Are we experiencing Chastisement?

[LilyM]

None of it is at God’s feet as you say. Example: if a Father tells his son that he must come home from a movie by eleven o’clock, and the son comes home at midnight, then the son has no reason to complain about the punishments the father invokes because the son willingly and knowingly disobeyed. In a very real way we can say the son did it to himself, yet we cannot remove the son’s father from the picture because it was the father that created the rules and created the consequences for breaking the rules.

Similarily, God created us and He created the rules to live by. When we disobey God and His rules, we can expect direct and indirect consequences to happen because of our disobedience…we caused it, yet it is still God that created the just punishment/consequence for our actions.

Oh man, have you even HEARD of the Book of Job? It dealt with exactly this question. Remember Job was a righteous man who suffered terribly? And his friends thought he must have sinned dreadfully and thus earned such dire sufferings? God himself intervened to make the point that suffering is NOT related to sinfulness.

Aren’t our greatest and holiest saints, after all, those who have suffered the most, after the example of Christ himself? What makes you think God treats societies any differently? He did in the OT, but then he treated most INDIVIDUALS differently too, promising Abraham to make a great nation of his descendants for example, as a reward for his righteousness.

The whole POINT of Christ dying and suffering is to show us that suffering is not mere punishment - it is a positive means to holiness, often given as a gift to those God loves to help them achieve greater sanctity.

After all, Christ committed no sin himself to merit suffering what he did. Neither did Mary. Neither were the sufferings of a lot of the saints and martyrs in any way related to or proportional with any sins they may have committed.

Think of the quarter of a million who died in the tsunami a few years ago, they and their societies didn’t deserve such devastation. Neither did the 40 million people Stalin killed in three years in Russia - a number that is seriously comparable to the abortion figures you’ve been raising. Mind you he himself died peacefully in his bed - now there was someone who can be said to deserve chastisement if anyone does. Yet he didn’t get his likely desserts while he was alive, did he?

To be sure every single one of us deserves chastisement for our sins. But Christ’s death obtained mercy and forgiveness for us. And he himself said his kingdom (meaning power of reward and punishment a well) is not of this world.

Of course every single unrepentant sinner will be chastised, but the place for such reckoning really is after death. There is just too much rain that has fallen on the unjust to bless them, and droughts afflicting the just, too many evil societies that have nonetheless thrived, and good people and countries that have been plagued with problems, and too many evil people who have died peacefully in their old age while the good suffer difficulty after difficulty, for any other explanation to make sense.

 

[Tom317]

Oh man, have you even HEARD of the Book of Job? It dealt with exactly this question. Remember Job was a righteous man who suffered terribly? And his friends thought he must have sinned dreadfully and thus earned such dire sufferings? God himself intervened to make the point that suffering is NOT related to sinfulness.

Aren’t our greatest and holiest saints, after all, those who have suffered the most, after the example of Christ himself? What makes you think God treats societies any differently? He did in the OT, but then he treated most INDIVIDUALS differently too, promising Abraham to make a great nation of his descendants for example, as a reward for his righteousness.

The whole POINT of Christ dying and suffering is to show us that suffering is not mere punishment - it is a positive means to holiness, often given as a gift to those God loves to help them achieve greater sanctity.

After all, Christ committed no sin himself to merit suffering what he did. Neither did Mary. Neither were the sufferings of a lot of the saints and martyrs in any way related to or proportional with any sins they may have committed.

Think of the quarter of a million who died in the tsunami a few years ago, they and their societies didn’t deserve such devastation. Neither did the 40 million people Stalin killed in three years in Russia - a number that is seriously comparable to the abortion figures you’ve been raising. Mind you he himself died peacefully in his bed - now there was someone who can be said to deserve chastisement if anyone does. Yet he didn’t get his likely desserts while he was alive, did he?

To be sure every single one of us deserves chastisement for our sins. But Christ’s death obtained mercy and forgiveness for us. And he himself said his kingdom (meaning power of reward and punishment a well) is not of this world.

Of course every single unrepentant sinner will be chastised, but the place for such reckoning really is after death. There is just too much rain that has fallen on the unjust to bless them, and droughts afflicting the just, too many evil societies that have nonetheless thrived, and good people and countries that have been plagued with problems, and too many evil people who have died peacefully in their old age while the good suffer difficulty after difficulty, for any other explanation to make sense.

