have you not heard, have you not been told from the begining, that all of Heavens saints Rejoice with one repented sinner? Again, this proves you wrong. This should tell you that the saints DO LISTEN. AMEN

You believe that the saints can’t hear us? Then how is it that they know of a person on earth who repents. I tell you you are WRONG! They do know and they do listen.

Ckempston, Yes, YES, Virgin Mary has heard YOU! Most Importantly Jesus Christ has heard YOU! He has heard and seen, how you have treated his Mother Mary! With no respect.

You have told me before that you have only called Virgin Mary Blessed only one time, in your life, and that was enough, you said. Listen to this, the Devil himself, has never never called Virgin Mary Blessed and you Ckempston, are only one ahead of the devil, in calling Virgin Mary BLESSED, and this should tell you something, and that is, how near are your thoughts, to the devils thoughts, about calling Virgin Mary BLessed, that is scary.

Ckempston, there is not a day that goes by that I don’t call Virgin Mary Blessed. Virgin Mary filled with the Holy Spirit said: “ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME BLESSED” I guess you are not part of those GENERATIONS, AGAIN THIS SHOULD SCARE YOU AS WELL.

Ufamtobie

 

[SyCarl]

But here’s the point. Can you now deny that the Woman in Rev 12 is Mary? If you admit that it is Mary, then that changes everything. She was protected from falling so that can indirectly imply that she was sinless (Rev 12:13-14). She had a crown of 12 stars (12 tribes of Israel) so that can represent her queenship over the new Israel which started with the 12 Apostles. In Rev 12:1, she seems to have a body, so that can imply that she was raised bodily. It also talks about her offspring (the ones that keep the Word of God) so that can imply that she is still our Mother (Rev 12:17).

Don’t you remember how scripture portrays the Ark to be spotless? I remember reading something about someone touching the Ark and dieing. How much more spotless (sinless) would the Mother of God be?

There are things in Revelation 12 that would not seem to apply to Mary being the woman.

The woman was in labor and in pain giving birth. If it is Mary, and if she was free from original sin, why would she be suffering labor pains?

Also later in the chapter we read:

And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she *was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.
(Revelation 12:13-16 NASB)

If it is true that Mary was assumed into Heaven, and she may very well have been, was she later put back on earth so the dragon could persecute her when he had been thrown to earth?

The imagery in this chapter seems to point to the woman being Israel, who throughout the Old Testament is referred to as a virgin. The actual picture is reminiscent of Joseph’s dream.

Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, “Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?”
(Genesis 37:9-10 NASB)

The sun would represent Jacob, the moon Rachael, and the 12 stars the 12 patriarchs of the tribes of Israel.

The language also points to a statement that God made in Exodus.

When they set out from Rephidim, they came to the wilderness of Sinai and camped in the wilderness; and there Israel camped in front of the mountain. Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself.
(Exodus 19:2-4 NASB)

God describes Israel’s trip to the wilderness as being borne on eagles’ wings just as Revelation does of the woman.

Here are a couple of Early Church Fathers that taught this:

Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? **To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all **O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides” (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).

Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213–c. 270) wrote: “Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ **For the Holy Virgin *is ***in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary” (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary).

The Church Fathers were not consistent on Mary. Historian Phillip Schaff noted about Augustine that:

He contributed to promote, at least in his later writings, the Catholic faith of miracles, and the worship of Mary; though he exempts the Virgin only from actual sin, not from original, and, with all his reverence for her, never calls her “mother of God.”

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf101.iv.5.html?highlight=mother%20of%20god#highlight

In fact Augustine says the following:

He was in an extraordinary manner begotten of the Father without a mother, born of a mother without a father; without a mother He was God, without a father He was man; without a mother before all time, without a father in the end of times…9. Why, then, said the Son to the mother, “Woman, what have I to do with you? mine hour is not yet come?” Our Lord Jesus Christ was both God and man. According as He was God, He had not a mother; according as He was man, He had. She was the mother, then, of His flesh, of His humanity, of the weakness which for our sakes He took upon Him.

(Tractates on John, Number 8, Paragraphs 8-9
newadvent.org/fathers/1701008.htm

John Chrysostom, another doctor of the church felt Mary was guilty of sin.

And this He said, not as being ashamed of His mother, nor denying her that bare Him; for if He had been ashamed of her, He would not have passed through that womb; but as declaring that she has no advantage from this, unless she do all that is required to be done. For in fact that which she had essayed to do, was of superfluous vanity; in that she wanted to show the people that she has power and authority over her Son, imagining not as yet anything great concerning Him; whence also her unseasonable approach. See at all events both her self confidence and theirs. Since when they ought to have gone in, and listened with the multitude; or if they were not so minded, to have waited for His bringing His discourse to an end, and then to have come near; they call Him out, and do this before all, evincing a superfluous vanity, and wishing to make it appear, that with much authority they enjoin Him.

(Homilies on Matthew, Homily 44, 12:46-49)
newadvent.org/fathers/200144.htm

 

[lyrikal]

There are things in Revelation 12 that would not seem to apply to Mary being the woman.

The woman was in labor and in pain giving birth. If it is Mary, and if she was free from original sin, why would she be suffering labor pains?

Also later in the chapter we read:

If it is true that Mary was assumed into Heaven, and she may very well have been, was she later put back on earth so the dragon could persecute her when he had been thrown to earth?

