Are we experiencing Chastisement?

[Tom317]

the population keeps going up the last I heard

So when you said “people” aren’t having babies you meant certain kinds of people

I’m not really comfortable with that kind of statement.

With regards to Chastisement… there have always been wars, plagues, famines, and the like. Nothing new there.

Like LilyM, I am also not really comfortable with the idea that success or failure in this world or general larger circumstances beyond an individual’s control are related to a person’s or a society’s spiritual status.

While societies can damage themselves through bad judgments it is our doing and not God’s.

I thought that the point of the parable of the seeds that grew amongst the thorns was that God wasn’t about to rip out the thorns because the wheat would be damaged too.

Well naturally

I wonder then, what was that about the Great Flood and Sodom and Gommorah? I wonder why those Israelites had to wander the desert for 40 years and why Egypt had to suffer crushing blows as Pharaoh remained stubborn in his refusal to let the Israelites go?

If God has no hand in coporate punishment/chastisement, then explain those events and many others, including the fall and death that has been imposed by God on all humanity.

 

[BlestOne]

More often than not God punishes us by giving us exactly what we ask for. Look at the Israelites when they wanted an earthy king… God warned them that this would lead to taxes and war… but did we listen? How about when the Israelites griped about only having manna… he made them eat meat nonstop…

My humble opinion is that we have already set in motion consequences that we have thus ignored so far. As one poster said… social security is a good example. When the poo hits the fan we will all be wondering why God abandoned us… when he hasn’t, he just let us have our way for a while. Before the coming of any “age” there is a corresponding “revolution” such was the case with the industrial age… we are still going through the information revolution as we have not yet arrived at the information age. So to put this together with God’s plan I would have to say we are still in the spiritual or moral revolution phase not a spiritual or moral age. All things and ideas have to go through this struggle to find the proper usage for it.

Just my opinion…

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I really don’t believe that God punishes us. I think that is the tribal mentality of the people of the Old Testament, which has been carried to the generations of our current time.

What is called God’s punishment is the natural consequence of sin.

Even Pope John Paul II, when speaking about hell said that God did not send people to hell, they went their on their own, or in other words, the consequence of their sin, brought them hell. So it is with sin.

What we’re going through today is very much the consequence of sin. The sin of war, bigotry and hatred. Sin feeds itself, and the consequences just multiply over time until there’s a complete breakdown in society and in nature.

What God does is, he saves us from sin. Through him, hearts are changed and sin is destroyed.

Jim

 

[steveandersen]

I wonder then, what was that about the Great Flood and Sodom and Gommorah?

I thought that one of the points of the flood story (among others) was pointing out a reason why God just doesn’t wipe the evil from the face of the earth. He would not curse the entire earth because of the actions of man.
IIRC the rainbow was the sign of that covenant.

As for Sodom, God went through a lot (a Lot?) of trouble to find one virtuous man and even that man lost his wife and was seduced by his daughters.
Once again illustrating how blasting the evil folks doesn’t always guarantee that evil is destroyed.

Which is one of the reasons (if one could presume) that God chose to stop smiting people and send his only son to take on the sins of the world.

…
If God has no hand in coporate punishment/chastisement, then explain those events and many others, including the fall and death that has been imposed by God on all humanity.

We did it ourselves through free will.

You are not the first person to ask about the apparent differences between God in the NT and the OT

 

[MichaelTDoyle]

Somebody (I think it was Billy Graham, but I’m not sure) said that if God didn’t punish America for its sins, He would have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Not so. They did not have the gift won for us on the Cross and the oceans of Christ’s Mercy as our Brother. I believe there are many people, I think particularly those who pray the divine mercy chaplet, who are extending mercy and time for repentence for sinners.

We also have the Holy Spirit in this age Who breaks the chains of sin and gives humility to the heart.

We also have the Mass, THE MOST POWERFUL INTERCESSORY PRAYER OF ALL TIME.

