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TruthisBeauty7
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We are the offspring of ida
Are we all the "offspring" of Mary? How do Protestants interpret this verse?
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Jimmy_B
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Hello TruthisBeauty7,
This must be the comedy relief post. :extrahappy:…Lol…the “missing link”…sure it is
.Are you referring to this “Ida” (below). She doesn’t look anything like me…:yukonjoe:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef01156fa72a69970c-pi
More here
Are you in the Creationist camp, the Darwinist camp… or a little of both.
Call me crazy… but I don’t think that this is what God looks like…and I don’t believe this creature looks anything like Adam or Eve either. :doh2:
Thank you for your post.
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Jimmy_B
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(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
This Bible verse talks about God creating “man”, it doesn’t say anything about God creating a lizard that became “man”; a creature that cannot talk and does not have a human intellect, conscience or soul.
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Roy5
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MARY SAYING ‘YES’ TO GOD
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I love and respect Mary, of course, but so often I hear he acclaimed because she said 'yes' to God. I guess I never understood this. What else was she going to say? Obviously God chose her and sent an angel to inform her of her mission. Was she going to say no?
Years ago I heard a little verse that went like this. It comes to mind when I read posts that treat 'heretics' as rebels, ignorant or whatever and suggest that the Church provides the only gateway to heaven.
God published a tale of a girl and a ghost, of devils in pigs and his son on a cross,
Then gave it to man to believe it or roast. Yea, his mercy endureth forever!
We need to recognize that it isn't a slam dunk that people will believe in what Christians believe. I recall flying from India to the USA. When the woman beside me discovered that I am an active Christian she said: "I could never follow a religion whose symbol was an instrument of torture." I tried to explain to her the deeper meaning, but she didn't buy it. A brilliant, well-read woman, a college professor raised in the church who was working hard for justice and peace. Frankly, I believe she may enter paradise long before many self-proclaimed Christians who vigorously oppose all abortion but are ready to nuke 'enemies' overseas and have deep prejudices against those of other races or against other faiths.
God bless the whole world - no exceptions.
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Good_Fella
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And who is to decide with authority where to draw the limits, private individuals? There are countless denominations in Protestantism because of individual religious leaders who couldn’t agree with each other where true faith has reached the limits. And so they went separate ways.
Many people came to believe in Jesus during his ministry because of the miracles he performed, although they appear to have regarded him as simply a true prophet from God. Likewise many people have come to believe in the Marian apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima because of the many miracles surrounding these events. I gather you are acquainted with these events. If not, I suggest you explore them. Satan cannot be divided against himself in order to make a successful attempt at capturing poor souls. He would certainly never exhort us to do penance and stop offending God. The idea alone would nauseate him. The point is that Mary’s messages convey the word of God to humankind, through the Church, in an evangelical capacity, signs and wonders notwithstanding. Her appearances serve to help us better understand and live our faith in a particular historical period. Our Lord promised that he would not leave us as orphans. The Holy Spirit works through Mary, his most chaste spouse, as a channel of divine grace, for she is our heavenly Mother, one who cares for human souls - especially the souls of the faithful who are the brothers and sisters of her divine Son: our Lord Jesus Christ, the firstfruits of many brethren. I think of our Lady’s appearances as a means by which God reminds the world that he actually exists. And they serve as a sign of hope that one day we, too, will rise from the dead to be united with our Lord and Blessed Mother.
Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Catechism of the Catholic Church, 67
“He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.”
John 16, 14-15
If you refuse to believe that Christ gave his one universal Church a share in his infallibilty, then you cannot be honestly sure whether the New Testament texts were actually written by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. It was the Church, not the Bible, that determined the canon of Scripture. Scripture is infallible insofar the Tradition of the Church is infallible. The Church judged as apochryphal those books which were theologically inconsistent with and contradictory to traditional orthodox beliefs. So I challenge you to cite Scripture to show us how Mary could absolutely never be the Mother of the Church in accordance with orthodox belief. It’s unreasonable to question or deny something as true just because it isn’t literally or explicitly revealed. Your approach to fully understand the word of God has drawn the limits of your faith.