I think you misunderstand my point. I am not saying that in all cases people suffer as a consequence of personal sin. I am saying that all suffering is due to sin, be it original sin, corporate sin or personal sin.

Further, I disagree with your assessment about good and evil cultures. I believe that hundreds of countries and cultures have come and gone as a direct consequence of corporate sin. Sodom and Gommorah fell because of their coporate sin, the pre-flood world was warned about their corporate sin and then was literally erased by the flood when they refused to listen to the warning, Rome, Egypt, Britain, the Mayans, et al, have all fallen, been reduced, or have been erased due to corporate sin.

And…it is my firm belief that the United States will fall and be erased if we do not turn from our corporate sin–and that turning back to God needs to happen very, very soon or it will be too late!

 

[Jerome42]

And…it is my firm belief that the United States will fall and be erased if we do not turn from our corporate sin–and that turning back to God needs to happen very, very soon or it will be too late!

How correct you are. The earlier chastisements in history were between God and mankind, and even the prophets of the day could not intervene. We are in a totally different situation now. Since Christ has suffered and died for our sins we now have a great multitude of Saints and Holy People in Heaven who can intercede for us, Our Blessed Mother being at the forefront. We cannot let this opportunity pass us by. Please pray the rosary so that she may help us.

 

[Tom317]

How correct you are. The earlier chastisements in history were between God and mankind, and even the prophets of the day could not intervene. We are in a totally different situation now. Since Christ has suffered and died for our sins we now have a great multitude of Saints and Holy People in Heaven who can intercede for us, Our Blessed Mother being at the forefront. We cannot let this opportunity pass us by. Please pray the rosary so that she may help us.

I agree. We have many tools at our disposal and they must be used daily.

 

[Giovanni]

Oh man, have you even HEARD of the Book of Job? It dealt with exactly this question. Remember Job was a righteous man who suffered terribly? And his friends thought he must have sinned dreadfully and thus earned such dire sufferings? God himself intervened to make the point that suffering is NOT related to sinfulness.

Aren’t our greatest and holiest saints, after all, those who have suffered the most, after the example of Christ himself? What makes you think God treats societies any differently? He did in the OT, but then he treated most INDIVIDUALS differently too, promising Abraham to make a great nation of his descendants for example, as a reward for his righteousness.

The whole POINT of Christ dying and suffering is to show us that suffering is not mere punishment - it is a positive means to holiness, often given as a gift to those God loves to help them achieve greater sanctity.

After all, Christ committed no sin himself to merit suffering what he did. Neither did Mary. Neither were the sufferings of a lot of the saints and martyrs in any way related to or proportional with any sins they may have committed.

Think of the quarter of a million who died in the tsunami a few years ago, they and their societies didn’t deserve such devastation. Neither did the 40 million people Stalin killed in three years in Russia - a number that is seriously comparable to the abortion figures you’ve been raising. Mind you he himself died peacefully in his bed - now there was someone who can be said to deserve chastisement if anyone does. Yet he didn’t get his likely desserts while he was alive, did he?

To be sure every single one of us deserves chastisement for our sins. But Christ’s death obtained mercy and forgiveness for us. And he himself said his kingdom (meaning power of reward and punishment a well) is not of this world.

Of course every single unrepentant sinner will be chastised, but the place for such reckoning really is after death. There is just too much rain that has fallen on the unjust to bless them, and droughts afflicting the just, too many evil societies that have nonetheless thrived, and good people and countries that have been plagued with problems, and too many evil people who have died peacefully in their old age while the good suffer difficulty after difficulty, for any other explanation to make sense.

I am trying to understand where you are coming from, and though I believe you are right on many points, I think you are missing the big picture.
Yes every person and every situation is different for why we suffer. In Job’s case, if I remember right, it was the devil who challenged God about Job, saying that Job only loved and served God because he had it so good, ultimately God proved him wrong.
As far as the suffering of our Lord, it was because of sin that He suffered, though He was without sin, He took all our sins upon Himself, so again the bottom line to His suffering was sin.
And the many saints and martyrs, they suffered as they did because they united themselves to the One who suffered for all of us because of our sins. Again the common denominator in all of this is sin.
And it is because of sin that not only this country, but the whole world, will continue to suffer.