The imagery in this chapter seems to point to the woman being Israel, who throughout the Old Testament is referred to as a virgin. The actual picture is reminiscent of Joseph’s dream.

The sun would represent Jacob, the moon Rachael, and the 12 stars the 12 patriarchs of the tribes of Israel.

The language also points to a statement that God made in Exodus.

God describes Israel’s trip to the wilderness as being borne on eagles’ wings just as Revelation does of the woman.

The Church Fathers were not consistent on Mary. Historian Phillip Schaff noted about Augustine that:

ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf101.iv.5.html?highlight=mother%20of%20god#highlight

In fact Augustine says the following:

(Tractates on John, Number 8, Paragraphs 8-9
newadvent.org/fathers/1701008.htm

John Chrysostom, another doctor of the church felt Mary was guilty of sin.

(Homilies on Matthew, Homily 44, 12:46-49)
newadvent.org/fathers/200144.htm

I am not going to disagree with anything you said here. I have already stated that I believe Rev 12 is about Mary, Israel, AND the Church. You stated that there are things in Rev 12 that does not apply to Mary. Well, there are things in Rev 12 that DO apply directly to Mary. The part where the woman bore the messiah.

Also, you did not address the argument about Mary being the Ark of the New Covenant. If she is the Ark of the New Covenant, then the last verse of Rev 11 where John sees the Ark of the Covenant and Rev 12 (where a woman is portrayed) go hand and hand. Can you show me scripture that implies that Israel is the new or even the old ark of the covenant? Israel did not give birth to the Messiah, Mary did.

Whoever has ears…

 

[SyCarl]

I am not going to disagree with anything you said here. I have already stated that I believe Rev 12 is about Mary, Israel, AND the Church. You stated that there are things in Rev 12 that does not apply to Mary. Well, there are things in Rev 12 that DO apply directly to Mary. The part where the woman bore the messiah.

Also, you did not address the argument about Mary being the Ark of the New Covenant. If she is the Ark of the New Covenant, then the last verse of Rev 11 where John sees the Ark of the Covenant and Rev 12 (where a woman is portrayed) go hand and hand. Can you show me scripture that implies that Israel is the new or even the old ark of the covenant? Israel did not give birth to the Messiah, Mary did.

Whoever has ears…

We are told that there will not be any ark of the covenant.

“It shall be in those days when you are multiplied and increased in the land,” declares the LORD, "they will no longer say, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ And it will not come to mind, nor will they remember it, nor will they miss it, nor will it be made again.
(Jeremiah 3:16 NASB)

 

[Singinbeauty]

Ckempston, Again, have you read (Luke: 16: 19-31) CAUSE IT PROVES YOU WRONG! If Abraham can hear the Prayer of the Rich Man in hell, Virgin Mary can hear YOU! Let me tell you something Virgin Mary is Greater than Abraham, for Abraham did not give Jesus Christ his Flesh and blood, Virgin Mary did!

Ok, this is something I have heard before but it is confusing. The story you quote is Abraham in Heaven and the rich man in hell… Correct? Not Abraham here on earth in our time demension. It is not the same as someone here on earth praying to Mary. We are separated by far more than a great chasm (reference the story) as Heaven and Hell are said to be in that story.

The story doesn’t prove communication from earth to Heaven, it only proves communication from Heaven to Hell.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25"But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

Now, if you can show me somewhere - definitive proof where someone here on earth (besides Christ because we can all agree He has abilities that we can only dream of) called on someone, other than God, in Heaven and they answered. Or even show me where those on earth in the Bible prayed to Mary or even went to her for intercession with her Son. The wedding in Cana doesn’t count, they did not go to Mary for her to tell her Son (if they did show me where it says that) all it says is that Mary noticed they were out of wine and she told Him, then she told the servants who would have been working on where they would get more wine to do whatever Christ told them.

The evidence of people going straight to Christ is insurmountable whereas the evidence to go to His Mother or anyone else - not so much…

So, where in the Bible did any of the disciples pray to Mary or anyone who had passed on to Heaven?

This has always been a point of confusion for me so I look forward to your answer…

 

[ufamtobie]

Ok, this is something I have heard before but it is confusing. The story you quote is Abraham in Heaven and the rich man in hell… Correct? Not Abraham here on earth in our time demension. It is not the same as someone here on earth praying to Mary. We are separated by far more than a great chasm (reference the story) as Heaven and Hell are said to be in that story.

The story doesn’t prove communication from earth to Heaven, it only proves communication from Heaven to Hell.

So, where in the Bible did any of the disciples pray to Mary or anyone who had passed on to Heaven?

Singingbeauty, Virgin Mary takes you straight to Jesus Christ. How so? When the Apostles scattered during the Agony in the Garden they went running to hide. But what about John, he was the only Apostle who came to Virgin Mary being scared and all but was present at the Cruxcifiction why? I will tell you why, It was Virgin Mary who brought John, being scared and all to see our Lord on the cross and as John was under her Motherly protection no one laid a hand on him. Imagine if all the Apostles found Virgin Mary as they ran Virgin Mary would of brought them to the foot of the cross as well./SIZE]

This has always been a point of confusion for me so I look forward to your answer…

Singingbeauty, Can you pray for me? Yes, You can and I can pray for you. But what if you have passed on and now are in heaven, does your prayers stop for me? No!

UFAMTOBIE

[/QUOTE]