“Besides the canonical Scriptures, nothing shall be read in the church under the title of divine writings.”
Council of Hippo, Canon 36 (A.D. 393)
Pax Christu :harp:
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guanophore
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Where do they come from? How do we know what they are?
How is her appearance any different from that of Moses, and Elijah? Or Samuel? Do you believe those?
I agree, it is important to be honest.
You didn’t answer the question, Roy. Are we all the offspring of Mary? Look at the passage.
Basically what you are saying is that God does not do miracles. I hope that He will do one in your life, so that you can get over the blockage caused by overthinking.
Why are you here on CAF?
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denwiles
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It has no layered meaning!!! Come ON are you serious? The book of Revelation warns of addinG to it’s meaning. THIS IS CLEARLY ISRAEL!!! GOD IS OUR FATHER. JESUS ALONE BROUGHT US TO GOD BY HIS BLOOD!!! BOUGHT US AND WE GETILES ARE GRAFTED IN SO ABRAHAM IS OUR FATHER. JESUS IS OUR SOLE MEDIATOR!!! SEE THIS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU LIFT A HUMAN TO SUCH HIGH STANDARDS. YOU BEGIN TO APPLY SCRIPTURE SO IT FITS. THIS IS CALLED READING INTO IT. THIS REALLY GRIEVES MY HEART. Why??? SO MUCH ON MARY? WE HAVE ONE GOD, Mary Blessed yes !!!
“Jesus said all who do my Fathers will are my Mothers, brothers, and sisters.” JESUS SAID TO PRAY TO THE FATHER. WHY DIDN’T HE JUST SAY HAVE MARY PRAY FOR YOU? BECAUSE SHE IS A HUMAN AND GOD CAME TO SAVE HUMANS. YA’LL HAVE MORE NAMES FOR MARY THAN GOD. I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. IT DON’T FEEL RIGHT. DOES THIS REALLY FEEL RIGHT TO YOU. tHE BIBLE SAYS THEIR IS A WAY THAT SEEMS RIGHT TO A MAN, BUT IT LEADS TO DEATH. FOLLOW THE WORD OF GOD. OR YOU WILL GET OFF TRACK EVERYTIME!!!
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denwiles
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WE ARE NOT THE OFFSPRING OFF MARY!!! The Bible says because of the work of the Cross we are Abrham sons. Grafted branches into Israel. It comes out and says we are Abrahams Children not Mary’s. WHAT IS YOUR BIG HANG UP WITH MARY??? SHE IS BLESS, BUT JESUS ALONE SAVED US. SO WHATS UP??? YOU TRUTHFULLY DON’T THINKS IT’S WEIRD? PLEASE READ ACTS 15
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ShoppingA1
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I used to attend a Pentecostal Church of God prior to converting to Catholicism, and the pastor used to cross the line regularly in denigrating Mary as though she were disposable, saying on many occasions that if she’d said no God would have simply chosen someone else. This led, as one can imagine, several of the congregation to go further, and to disparage Mary in various vulgar ways.
Now, I know this, and I suspect there are other examples of people crossing the line from attacking Marian devotion to attacking Mary (a line Chick toes but does not cross). Do you have any handy examples of the latter? Links are always helpful, since people can then see for themselves.
Now, I know this, and I suspect there are other examples of people crossing the line from attacking Marian devotion to attacking Mary (a line Chick toes but does not cross). Do you have any handy examples of the latter? Links are always helpful, since people can then see for themselves.
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denwiles
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jesus is the only way to god. And it’s called salvation because people without christ are lost!!! And need to be saved!!!
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guanophore
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As part of Apocalyptic literature, it is by nature, polyvalent in it’s imagery. this means that the image carries many meanings in one symbol.
It references Jesus, the savior of the world, and the Woman who gave birth to Him.
The woman has aspects of the Chosen Israel, who as a nation gives birth to the Messiah. The image also has aspects of the Church, the Bride of Christ, who embraces all those who follow the commandments of Jesus. None of these interpretations is “wrong”, as the image carries elements of each. Mary embodies in herself the true faith of Israel, by making herself the obedient handmaid of the Lord, as God always intended for Israel.