Under the same breath however, suffering also occurs to bring about a greater good, and invoke acts of love in those that without witnessing suffering first hand, may never elevate themselves to a level that would bring them closer to God by their acts of love.

I hope I made a little sense, and anyone feel free to correct me please if I have mispoken.

God Bless All

 

[steveandersen]

None of it is at God’s feet as you say. Example: if a Father tells his son that he must come home from a movie by eleven o’clock, and the son comes home at midnight, then the son has no reason to complain about the punishments the father invokes because the son willingly and knowingly disobeyed. In a very real way we can say the son did it to himself, yet we cannot remove the son’s father from the picture because it was the father that created the rules and created the consequences for breaking the rules.

Similarily, God created us and He created the rules to live by. When we disobey God and His rules, we can expect direct and indirect consequences to happen because of our disobedience…we caused it, yet it is still God that created the just punishment/consequence for our actions.

Corporately we are very far from God, and we are doing that knowingly and willfully and it would be unjust if there was no consequence from God regarding how sinful we have become.

Chastisment is a punishment and a just action from God to help us turn from our sinful ways…it is a sign of love and mercy.

But if the son comes home at midnight and father not only punishes him but also his brothers and sisters who were all safe in bed at 10:00 that is hardly just, loving, or merciful.

 

[LilyM]

Yes every person and every situation is different for why we suffer. In Job’s case, if I remember right, it was the devil who challenged God about Job, saying that Job only loved and served God because he had it so good, ultimately God proved him wrong.

This is the bit that you need to concentrate on. Job did NOT suffer due to sin - not his own sins, not the sins of his family, not the sins of his townspeople or country, nor the sins of anybody else. Job did not suffer because of sin AT ALL. Full stop.

His friends were the ones saying that his suffering must have been due to sin - his own or that of someone around him. They were wrong. He suffered because it was permitted by God as a test of his righteousness.

The common denominator in all of this is sin.
And it is because of sin that not only this country, but the whole world, will continue to suffer.

I simply have to refer you back to Job. Job’s suffering very clearly is NOT due, as I said, to his or sins or any sin committed by anybody around him. That is the whole point of the book, and if you haven’t understood that much of it then you don’t understand the story at all. Why then do you assume that all the sufferings of all the saints and martyrs as well as all the evil people is solely due to sin? It isn’t!

Suffering is the fire through which God tests us. To say that all suffering is always punishment for sin is like saying that jewellers heat up the metal they work on because they are angry at it or because that metal or some other metal has done something wrong to ‘deserve’ the treatment it gets. It’s every bit as nonsensical to me as that.

God Bless All

God bless you too

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You know, the radical Muslims pretty much believe the same thing about themselves. They believe that because their nations have not been following the commandments of Allah, Allah has kept them under oppression. So, they bring an orthodoxy like that in Iran and the Taliban.

Once again, it is my firm belief, that God does not send chastisements and punishments on us, for our sins, but rather, these are consequences of sin, or the product of sin. God can not protect us, if we move away from him through sin.

I think the idea that God himself, sadistically sends wars and disasters on people to punish them, is primitive thinking.

In fact, Jesus showed us that God is the opposite of this mentality.

Jim

 

[Eireann]

I agree. We can punish ourselves far worse!

For example: How will abortion punish America?

I think abortion is the greatest threat to the planet, not just America, since the Church is Universal, maybe we should see it as a universal problem.
Abortion makes me puke, butchering little babies, Oh ! my God, how low can we go.

 

[spauline]

i haven’t read the whole thread, but i thought I’d share my two cents.

I firmly agree with a notion that an epic chastisement is imminent, and not on my own.

For any interested, read this from ETWN experts: it says that many mystics have prophesied of a PRE-end of the world scenario, in which there is minor apostasy before the times of the very end, and in which a condition chastisement is predicted if humanity does not repent and return to God. But the good news is that, even if this “minor” chastisement comes (as opposed to the “great” one of the very end of the world), Christians will reunited, and the Gospel of the Catholic Church will be restored for a great era of peace. Only after this significant age of spiritual prosperity will there occur the great apostasy of the end.