I must pray that chaplet more often too, I think.

Jesus gave us the chance to cooperate and even gave us His mother. We are NOT without recourse to help ourselves and those who sin.

God bless us all.

 

[Tom317]

I thought that one of the points of the flood story (among others) was pointing out a reason why God just doesn’t wipe the evil from the face of the earth. He would not curse the entire earth because of the actions of man.
IIRC the rainbow was the sign of that covenant.

As for Sodom, God went through a lot (a Lot?) of trouble to find one virtuous man and even that man lost his wife and was seduced by his daughters.
Once again illustrating how blasting the evil folks doesn’t always guarantee that evil is destroyed.

Which is one of the reasons (if one could presume) that God chose to stop smiting people and send his only son to take on the sins of the world.

We did it ourselves through free will.

You are not the first person to ask about the apparent differences between God in the NT and the OT

The God of the OT is the God of the NT, they can not be separated. What God did in the OT days are strong lessons for us today, and for all people through all time.

I never said God was going to wipe us out, though in the event of the Great Flood (a real event btw, not merely symbolic), God did wipe out all of humanity except eight people.

While it is true that evil has existed since The Fall, it is equally true that God has tried to steer us away from that evil and sometimes it takes pain to learn lessons. Do not forget, Jesus (who is God) told us that we MUST pick up our cross every single day and follow Him. Crosses are painful and they are crafted specifically for each person to help them learn the lessons they need in order to recieve eternal life in Heaven. That is true on a personal level and on a coporate level. The western world has quite massively turned from God, on a coproate and on a personal level. It is merely a sign of justice that God would take and allow strong actions to help save more souls.

 

[Tom317]

I really don’t believe that God punishes us. I think that is the tribal mentality of the people of the Old Testament, which has been carried to the generations of our current time.

What is called God’s punishment is the natural consequence of sin.

Even Pope John Paul II, when speaking about hell said that God did not send people to hell, they went their on their own, or in other words, the consequence of their sin, brought them hell. So it is with sin.

What we’re going through today is very much the consequence of sin. The sin of war, bigotry and hatred. Sin feeds itself, and the consequences just multiply over time until there’s a complete breakdown in society and in nature.

What God does is, he saves us from sin. Through him, hearts are changed and sin is destroyed.

Jim

Then you must not believe in the hell or purgatory.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Then you must not believe in the hell or purgatory.

I’m sorry that you came away with this understanding, from what I’ve posted. However, it is not the case.

Hell is the consequence of sin, purgatory is the not the so much the consequence of sin, but rather, the opportunity to grow from where we are at, when we die. If we are in purgatory, we are saved and will eventually be in heaven.

Jim

 

[Tom317]

I’m sorry that you came away with this understanding, from what I’ve posted. However, it is not the case.

Hell is the consequence of sin, purgatory is the not the so much the consequence of sin, but rather, the opportunity to grow from where we are at, when we die. If we are in purgatory, we are saved and will eventually be in heaven.

Jim

Yes, all true. However, hell can also be accurately described as being eternal punishment for the sins we choose to commit and not repent from. Also, while we are saved if we go to purgatory, it is still a state of purification and pain.

God created the model of what will happen when/if we sin. That means God does not ONLY save, He also justly punishes, corrects and chastises. In fact, the Bible tells us that our trials and sufferings should be embraced because it means God loves us so much He is willing to correct us.

 

[HailMary]

its very simple:

the Covenant has blessings and curses and if you obey the Covenant you are blessed, else you are cursed by God.

The majority of Catholics in this country are contracepting, are indifferent or support abortion, and are just like pagans. So yes, we are being chastised and if we persist in this sin, God-forbid, Gods wrath will be triggered even more.

If you don’t understand the Covenant please read

LEVITICUS 26

and

DEUTERONOMY 28

God Bless

 

[Tom317]

its very simple:

the Covenant has blessings and curses and if you obey the Covenant you are blessed, else you are cursed by God.