Yes, the image does have elements of Israel. However, we are also painfully aware that Israel’s children, by and large, did not choose to follow the commandments of her son.
It was God who raised Mary to this standard. Since He chose to do so, who are we to deny Him this privilege?
Of course Jesus is the sole mediator. However, He is generous, and allows us to participate in the ministry of reconciling himself to the world.
Catholics have no need to “read into scripture”. Having produced the NT, the Catholic Church did not include anything in it that is contrary to Catholic Teaching.
Why are you shouting?
Since you pray to the Father, ask Him what kind of relationship He wants you to have with the Mother of His Son. If one of the terms of endearment or respect used by Christians comes to mind, fine, but if not, she may be to you Blessed Mary and you will be content.
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guanophore
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Dennis, if you wish to reject the Gift that Jesus gave to the Church in His mother, that is your perogative. He promised that those who follow Him would have:
Mark 10:29-30
I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and **brothers and sisters and mothers and children **and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.
He started by giving His own Mother to the Church. If she is good enough for Him, why can’t she be good enough for us?
When we are adopted into the family of God, we are made members one of another.
How is it that Jesus promised all who obey Him are adopted into His family, yet you refuse to allow yourself to be adopted by His mother? What are you afraid of?
No, actually, we are Abraham’s offspring if we have FAITH in the work of the cross. Those that do not embrace Christ on the cross by faith are not Abraham’s offspring.
This is false, Dennis. Mary is also a child of Abraham. These two things are not mutually exclusive. Elizabeth testifies:
Luke 1:45
45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord."
By her act of faith, she is also a child of Abraham.
Actually, I think you are the one with the “big hang up with Mary”.
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guanophore
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Yes, of course. Jesus sends His own into the world so that we can lead people to that salvation that is in Christ. Mary is very busy with this task, and will be until her Divine Son returns on the clouds to take up His own.
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piperspop
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I fail to understand why catholics need to ask the question as to whether or not this woman is Mary.
Answer, according to the Biblical interpretation of the Vatican, therefore the Magisterium, etc., is NO! Here is the given interpretation, and it does not change throughout the passage.
[1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from ⇒ Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (⇒ Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (⇒ Rev 12:6, ⇒ 13-17); cf ⇒ Isaiah 50:1; ⇒ 66:7; ⇒ Jeremiah 50:12.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P12V.HTM
Answer, according to the Biblical interpretation of the Vatican, therefore the Magisterium, etc., is NO! Here is the given interpretation, and it does not change throughout the passage.
[1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from ⇒ Genesis 37:9-10) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (⇒ Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (⇒ Rev 12:6, ⇒ 13-17); cf ⇒ Isaiah 50:1; ⇒ 66:7; ⇒ Jeremiah 50:12.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P12V.HTM
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TAB39
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Actually, Roy, many of them don’t. Some of them speak of her with an appalling lack of respect, as if Jesus passed through her like some sort of digestive process.
That’s a very hateful thing to say about anyone period.
II’m sure this poster already knows who that is. There is but ONE name that we are saved, that being Christ Jesus.
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denwiles
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Read Gen 37:9-11 Joseph had a dream and saw 11 stars, the sun, the moon, he making the twelfth star. This makes up Israel. If you see this as Mary it become very miss interpreted. A CATHOLIC commentary I have says this “The portent of the Woman the Child and the Dragon is an adaptation of the myth of Apollo’s birth. The women a cosmic queen is described much like Isis.” Have you ever read about “Nimrod?” The story of him and his mother who was also his wife. She was a pagan God. The statues are a woman holding a baby. If you say this is Mary, and then even the Catholic “The Harper Collins” commentary says it seems close to the same story. This is clearly Israel. Period! You miss allot of Scripture.As part of Apocalyptic literature, it is by nature, polyvalent in it’s imagery. this means that the image carries many meanings in one symbol.
It references Jesus, the savior of the world, and the Woman who gave birth to Him.