But I would also go deeper than that: I believe the PUBLIC revelation of Scripture prefigures this, at a bare minimum, in an idealistic sense.

Consider, for example, the “Two Witnesses” of Revelation. Metaphorically, there is great period in which there are attempts to “harm” them. “And if any man will harm them, in this manner must be he be harmed.” And so for most of the history of the Church (until modern times), there indeed have been great “harms” attempted to resist the “witness” of the Church through Sacred Scripture and Tradition. And it is so true! Whoever will refuse to accept a truth that is drawn from these great wellsprings of the Divine Love manifested through Word, is intrinsically harming himself by the very resistance they give to the truths, for the truths of God are veritably REDEMPTIVE, for they speak to our intellects great mysteries of God’s Love for us, and so to cast any one of these “aside” is to “harm” yourself spiritually by the deprivation of your soul of the nourishment that the Divine Truths give us.

And until modern times, whereas the various attacks were “harming” the witness of the Church, they didn’t go so far as to completely KILL the Witness of the Church, for they would still accept some value to the truths of Our Mother.

Just to elaborate, the Muslims indeed harm the Church’s witness, but they are not UTTERLY depraved, for they still acknowledge the existence of a God who must be obeyed, and who has"revealed things".

Similary, too, the Orthodox retain almost all of Catholicism. Their main harm is the rejection of the special mediated fatherhood of Peter.

And even though the Protestants harm that great subdivision of Truth, the Sacred ORAL Tradition, they will still listen to Scripture (at least the well meaning ones).

And even the “Enlightenment” persons (deists and rationalists) will not completely turn from any religion, for they at least acknowledge some “Supreme Being” up there that should be honored and that one should at least stive of his own efforts to live a natural virtue that is rather evident from the Creation.

But in modern times, the apostate secular messianism has KILLED the Witnesses. It is a time when the atheistic and relativistic materialists have considerd the totality of the witness as of no value. For the modern world “sends gifts to one another” to celebrate that it is at last “free from the torment” of ANY religion, that man, independent of ANY faith, can find his fulfillment, and that even the essential moral basics of life (life and sex issues especially) are irrelevant and out dated.

But lo and behold, the “Two Witnesses” will stand upon their feet, that is, when the chastisement comes, they will begin to fear God once again, even as much as the Jews who had hitherto ridiculed and ignored the prophets, were brought to their knees by Babylon and its devastating chastisement.

But the witnesses will be assumed, for, again, the Catholic mystics prophesy that the minor tribulation will manifest the spiritual depravities of all lies outside the Church, and show humanity the great depth and wisdom of our Mother, and this “teaching suffering” will bring humanity back to the fullness of the Gospel, even as the Jews repented and were restored to the Old Covenant and their homeland. That is, the Lord will gather all the foreign nations (Islam, Orthodoxy , Protestantism, Deists/Rationalists, and the apostates) back to the “Promised Land”, which is the Catholic Church! Amen, Alleluia!

If anyone would like further elaboration, I have stuff on this.

Blessings to you, Tom!

 

[Giovanni]

Once again, it is my firm belief, that God does not send chastisements and punishments on us, for our sins, but rather, these are consequences of sin, or the product of sin. God can not protect us, if we move away from him through sin.

I think the idea that God himself, sadistically sends wars and disasters on people to punish them, is primitive thinking.

In fact, Jesus showed us that God is the opposite of this mentality.

Jim

Thanks for your reply, I should have elaborated a bit more on my earlier reply to clarify as you did on the consequences of sin.

God Bless All

 

[Tom317]

You know, the radical Muslims pretty much believe the same thing about themselves. They believe that because their nations have not been following the commandments of Allah, Allah has kept them under oppression. So, they bring an orthodoxy like that in Iran and the Taliban.

Once again, it is my firm belief, that God does not send chastisements and punishments on us, for our sins, but rather, these are consequences of sin, or the product of sin. God can not protect us, if we move away from him through sin.

I think the idea that God himself, sadistically sends wars and disasters on people to punish them, is primitive thinking.