The majority of Catholics in this country are contracepting, are indifferent or support abortion, and are just like pagans. So yes, we are being chastised and if we persist in this sin, God-forbid, Gods wrath will be triggered even more.

If you don’t understand the Covenant please read

LEVITICUS 26

and

DEUTERONOMY 28

God Bless

Great post and imo (sadly) very true. Thank you.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

More often than not God punishes us by giving us exactly what we ask for.
Before the coming of any “age” there is a corresponding “revolution” such was the case with the industrial age… we are still going through the information revolution as we have not yet arrived at the information age. So to put this together with God’s plan I would have to say we are still in the spiritual or moral revolution phase not a spiritual or moral age. All things and ideas have to go through this struggle to find the proper usage for it.

We’ve asked for equality.
The information age will probably give Americans an equal GDP per capita to China. Chinese living standards will rise to the point where it is rare for people to go hungry or children to be without shoes. American living standards will fall to the point where only the lucky can drive cars.

 

[Tom317]

We’ve asked for equality.
The information age will probably give Americans an equal GDP per capita to China. Chinese living standards will rise to the point where it is rare for people to go hungry or children to be without shoes. American living standards will fall to the point where only the lucky can drive cars.

That may or may not happen. Yet, it would also fit into the notion of being a chastisement if it does happen. From those given much, much is expected. The United States has arguably been more then any other generation, yet we have turned from God in massive numbers and we lead the world in killing the unborn.

 

[steveandersen]

The God of the OT is the God of the NT, they can not be separated. What God did in the OT days are strong lessons for us today, and for all people through all time.

Yes I know that is why I spoke of apparent differences and not necessarily real ones

I never said God was going to wipe us out, though in the event of the Great Flood (a real event btw, not merely symbolic), God did wipe out all of humanity except eight people.

The literal, historical reality of the Flood is another topic entirely

My point was that it is not a story about a boat ride with animals.

While it is true that evil has existed since The Fall, it is equally true that God has tried to steer us away from that evil and sometimes it takes pain to learn lessons. Do not forget, Jesus (who is God) told us that we MUST pick up our cross every single day and follow Him. Crosses are painful and they are crafted specifically for each person to help them learn the lessons they need in order to recieve eternal life in Heaven. That is true on a personal level and on a coporate level. The western world has quite massively turned from God, on a coproate and on a personal level. It is merely a sign of justice that God would take and allow strong actions to help save more souls.

Since the innocent suffer from the misfortunes of a society as well as the not so innocent (if not more so) I wouldn’t be quite so quick to lay it all at God’s feet.

 

[Tom317]

Yes I know that is why I spoke of apparent differences and not necessarily real ones

The literal, historical reality of the Flood is another topic entirely

My point was that it is not a story about a boat ride with animals.

Since the innocent suffer from the misfortunes of a society as well as the not so innocent (if not more so) I wouldn’t be quite so quick to lay it all at God’s feet.

None of it is at God’s feet as you say. Example: if a Father tells his son that he must come home from a movie by eleven o’clock, and the son comes home at midnight, then the son has no reason to complain about the punishments the father invokes because the son willingly and knowingly disobeyed. In a very real way we can say the son did it to himself, yet we cannot remove the son’s father from the picture because it was the father that created the rules and created the consequences for breaking the rules.

Similarily, God created us and He created the rules to live by. When we disobey God and His rules, we can expect direct and indirect consequences to happen because of our disobedience…we caused it, yet it is still God that created the just punishment/consequence for our actions.

Corporately we are very far from God, and we are doing that knowingly and willfully and it would be unjust if there was no consequence from God regarding how sinful we have become.

Chastisment is a punishment and a just action from God to help us turn from our sinful ways…it is a sign of love and mercy.

 

[RNRobert]

Not so. They did not have the gift won for us on the Cross and the oceans of Christ’s Mercy as our Brother. I believe there are many people, I think particularly those who pray the divine mercy chaplet, who are extending mercy and time for repentence for sinners.