The woman has aspects of the Chosen Israel, who as a nation gives birth to the Messiah. The image also has aspects of the Church, the Bride of Christ, who embraces all those who follow the commandments of Jesus. None of these interpretations is “wrong”, as the image carries elements of each. Mary embodies in herself the true faith of Israel, by making herself the obedient handmaid of the Lord, as God always intended for Israel.
Yes, the image does have elements of Israel. However, we are also painfully aware that Israel’s children, by and large, did not choose to follow the commandments of her son.
It was God who raised Mary to this standard. Since He chose to do so, who are we to deny Him this privilege?
Of course Jesus is the sole mediator. However, He is generous, and allows us to participate in the ministry of reconciling himself to the world.
Catholics have no need to “read into scripture”. Having produced the NT, the Catholic Church did not include anything in it that is contrary to Catholic Teaching.
Why are you shouting?
Since you pray to the Father, ask Him what kind of relationship He wants you to have with the Mother of His Son. If one of the terms of endearment or respect used by Christians comes to mind, fine, but if not, she may be to you Blessed Mary and you will be content.
- The Church is never referred to as a woman; the bride of Christ is the Holy City that comes down from Heaven-please read Rev 21:9-10. The false church is referred to as a woman-Rev 17. So-no we are not the offspring of Mary, but of Abraham. Nimrod called Isis the queen of Heaven and all its inhabitants her offspring. Same devil, same deceptions. That is why the Word of God must be our sole Guide lead by the Holy Spirit.
IF YOU STUDY THE BIBLE IT INTERPETS IT’S SELF. #1 Rule in Hermeneutics Scripture interpets Scripture. - No where in the Bible does it say Mary is the Queen of Heaven, but it does say Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
- You say Catholics are of one mind. But the fact is there has been a debate going on for hundreds of years if Mary died or not.
- ST. Bernard says Mary was not Immaculate only Jesus was and he is canonized as a saint. Father Pacwa says he was wrong. That is not unity!
The Bad thing about bad tradition, not all is bad, is that you can’t persuade people the truth even when it clearly contradicts the Bible. It is easy to say “tradition says” There were false Prophets in Paul’s time. So bad tradition goes back to the start. I have nothing else to say to you because you don’t want to learn you want to be a teacher. Please study the Bible. You know it is the anointed word of God. So please with all the love I have in my Heart Study. Listed to Jesus! He is the Good Shepherd. Keep your eyes on Jesus the Author and finisher of your faith. I don’t mean to sound harsh, but false doctrine is a serious offense. One more thing Israel became a nation again in 1948. This is important because Israel is being gathered back to God and in the future will except Jesus as the Messiah. So this is Israel! Mary is not the Queen of Heaven!!! Sorry!!! She was and is however very blessed, and an awesome women of God. Mediator is Jesus alone. Again false Doctrine saying there are more than one Mediator. Why do you think the Holy Spirit came out and said one mediator? Because he knew one day some would say exactly what you have said. Jesus alone Mediates. He brought God and Man back to full fellowship, by being the perfect sacrifice, dying and raising from the dead. We don’t or can’t do it. Read all of Hebrews. Jesus is the High Priest.
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Good_Fella
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The sun, moon, and stars allude to Israel. But the woman is not identified with them. She is said to be “clothed” with the sun, moon, and stars. We have an allusion to the queenship of Mary in heaven. The title Gebirah, meaning “Queen Mother” or “Great Lady” was one of royalty and an office conferred upon the mothers of the kings of Israel, restricted to those queens who bore the kings in the line of King David - who prefigures Christ as the rightful heir to the throne of Judah and all of Israel.
The *Gebirah *, Queen Mother of the kingdom of Judah, was the most important and influential woman in the royal court and her son’s counsellor. In the Old Testament every queen mother is listed along with her royal son (King Jehoram being the exception because he married the wicked Athaliah). And the name of each queen mother is given in the introduction to each reign of a Davidic king.The Queen Mother was granted a throne by her son the king next to his, upon which she served as his counsellor and as advocate to the people, interceding on their behalf before the king.