In fact, Jesus showed us that God is the opposite of this mentality.

Jim

How do you explain death? How do you explain hell and purgatroy and the final judgment? How do you explain the great flood, Sodom and Gomorah, the Exodus, et al? In each case sin is what lead to the consequence, but it was not mankind that created the consequence, it was God. The Bible is filled with passages wherein God either sends punishment, or teaches us we must obey to avoud punishment.

 

[Tom317]

This is the bit that you need to concentrate on. Job did NOT suffer due to sin - not his own sins, not the sins of his family, not the sins of his townspeople or country, nor the sins of anybody else. Job did not suffer because of sin AT ALL. Full stop.

His friends were the ones saying that his suffering must have been due to sin - his own or that of someone around him. They were wrong. He suffered because it was permitted by God as a test of his righteousness.

I simply have to refer you back to Job. Job’s suffering very clearly is NOT due, as I said, to his or sins or any sin committed by anybody around him. That is the whole point of the book, and if you haven’t understood that much of it then you don’t understand the story at all. Why then do you assume that all the sufferings of all the saints and martyrs as well as all the evil people is solely due to sin? It isn’t!

Suffering is the fire through which God tests us. To say that all suffering is always punishment for sin is like saying that jewellers heat up the metal they work on because they are angry at it or because that metal or some other metal has done something wrong to ‘deserve’ the treatment it gets. It’s every bit as nonsensical to me as that.

God bless you too

Simple answer to all your questions:

There would be NO suffering if there was no sin. Suffering happens because of sin. Even the suffering we endure becaquse of health problems is the consequence of sin, original sin.

Take away sin and we are in paradise.

 

[Tom317]

This is the bit that you need to concentrate on. Job did NOT suffer due to sin - not his own sins, not the sins of his family, not the sins of his townspeople or country, nor the sins of anybody else. Job did not suffer because of sin AT ALL. Full stop.

His friends were the ones saying that his suffering must have been due to sin - his own or that of someone around him. They were wrong. He suffered because it was permitted by God as a test of his righteousness.

I simply have to refer you back to Job. Job’s suffering very clearly is NOT due, as I said, to his or sins or any sin committed by anybody around him. That is the whole point of the book, and if you haven’t understood that much of it then you don’t understand the story at all. Why then do you assume that all the sufferings of all the saints and martyrs as well as all the evil people is solely due to sin? It isn’t!

Suffering is the fire through which God tests us. To say that all suffering is always punishment for sin is like saying that jewellers heat up the metal they work on because they are angry at it or because that metal or some other metal has done something wrong to ‘deserve’ the treatment it gets. It’s every bit as nonsensical to me as that.

God bless you too

I further submit you do yet fully understand the book of Job. Satan did the sinning, he was the “person” who wanted to tempt and test and create trials of Job to show God that Job was not righteous. Satan, at his usual best, did all sorts of sinning before God in that account just as he did in the garden. One of the many lessons of that account is that we must do everything we can to stand strong in the face of trials that come our way, and we have no way of knowing from where or whom those trials may come. I argue that in today’s world we have lost the understanding of that account and we arograntly think God does not discipline or punish us…that is utter and complete nonsense, God does discipline and punish us for our personal and coporate sins and sometimes we suffer at the sinful hands of others. I know of no-one that is saying the sin has to be personal in order to suffer, oftentimes the sin comes to us corporately or even as a result of original sin, and many other times the sins of others (Satan in Job’s case) makes us suffer.

The bottom line: Take away sin and there is no more suffering, no more storms or hurricanes or cancer or death or anything negative at all.

 

[Shoshana]

And…it is my firm belief that the United States will fall and be erased if we do not turn from our corporate sin–and that turning back to God needs to happen very, very soon or it will be too late!

Fr Corapi, one of your many holy priests, has said the very same thing! He says that if we (not just the US for sure) does not change tis ways, 9-11 will be like a walk in the park! Hard words for sure…he keeps saying, wake up america (or any other country)

 

[Tom317]

Fr Corapi, one of your many holy priests, has said the very same thing! He says that if we (not just the US for sure) does not change tis ways, 9-11 will be like a walk in the park! Hard words for sure…he keeps saying, wake up america (or any other country)

I agree with the wonderful Priest, sadly.