We also have the Holy Spirit in this age Who breaks the chains of sin and gives humility to the heart.

We also have the Mass, THE MOST POWERFUL INTERCESSORY PRAYER OF ALL TIME.

I must pray that chaplet more often too, I think.

Jesus gave us the chance to cooperate and even gave us His mother. We are NOT without recourse to help ourselves and those who sin.

God bless us all.

True, we have graces that Sodom and Gomorrah lacked. However, as Tom317 pointed out, to whom much is given, more is expected (the words of Jesus Himself, forget the B/C/V). If we reject those graces (which much of the Western world seems to have done), how much more will be our condemnation?

 

[Jerome42]

For decades Christians have claimed that abortion, divorce, adultery, gay agendas, the sexual revoltuion, etc, has to the potential of destroying the Untied States and that God would not suffer our sins forever.

Are we in the midst of a divinely allowed period of chastisement for our coproate sins as a nation (i.e. Iraq war, war on terror, etc.)?

[Note: I am not saying God brough a chastisement on us, I am asking if God has allowed us to punish ourselves]

Could it be that Our Lady has finally given up on placing Her Mantle of Protection on this country?

She is our only hope. Please pray that She intercedes on our behalf. We are deserving of God’s chastisements, however through prayer we may delay the inevitable. Time is short.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

the population keeps going up the last I heard

Going up doesnt mean the nation is growing proportionately.
For example Mexicans have higher birth rates than Americans. As a result mexican children are contributing more to the population increase. Further people are living longer which means the population will appear to be rising despite the fact a significant percentage is unable to work and is nearing the end of life.
In regards to growing proportionately, any birth rate less than 2 children per family will mean those people will not be growing but shrinking in time.

So when you said “people” aren’t having babies you meant certain kinds of people

Yes.

I’m not really comfortable with that kind of statement.

Its the truth, no sense in pretending.
If they want to have children God bless them, I have nothing against it.

With regards to Chastisement… there have always been wars, plagues, famines, and the like. Nothing new there.

I never said there was something “new”

Like LilyM, I am also not really comfortable with the idea that success or failure in this world or general larger circumstances beyond an individual’s control are related to a person’s or a society’s spiritual status.

I have a pocket Bible that quotes the Book of Proverbs on the first page:
Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people. Prov 14:34

While societies can damage themselves through bad judgments it is our doing and not God’s.

God teaches that not following Him leads to death both on the spiritual and physical realm.

I thought that the point of the parable of the seeds that grew amongst the thorns was that God wasn’t about to rip out the thorns because the wheat would be damaged too.

Thats why God hasnt destroyed the world yet, that comes last and the second coming of Christ.

Well naturally

It was protestantism under the appearance of true Christianity that led to the moral meltdown. For example in regards to divorce and remarriage, instead of condemning it, pastors allowed it. When people see a pastor giving the green light to something then they think its ok. Eventually it became commonplace in our society to have ex-this and step-that. The truth is that is a sign of a melt down and nothing more than church sponsored fornication. Further they undermined the role of parents, especially the father of the house and when a house is divided it cannot stand as Jesus says.

 

[Tom317]

Could it be that Our Lady has finally given up on placing Her Mantle of Protection on this country?

She is our only hope. Please pray that She intercedes on our behalf. We are deserving of God’s chastisements, however through prayer we may delay the inevitable. Time is short.

Awesome point and one that has not escape me. Thank you for posting it.

 

[BlestOne]

We’ve asked for equality.
The information age will probably give Americans an equal GDP per capita to China. Chinese living standards will rise to the point where it is rare for people to go hungry or children to be without shoes. American living standards will fall to the point where only the lucky can drive cars.

Interesting concept… never thought about it that way… But greed will beat out equality. Some of us live in rural areas and would be sorely pressed without transportation…