Our Lord Jesus Christ is the true heir of King David (Mary is in the royal line of King Solomon.). He is the fulfillment of the covenant promises made to King David (2 Sam 7:16; 23:5; Lk 1:26-36). He rules from the kingdom of the new Jerusalem founded on the twelve Apostles, who represent the twelve tribes of Israel. It is proper that the Queen Mother of our Lord and King be granted the same privileges that the Davidic Queen Mothers of the old Covenant had been.
The angel Gabriel paid homage to our Gebirah of the new Covenant when he “hailed” her at the Annunciation (Lk 1:28), acknowledging her royal maternity. As Catholics still do today, the Judeo-Christians honoured Mary as the new and eternal Queen Mother perceiving the heavenly kingdom to be the new Israel. We have never invoked Mary as Queen of Heaven in the pagan sense as Protestants accuse us of doing with no warrant at all. English translations can be misleading for those severed from the Apostolic Tradition of the Church. Jeremiah uses the Hebrew word* Gebirah* when referring to the mother of a Davidic king and the Hebrew word meleketh (“queen”) for the Egyptian goddess. The two figures must remain distinguished from each other when reading the New Testament in light of the Old.
They were overjoyed at seeing the star, and on entering the house they saw the child with Mary his mother. They prostrated themselves and did him homage.
Matthew 2, 10-11
Pax Christu :harp:
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guanophore
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Then I guess it is fortunate that I did not say that!
The fact that I understand the Scriptures differently than you does not mean I “miss” them.
I agree, the Church is not a 'woman", but she is certainly referred to in the feminine. Paul makes it clear that marriage is a reflection of Jesus relationship with Church.
Eph 5:25-28
25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
The presence of false churches or false "women’ does not nullify the true church, or the true Woman (Mary). If you wish to reject the gift of Mary as your spiritual mother, this is your perogative. However, if she is good enough for Jesus, she is good enough for me.
Basically what you are saying, Dennis, is that the Catholic Church is being led astray by the devil, and that Catholic Teaching is a deception.
Yes, I learned this rule in my hermeneutics class. It took me a long time to realize that it is horse hockey.
It is the same thing. The only reason Mary has any privileges is because of Christ.
No, I never said anything of the sort. The Teaching of the Catholic Church is unified, and all who embrace it are in unity. However, I am fully aware that there are plenty of Catholics who reject the teaching of the Church. Personally, I think they are Protestants, and don’t know it.
I agree. Unity is in the doctrine delivered to the Church by Christ. Unity is only found in the people to the extent they embrace it.
I agree. However, this is not a problem for Catholics, since we know that there are no contradictions between sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. The NT was produced entirely out of Sacred Tradition, and they are both from the same Source.
What is contradictory are the opinions of individuals reading the scripture separated from the Apostolic Succession from which it was produced.
One must make a distinction between the traditions of men (customs) and Sacred Tradition, which is from God.
Gracious, Dennis. Just because a person does not want to embrace doctrine contrary to what the Apostles believed and taught does not mean one does not wish to learn. I have learned a great deal about such errant doctrines since I joined CAF, and I learn more everyday! There was even on fella on here that claimed that baptism had nothing to do with water! I get a new surprise nearly every day.
Thanks! I could not agree more.
Sometime you may wish to study the role of the Queen Mother in ancient Israel. Reflect on the visit of Bathsheba to her son Solomon as he sat on his throne, and see how He treated her. Do you think the Lord would do less for His mother? Try the role of the Gebirah, and learn about the political power of the Gebirah.
No, Dennis, I have not said that Jesus is not the sole mediator between God and Man. What I said was that He is generous,a nd and he permits us to participate in the reconciliation of the world to Himself.
And we, if we are in Him, are part of His royal priesthood, a holy nation.
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TAB39
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This is the best discussion I have seen here, bar none.
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Good_Fella
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A footnote for a passage in the New American Bible isn’t exactly an official document of the Magisterium. The interpretations we find here are the products of private Catholic exegesis which, of course, do not contravene Church doctrines or embrace the full spectrum of Catholic beliefs.
The Latin Vulgate is the official Catholic Bible of the Vatican.
12: 1-5 " ‘A Woman’…The Church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed lady."
Douay-Rheims Bible
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