 

[spauline]

I just like to add, however, that persons who are suffering is not necessarily because they deserve it. The suffering of the innocent can be united to Christ’s and offered up for the sake of others. But I agree that God has, at times, truly intervened in human history and caused suffering on the unjust as a means of mercifully calling them to turn back to Him.

 

[Tom317]

I just like to add, however, that persons who are suffering is not necessarily because they deserve it. The suffering of the innocent can be united to Christ’s and offered up for the sake of others. But I agree that God has, at times, truly intervened in human history and caused suffering on the unjust as a means of mercifully calling them to turn back to Him.

Yes, very good point. Many people suffer as a result of another person’s sin(s) and sometimes just because of the fallen nature of humanity (due to sin).

 

[JimR-OCDS]

How do you explain death? How do you explain hell and purgatroy and the final judgment? How do you explain the great flood, Sodom and Gomorah, the Exodus, et al? In each case sin is what lead to the consequence, but it was not mankind that created the consequence, it was God. The Bible is filled with passages wherein God either sends punishment, or teaches us we must obey to avoud punishment.

It was neither God or man who created the consequences of sin, but the nature of sin itself.

If you believe God sends the chastisement, then God punishes the good along with the guilty. Which would be contradictory for a God of love and forgiveness.

But the opposite is the case. Wars are caused by men, in their evil. Natural disasters and diseases are the consequences of our fallen state. God did not create these to punish, but rather, sin put us in this place. Does nature itself rebel against sin? Could be, but who knows for sure?

Again, it was Pope John Paul II who confirms what I’m saying, when he said, “God does not send people to hell, they go their on their own.”

Jim

 

[Tom317]

It was neither God or man who created the consequences of sin, but the nature of sin itself.

That is just frankly wrong, and it ignores revealed truths of the faith. God NEVER is forced to allow any soul to go to hell; He was not forced to destroy Sodom and Gommorah; He was not forced to pronounce that Adam and Eve’s sin lead to death for all humans; on and on the list can go. God is not forced to allow anything bad to happen us. God could have creatd us perfect, without any faults at all and without any inclination to sin. Yet, that is NOT how God wanted us to be, He built in the ability to freely choose and He created us as free creatures with an ability to make our own choices. The Ten Commandments is a list of things we are absolutely not to do, and there are consequences for breaking those rules and God is the only one to create the consequences.

If you believe God sends the chastisement, then God punishes the good along with the guilty. Which would be contradictory for a God of love and forgiveness.

God is all about love and forgiveness and justice. Many modernists like to say God is only about love and forgiveness and that is pure nonsense imo. If that were true then no-one would ever go to hell and for that matter hell would not exist, neither would purgatory, neither would any sort of suffering at all. The fact that suffering an sin exists means God allows it for His greater purpose, He is God and He could erase si and suffering in a second.

But the opposite is the case. Wars are caused by men, in their evil. Natural disasters and diseases are the consequences of our fallen state. God did not create these to punish, but rather, sin put us in this place. Does nature itself rebel against sin? Could be, but who knows for sure?

No, I could not disagree more strongly. Sin leads to death, God determined that sin leads to men, we cannot determine what is eternally just for our own souls. We can only choose to love and obey, or not. God judges us on our hearts “and” on what we did in this life. Then, according to the judgment we either are saved or condemned. Jesus (God) does the judging, we do not judge our own destinies.

Again, it was Pope John Paul II who confirms what I’m saying, when he said, “God does not send people to hell, they go their on their own.”

I think JP2 was right, we choose God or satan, Heaven or hell. Yet, we must be careful to think God has no role in this. God made the rules and He made the punishment and then He told us what the rules and punishment are with the hope that all humans will listen, obey and love.

The Bible is filled with accounts of God’s discipline/chastisement upon humanity and to say it does not is simply wrong.

For over 1900 years the Church preached the truth of God’s righteous wrath, it is only over the last 30-40 years of history that people have started to reject that God righteously disciplines us. The Bible tells us that we should not reject God’s discipline, because it means God stills loves us enough to try to correct us.